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#389584 - 07/27/08 03:50 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Shonuff]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

However now you've taken the time to clearly explain yourself in a single post, I think I understand where you are coming from.




Sho, I have done this many, many times before. In fact, my above post is a re-post. I simply cut and pasted from a previous post. Here it is:

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...=3&fpart=10

I guess no one was paying attention.
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#389585 - 07/27/08 04:37 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Shonuff]
cxt Offline
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Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
Sho

And you may well be 100% correct on that...don't know myself...just talking.

My very first MA teacher was kinda "standoffish" about teaching specific applications for his kata techniques---he was worried that if he showed a "offcial" application that people being people we would think that was "THE" application and rather than develop a more flexible set of responses we would "lock in" that it was the "correct" and "only" application.

I think maybe on of the reason that few direct applications were taught is that old timers WANTED people to develop their own applications to the techniques.

Even the Goju I practice where there are specific bunkai etc--what they are really after is effective response to the chaos of a fight...not a slavish replication of an "offical" application.

My own opinion is that such applications were "hugely layered"--but they were INDIVIDUAL rather than stylistic....when I learn a new technique these days I usullay "hang it" on or around something similer I already know and practice.........which is more or less what you just said.

I'm still of the opinion..perhaps wrongly, that many of the old timers of Okinawan katate already had hands on expereince with grappling of some form or the other and simply didn't feel the need to be redundent in their karate training.

My grandfather would sometimes tell me things that he assumed that I already knew part of--such as how to take a viable cutting from a tree/plant---EVERYONE of his generation and region knew this--never occured to him that I wouldn't know how--I mentioned once about a particularly tasty starwberry--he asked me to get him a cutting--assumeing that I knew exactly how to take one, keep it alive, transport it etc.

Sorry to go so far around the barn for an example--but I sometimes wonder if some of the seeming "disconnects" we have with karate etc are due to cultural and period assumptions.

Not so much that were actually "missing" things as much as we differ in our perceptions of what were doing and why.
That the old timers taught us to do "Y" because they assumed that we already kinda knew the preceeding "X" and following "Z" as it were.

Seriously, how long and how often was karate viewed as "weaponless" art when historically it was anything but??
Almost all the old masters were trained with weapons--but many of their students simply had no interest in learning them and for most it simply was not needed anymore.

Wasn't hidden or anything--just many people simply were not interested....so for quite some time the weapon training took a "back seat" so to speak.
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#389586 - 07/27/08 04:41 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
cxt Offline
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Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
Med

I don't think so.

Most anything can be talked about here.

I also think we differ in some comparitivly significant ways in how we view/approach this topic.
_________________________
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#389587 - 07/27/08 05:40 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: cxt]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
CXT, you don't think so what? I am not comparing our arguements, just the backlash certain arguements get around here. No complaints just facts. While it is also a fact 4 months later the same arguement gets a different reaction. I call'em how I see 'em.
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#389588 - 07/27/08 06:32 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

CXT, I am not comparing our arguements, just the backlash certain arguements get around here.




Backlash to which arguments?
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#389589 - 07/27/08 09:55 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
Med

I don't think that the "mere suggestion" of things (other than style vs style arguments" ) is at all a problem around here.

I don't think that we are coming from the same place on the whole karate and grappling thing.....so we are not employing the "same" arguments...not really...so I don't see why you would say "the same argument gets a different reaction."

And on that score, I'm not asserting an overreaching belief, nor trying to convience others of its "According to Hoyle" validity..or not...or trying to establish a historical fact in the absence of such facts..I'm just talking here...and what I'm talking about is merely a personal opinion...an opinion I could very well be mistaken about.

BTW Such an upfront admission might be at least one reason that the "backlash" you seem to feel that you received has not taken place here.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#389590 - 07/28/08 12:04 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Quote:

CXT, I am not comparing our arguements, just the backlash certain arguements get around here.




Backlash to which arguments?




That okinawan kata contains grappling techs standing and on the floor.

That grappling training is a prerequisite for developing a strong base for application of okinawan karate.

That all grappling done standing in okinawan karate can also be done on the floor.
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#389591 - 07/28/08 01:07 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: cxt]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
CXT, the thing is I said nothing about us employing the "same" arguements. I simply said certain arguements are not taken well around here. And you were making an arguement with a similar subject matter to that which some people where have received considerable resistance when posting. Historical connections aside, there are certain individuals here who took considerable issue to my assertion that there is takedown defense and underhooks in kata. And this is in the absence of any historical connections on my part. Understand that its not about trying to convince anyone of anything. I simply state my opinions. I mean, its weird because people get really angry when people simply give their view on karate related stuff, but I guess that's what averaging 10 posts a day on this forum will do to people.
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#389592 - 07/28/08 02:00 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
Med

And other than "which style is best" or "MMA vs X" I disgree that "certain arguments" are not taken well around here."

I have no interest in your perceptions of being involved in a "somebody done somebody wrong song" (Charle Pride????Charlie Rich??? Gorden Lightfoot???) on this issue...its not that I don't care..its simply that lacking a time machine there is nothing I can do about it....what happned "4 months ago" happned--but this is not "4 months ago" its today---or "yesterday" as the clock tells me. I can only address what is going on NOW.

More to the point--if you and I are in agreement that you and I are using somewhat DIFFERENT lines of reasoning--which you have said multiple time BTW, than it would be resonable to conclude that they might engender a DIFFERENT response.

In short, if were doing kinda different things is probably NOT the "subject matter" that explains a preceived or actual, different response.



Edited by cxt (07/28/08 02:13 AM)

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#389593 - 07/28/08 02:16 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: cxt]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Exactly CXT, that's that bull'ish. When people respond ignorantly just because they didn't like the tone of one's post and ignore the information contained in the post, well, that's just crazy. But I guess people are here for different reasons. Some like to be sweet talked and others are here for real serious discussion.
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