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#389594 - 07/28/08 02:53 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
cxt Offline
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Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5811
Loc: USA
Med

Casting/assumeing any and all disagreement as "bull$%^" is inaccurate and insulting.

Casting/assuming everyone whom disagrees as only responding to "sweet talk" is inaccurate and insulting.

Casting/assuming people as "ignorant" because they disagree with you is inaccurate and insulting.....everybody is "ignorant" about something----but not because they disagree with you.

Casting/assuming that people "ignore" information becasue they "don't like the tone" is inaccurate and insulting/

In fact saying to me "exactly" as if I agree with you when I have spent the last several posts rather carefully laying out my DISAGREEMENT with your postion is kinda offputting to me.

I most certainly DO NOT agree with you that people are "ignorant" need to be "sweet talked" and what they have to say is "bull$%^&" just becasue they disagree with your POV and its defense.

I said nothing like your "exactly" implies--I most certainly DON'T agree with you on ANY of that last post.

Please do not speak as if I did.
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#389595 - 07/28/08 11:24 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: cxt]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Ignorance is not disagreeing with me. It is accusing me of trying to dishonestly sell my karate to anyone by making up stuff. And I am sure the people on here who did so teach karate to kids at a community center in the inner city for next to nothing. In fact, I am sure that these same people offered to teach for free when they were not allowed to teach continuously without 2 month breaks so that the kids could really learn. I'm not the only one who does this and there are many who do much more, but there are too many people here on that bull. That is ignorance. Now who is being inaccurate and insulting to who? When I am insulted here no one says jack(well, except Shoshinkan who pointed out the injustice initially). Figures.

Please don't pretend to know what I am talking about when you don't. Just ask next time.
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#389596 - 07/28/08 11:51 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
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Quote:

That okinawan kata contains grappling techs standing and on the floor.




If you mean in the historical sense, then I do disagree with that. Very little evidence to show ground technique applications in kata before the advent of the UFC.

Quote:

That grappling training is a prerequisite for developing a strong base for application of okinawan karate.




I have never disagreed with that, for application of any art.

Quote:

That all grappling done standing in okinawan karate can also be done on the floor.




Again, no disagreement that kata techniques *can* be made to apply to ground-fighting. Really only disagreeing on the historical thing.
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#389597 - 07/28/08 12:15 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 602
Loc: London, UK
Quote:


Please don't pretend to know what I am talking about when you don't. Just ask next time.




Or you could become a better communicator so folks don't have to ask.

Yes Med, you reposted something from an earlier thread. If you look at that thread, after you made that post, I didn't feel the need to post again. That was because you took the time to clearly explain your viewpoint, which I still contend is entirely different from your initial statements that set off all those Karate grappling arguments.

That Karateka adapt their grappling to fight on the ground is one argument. That grappling was a prerequisite of Karate is something else. That the Okinawan progenitors of Karate taught and practiced grappling for use on the ground is something different again.

At various times you have made all of these arguments, starting with the lattermost and gradually morphing to the former as your position became more and more untennable in the face of the counter arguments put to you.

I still disagree with you because I don't feel that ground grappling has ever been a particularly foccused on skill at any point in world martial history except for gladiatorial matches and as the most desperate last resort on a battlefield or SD situation. I think if fighters went to the floor then they did what they had to in order to get up before the other guy and that was the extent that the ground was acknowledged in MA training.

What I think probably held the place in Karate training that you seem to feel was held by grappling was actually weapons. Assailants would've had them so disarming and using whatever came to hand would IMO have been an important area of MA training. As CXT pointed out weapons are something we actually know were taught and passed on but died out in many schools due to lack of interest (and I suspect the sweeping cultural changes that turned many martial arts into philosophical schools of self betterment was part of that).


Edited by Shonuff (07/28/08 12:16 PM)
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#389598 - 07/28/08 12:38 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Shonuff]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Sho, at what point did I say that the ground fighting in kata was for something other than a desperate last option SD situation?
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#389599 - 07/28/08 12:41 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Quote:

That okinawan kata contains grappling techs standing and on the floor.




If you mean in the historical sense, then I do disagree with that. Very little evidence to show ground technique applications in kata before the advent of the UFC.

Quote:

That grappling training is a prerequisite for developing a strong base for application of okinawan karate.




I have never disagreed with that, for application of any art.

Quote:

That all grappling done standing in okinawan karate can also be done on the floor.




Again, no disagreement that kata techniques *can* be made to apply to ground-fighting. Really only disagreeing on the historical thing.




Well, you tried to add the historical thing to your response even though I thought we were not talking about these issues in a historical perspective. However, I believe you are saying that the first arguement you do not agree with and the last two you do. Is that correct?
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#389600 - 07/28/08 12:51 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Shonuff]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

That Karateka adapt their grappling to fight on the ground is one argument. That grappling was a prerequisite of Karate is something else. That the Okinawan progenitors of Karate taught and practiced grappling for use on the ground is something different again.

At various times you have made all of these arguments, starting with the lattermost and gradually morphing to the former as your position became more and more untennable in the face of the counter arguments put to you.




Wrong again Sho. Its not a morphing arguement, but a complete strain of understanding of okinawan karate. I have always made all of these arguements since I began posting on the subject. The thing is I did not begin by speaking of these skills historically. It was the others who were lost(pun intended) on my initial posts who requested historical links, which I had and gave. I would point out the grappling techs from kata. Someone would say that there are no ground grappling techs in kata. I would relate specific techniques and give their modern equivalent. Then I would explain that just like striking skill grappling skill is gained from actually grappling, not performing kata. I then referrenced karate men who were trained in grappling in preperation for karate training. I then attempted to explain who standing grappling relates to ground grappling. Especially since there were a lot of people with no grappling training commenting I wanted to explain how techniques in grappling crossover in all stages. For example in wrestling there are moves called the granby roll and a switch. They can be hit both standing and on the ground and they are fundementally the same whether standing or on the ground. This has always been my argument.
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#389601 - 07/28/08 12:54 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 602
Loc: London, UK
At the point where you said: what would the Okinanwan masters have done if they fought someone and it went to the ground? Would they just give up, or would they use what they knew to win it on the ground.
That thinking ignores the idea of just getting up again.

Either way, what I typed above may or may not be relevant and is certainly something I won't argue over. The fact is that I wasn't saying you said grappling was for anything different in my post, I was expressing my view.



Edited by Shonuff (07/28/08 12:56 PM)
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#389602 - 07/28/08 01:06 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Shonuff]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Actally I don't believe I ever said "win it on the ground." I have simply referred to not giving up and continuing to fight if put on the ground.
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#389603 - 07/28/08 01:20 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Online   happy
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Quote:

Well, you tried to add the historical thing to your response even though I thought we were not talking about these issues in a historical perspective.




Well, perhaps that has been part of the problem. The scope of the initial question could be read either way (meaning to contain historical reference or not). To say that "okinawan kata contains grappling techs standing and on the floor" seems to imply that those applications were:

(A) practiced by those that created the kata

and/or

(B) transmitted to others

Which does not *seem* to be the case. Are you claiming those types of things? If not, then you have been disagreeing with me for no reason.

Quote:

However, I believe you are saying that the first arguement you do not agree with and the last two you do. Is that correct?




Within the scope of my above qualifier, yes.
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