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#389524 - 04/02/08 07:44 PM No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling
Mark Hill Offline
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Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
I've taken the advice of others and decided to discuss takedown applications on a seperate thread. From the stoush:

You don't learn how to fight on the ground in kata in the same way you don't learn modern boxing from kata. However, kata teaches "groundfighting" or more correclty fighting to the ground to a limited extent. [I'll also add there is a lot of coutners to takedowns].

Move 9 Heian Shodan - throw/takedown [I'll add it can be done to either arm, spinning into it can lead into a nasty fingerlock which sets up the oppponent well for the next punch in the back].

Moves 1-2, 3-4 Heain Nidan - from double grab, grip on outside of arms, lock opponents arms out against each other, trip, takedown, switch orientation and double shoulder lock and knee control to back of head.

Heian Sandan - stomps/kicks - application of trapping kick to takedown, leglock, double and triple augmented (now hands free) leg lock

Heian Yondan - x block/reinforced inner block - leglock takedown

Heian Godan - reinforced uppercut/jump/reinforced inner block - armbar into piledriver/throw/choke

"swastika posture" - leg/body takedown

Bassai Dai - Opening salutation - sprawl, [double] shoulder lock, knee to head and control

Also parry tackle, arm control, strike the head into single shoudler lock/head control

Jion - slow double lower block into knee/fast lower blocks step into double inner blocks:

evade grab, control arms, headbut, trip/leglock into throw and hip lock (painful)

Enpi 1st move - armbar into takedown, lock out shoulder and apply wristlock (opponent becomes huddled over)

2nd Move - rise and dislocate shoulder

or 1st move armbar into takedown (more fluid and circular, reach in at end)

2nd - head control/neck crank standing or control front leg and dump then apply leg leg lock standing (3rd 4th moves) neck crank moves into head throw

skip is tripping or throwing sequence (well known)

fudo dachi into jump and step back knifehand (actually superfluous)

armbar into throw using opponents leg or head control, then use "squatting" choke or leg lock (hands free using legs)

Bassai Sho - 1st slow pressing block into hammerfist/lowerblock doble strike (3rd and 4th moves)

armbar like from enpi, into takedown and figure four control

Hangetsu - refer to Seisan and Hakatsuru - very rich in controls, chokes and takedowns. The last pull/step over/kick/step/block/palm heel sequence is a good tripping sequence that ends in your opponent facing the other way, seated and with fingers jammed into their triple heater, point of jaw, neck and shoulder PPs.

Kanku Sho, Dai, Chinte, Unsu - besides groundkicks, some throws that repeat themselves. Apparently there is a scissors defense to being in a vulnerable grappling position in Kanku Dai.
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#389525 - 04/02/08 07:53 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Mark Hill]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Mark that's great stuff but for the purposes of clarification, no one has argued about things like takedowns, I think it's unanimously agreed that those exist in kata.

Cool stuff nonetheless, unfortunately I don't remember most of the Shorin kata well enough to be able to place these, got pictures by chance?

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#389526 - 04/02/08 08:24 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Mark Hill Offline
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You tubing Shotokan kata would help you the most in understanding my above applications. Its what we do at Black Belt level. Our Heians have more striking as opposed to shifting like in moves 1-6 of Heian godan if that helps.
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#389527 - 04/02/08 09:42 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Mark that's great stuff but for the purposes of clarification, no one has argued about things like takedowns, I think it's unanimously agreed that those exist in kata.




Actually they have argued about many different types of takedowns not being in kata. Just search through the posts in the grappling in karate threads.
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#389528 - 04/02/08 09:55 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA


Quote:

Actually they have argued about many different types of takedowns not being in kata. Just search through the posts in the grappling in karate threads.






Sigh....here we go...I don't remember that, in fact what I remember is everyone agreeing there are locks, throws, takedowns etc. but there being disagreement on the existence of dedicated submission style grappling in kata.

I concede that possibly you're correct and someone said there were no takedowns (though I find it unlikely), but if so it certainly wasn't me.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (04/02/08 09:56 PM)

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#389529 - 04/02/08 10:05 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Mark Hill]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Bassai Dai - Opening salutation - sprawl, [double] shoulder lock, knee to head and control




Can you elaborate a bit on this one? I found a couple shotokan versions of Bassai and I don't get where this would come in.

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#389530 - 04/02/08 10:27 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Mark Hill Offline
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Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
Note all of the fine motor movement. Also, there is a variation where the salutation is like that of Jion (up higher). In some Okinawan versions, you would begin high and straighten out the arms low, which can be the augmentation of another armlock application or taking a trapped person(from the failed tackle/shoot) to the ground.
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#389531 - 04/03/08 12:13 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Mark Hill]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
I think you need a definition of what the term 'groundfighting' is and isn't by popular use of the word.
Throwing someone on the ground and submitting them while on one knee is not groundfighting. takedowns and finishes are not groundfighting.

groundfighing is when your opponent AND yourself have more than feet/knee or hands touching the floor, and both opponents are FULL-BODY grappling for dominance to either get away to stand up and run or submit the opponent from the ground to the ground.


Does kata contain the body mechanics necessary to specifically illustrate full-body grappling principles? no. how do we know that? there are no karate kata which contain principles which can only be interpreted as on the ground-specific technique. how do we know that? there are no karate kata with a performers body touching the ground. for instance: you won't see principles in kata which could only be interpreted as defense against someone taking the top mount: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksUGmFz3wrI

in order to show those specific principles in the form of kata, the performer would have to be on their back when doing so. there are no karate katas like that. nor has the principles been illustrated in a karate book prior to the 1990's. nor have I read in any interviews of any pioneering karate master or their students describe such principles or even hint that they are part of their kata practice. This was only a phenomenon post 1990. If someone chose to train that way, it was their own invention via other-art training and not handed down thru kata as such.


is there overlap to some grappling techniques? that is, for instance, can you perform an arm bar more or less the same way on the ground as you can standing...sure, absolutely. you can also perform an arm bar underwater, does that make the kata designed to show underwater fighting principles?


and why stop there...you can probably pull-off an arm bar while sitting down, or free-falling in the sky at 5,000 feet. so, yes, you can perform some principles that kata has and apply it in various predicaments. but it doesn't change the fact that kata was shown and was handed down shown while standing on 2 feet - that is, prior to some people feeling inadequite for not having groundfighting in their art - most likely after seeing an early UFC and being horified. lol

so now karate has ALWAYS had groundfighting principles within the kata?...riiiight. what a coincidence. Anyone have any pictures of any master or any teacher or any practictioner demonstrating defenses found in kata while on his back?


don't try to confuse 'training drills' with kata. ne-waza has been combined from judo and jujitsu into karate for a while (we had ne-waza and kakie drills in Goju in the 70's). but before the 1990's, nobody felt the need to force a reconcilliation of the drills to kata.

it would have seemed as silly as trying to reconstruct hojo undo movements from kata.

if you have groundfighting in your karate, thats great - but it's a supplimental. just as some aspects of judo and jujitsu training have been borrowed into schools of karate over the past hundred years, so too some schools choose to borrow from various modern grappling arts.

which is great, but to think it's always been there and handed down thru kata, is not only an attempt to invent history, it detracts away from the focus of what kata is suited for: inspiring a standing defense.

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#389532 - 04/03/08 01:14 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Ed_Morris]
Mark Hill Offline
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Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
Ed - you're so angry - I am perplexed as to why. I want to discuss takedowns and complimentary finishing moves. This is as close as kata gets to groundfighting. That was my point in the other thread. Why note compare notes?

I can't get the gist of your complaint. I'm saying that kata has several techniques that lead into grappling, or that use pinning or slamming techniques that finish an opponent.

I don't get why you are banging on about coincidence - they aren't coincidences I really claim occur.

The self defence moves I've described aren't training drills. They are true to form self defence movements that very closely resemble to kata.

I don't disagree with you. But you think you disagree with me. I think you've wandered into the wrong thread. I want to discuss takedown and finishing techniques from there.

Re read the title of the thread. "No Grappling In Kata - Enter Into Grappling"

I am sort of impyling that I think karate is limited to here, but it also smart to finish someone as you or shortly after you take them down. You wouldn't disarm another sowrdsman only to throw away your sword as well and start fighting standup.
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#389533 - 04/03/08 01:38 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Mark Hill]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
angry? sorry you read it that way. if I were any more relaxed I'd be sleeping....which, come to think of it, it's almost nap time.

grappling, sweeps, takedowns, finishes - yep, kata can inspire those practices. sorry I mistook your initial post.

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