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#389554 - 04/03/08 02:17 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Guys,

you all 'big boys' now so please play nicely on the forum, feel free to argue with each other and get personal via pm or the thread closes.
_________________________
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www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#389555 - 04/03/08 02:47 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Med -



Very tiresome. You know very well that Brian and the rest of "us" were referring to grappling in the groundfighting, submission sense. You are the one that has framed it as stand-up to ground now.

FWIW, I don't think that anyone threatening anyone online is cool. Although I don't remember reading that.

And you are welcome to be my "E-buddy", too.




Please Matt, quote me where I said that grappling as applied to karate/kata is done as is in submission grappling where both guys are lying on the ground rolling around. Understand that I am talking about grappling as it is related to fighting, not sport, there is a difference. The BJJ hype machine says there is not but they are wrong, so I guess I am not the only one who succumbs to marketing schemes. The fact is if you could find it you would have posted it. I have never said such a thing. The reason is you have one understanding of grappling in karate and I have another. You decided to impose your beliefs on me and assume that we shared similar beliefs. We do not. Its one thing to discuss, and its another to want to be right so bad that you fail to understand what others write. I have alway stated that grappling on the ground is secondary in karate and stand up is first. I have always said that the purpose of karate when put on the ground is to get back to your feet. I have always said that grappling training is a supplementary exercise in karate. I have always said that you apply grappling skill to karate in the same way you would apply speed or strength training. Therefore, if logical reasoning were applied then one would not apply submission grappling to karate by laying on the ground and rolling around grappling much in the same way one would not apply strength training to karate by doing push ups as someone is punching you.
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#389556 - 04/03/08 02:55 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Quote:

You decided to impose your beliefs on me and assume that we shared similar beliefs. We do not. Its one thing to discuss, and its another to want to be right so bad that you fail to understand what others write.




You got that much right.

I do find it amusing that anyone that disagrees with you is automatically trying to "impose beliefs" instead of discussing, and that you are never wrong about anything. Ever.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#389557 - 04/03/08 03:08 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Quote:

You decided to impose your beliefs on me and assume that we shared similar beliefs. We do not. Its one thing to discuss, and its another to want to be right so bad that you fail to understand what others write.




You got that much right.

I do find it amusing that anyone that disagrees with you is automatically trying to "impose beliefs" instead of discussing, and that you are never wrong about anything. Ever.




No, its not disagreement, its stuff like this:

Quote:

You know very well that Brian and the rest of "us" were referring to grappling in the groundfighting, submission sense.




How or why do I "know very well" that when I am discussing groundfighting as it relates to karate/kata/fighting you are assuming I am talking about groundfighting as it relates to submission wrestling? Now, when I talk about submission wrestling as it relates to tegumi, then I am talking about submission wrestling. However, when I am talking about groundfighting as it relates to karate, I am not talking about submission wrestling. But I have stated that it is the grappling skill that translates from submission wresting when using techniques from kata to fight on the ground. However, this statement apparently makes you believe I am still talking about submission wrestling. You see, when you assume that I "know very well" that when I said one thing you thought another, you are imposing your beliefs on me. You could have said, I misunderstood what you were saying medulanet. However, you placed the blame solely on me because I "knew very well" that you were only talking about submission grappling when it comes to groundfighting in karate.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#389558 - 04/03/08 05:43 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Ok, I didn't wanna bring out the big guns but you guys have made me, if you watch this fight between two great Karateka, what's most noticable is no groundfighting, the fight starts at about 1:00:

I should warn you, this is brutal, no holds barred stuff, may not be suitable for the young ones.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDCnGtrdxes


Edited by Zach_Zinn (04/03/08 06:01 PM)

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#389559 - 04/03/08 06:38 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
medulanet,

Why are you attacking me where I'm not even posting? You just brought up posts I have made and used them out of context just to try and discredit me? Grow up dude.

Teres are grappling applications in kata,not groundfighting,duh.

Quit being an ass.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#389560 - 04/03/08 07:14 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: BrianS]
Mark Hill Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
Shonuff: Gankaku and Sochin were the last katas I learned (i.e I have not practiced them at all for a meaningful period of time). From what I've seen, your ideas are sound.

I don't disagree with the block/punch applications either. My suggestions are that each fine motor movement is there for a reason, you don't do any thing that is silly in a fight (i.e enter their open side without disrupting their balance) and still train to strike vulnerable points and manouvere to be in a superior position.

I think a lower block and punch is that and so much more.

To add to this takedown repitoire, the first move in Enpi is a armbar takedown into a pin on the arm. It hurts like hell.
_________________________
It takes a village to stone somebody to death.

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#389561 - 04/04/08 08:59 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Mark Hill]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 602
Loc: London, UK
Mark,

I agree about using all the parts of each movement but I think I tend to go for more percussive applications from the sound of your posts. One of the things I enjoy about Shotokan are the many subtleties (and the fact that they are actually subtle) within the movements.

Quote:

I think a lower block and punch is that and so much more.




Agreed, however I refuse to go as far as the folks who wrote 75 Down Blocks! I'm of the opinion that the applications to a movement are limited by it's context within a kata, and that kata or groups of kata are either based around either a particular concept or are designed to be closed stand-alone fighting systems or both.
Thus when studying a kata it's the guiding principle I seek out and any applications I haven't figured out by that point usually become clear from there.

While people can see anything they want in a movement, especially if you add a Kakushite element (not that I think there's anything wrong with kakushite applications) I don't see the benefit in having too broad a study.

With that said I think the kata with particular leaning towards grappling are Gankaku, Bassai Dai and Heian's 3 and 5.

That said, once the explicit skills of a kata/system have been mastered the principles must be expanded upon. It is here my view and Victor Smiths match up, in that I see kata as a long term means of energy development, energy which trancsends form and application and which may be applied in any which way it is required.
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It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#389562 - 04/04/08 10:02 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

How or why do I "know very well" that when I am discussing groundfighting as it relates to karate/kata/fighting you are assuming I am talking about groundfighting as it relates to submission wrestling?




How indeed.

Quote:

and its another to want to be right so bad that you fail to understand what others write.




But that can't possibly be YOU, huh, med? Because you're never wrong.

Quote:

You see, when you assume that I "know very well" that when I said one thing you thought another, you are imposing your beliefs on me.




Or you are being deceptive.

Quote:

You could have said, I misunderstood what you were saying medulanet. However, you placed the blame solely on me because I "knew very well" that you were only talking about submission grappling when it comes to groundfighting in karate.




I apologize for over-estimating your reading comprehension.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#389563 - 04/04/08 10:51 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: MattJ]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Ah....never mind the above. I will peace out at this point. Apologies for going off topic.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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