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#389564 - 04/04/08 01:05 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

I apologize for over-estimating your reading comprehension.




I guess I am not the only one who "digs" this forum. Comprendo? And I'm the one with no class?
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#389565 - 04/05/08 07:03 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
Mark Hill Offline
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Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
Shonuff...what decides the context of kata?
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#389566 - 04/05/08 09:32 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Mark Hill]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
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Mark

I was saying that an individual movement has a context decided by the preceding and following movements. There's no point having a choke application if the preceding or following movements don't fit.
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#389567 - 04/05/08 09:48 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Shonuff]
shoshinkan Offline
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Quote:

Mark

I was saying that an individual movement has a context decided by the preceding and following movements. There's no point having a choke application if the preceding or following movements don't fit.




a major point in relation to the subject IMO,
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#389568 - 04/05/08 12:40 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: shoshinkan]
medulanet Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

Mark

I was saying that an individual movement has a context decided by the preceding and following movements. There's no point having a choke application if the preceding or following movements don't fit.




a major point in relation to the subject IMO,




Yes, good point. In terms of the choke from behind, like hitting a guy in the face so you can slide to his back and apply a standing choke. Meaning any choke from behind should be proceded by a strike and a turn. Or maybe throwing your opponent to the ground before applying an arm lock while your opponent is on the ground like in Pinan Godan.
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#389569 - 04/05/08 09:57 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
Mark Hill Offline
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Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
Well that's definitely true. But you might have different applications overlapping each other.
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#389570 - 04/07/08 01:46 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Mark Hill]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
What do you mean Mark?
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#389571 - 04/08/08 12:30 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Shonuff]
Mark Hill Offline
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Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
You might have a drill for moves 1-2. But that doesn't mean we can't have a seperate drill for 1, 1-3, 2-3, 3, 3-4, 2-4 or 1-4 or even 4-5 of say, Taikyokyu Shodan...

...and every other kata.

Applications should roll with the timing. But you can't for example totally segregate (from that kata for example) 1-2 from 3 or 5 from 3-4. There might be a finishing throw or a lcok escape and counter lock etc. I think this point matters more with relation to takedowns.

But as always, just as long as it is effective.
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#389572 - 04/08/08 05:43 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Mark Hill]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Well as I said, for myself the applications I develop are limited by what I feel are the core principles of the kata and I get to these by applying a few rules to my analysis which weed out a lot of the other applications I'm presented with. I end up with relatively few applications that I'm happy with this way but the context of the technique is always kept in mind. Sometimes overlap does occur, but it is justified because all the techniques involved adhere to the rules.

So for example a sequence that goes: Punch, turn and block
I may interpret as punch (KO opponent) go onto something else, AND strike and grab then throw.
This works because App 1 may not KO the opponent so you move into App 2.
Turns to me are natural breaks in kata sequences. They can indicate throws but interpreting every turn as a throw I think is an error. Sometimes it is what it is.
In Heian Shodan (Pinan nidan) the first 270degree turn into low block is clearly a throw. The second 270 turn, less so. Heians are especially good for this kind of contextual study because as well as moves being taken in sequence there is also 4 other kata to consider. The type of throw that could be indicated in the second 270 turn of H1 is much more explicitly shown in H3, so why force fit it into place when there is plenty other stuff going on in the kata. Not to mention that the Heian were never meant as more than basic self defense, IMO they are the Okinawan equivalent of "Street Smart Self Defense in 6 weeks".

Incidentally many Kata analyses seem to focus on throwing the opponent to the floor after he's been hit. I say just hit him again until he falls to the floor without assistance. Contrary to popular belief this can and does happen and is usually much easier than throwing someone (hence more often than not where I wrote throw above I'd have actually decided on a joint lock, not to restrain, but to open for more striking).
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#389573 - 04/08/08 07:07 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Shonuff]
Mark Hill Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
I do the 1st spin as a step under armlock (seen in Hapkido), into a wristlock and then strike.

I do the second one the same except the different weight distribution controls your opponent more and the 2nd block is a joint attack.
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