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#389524 - 04/02/08 07:44 PM No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling
Mark Hill Offline
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Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
I've taken the advice of others and decided to discuss takedown applications on a seperate thread. From the stoush:

You don't learn how to fight on the ground in kata in the same way you don't learn modern boxing from kata. However, kata teaches "groundfighting" or more correclty fighting to the ground to a limited extent. [I'll also add there is a lot of coutners to takedowns].

Move 9 Heian Shodan - throw/takedown [I'll add it can be done to either arm, spinning into it can lead into a nasty fingerlock which sets up the oppponent well for the next punch in the back].

Moves 1-2, 3-4 Heain Nidan - from double grab, grip on outside of arms, lock opponents arms out against each other, trip, takedown, switch orientation and double shoulder lock and knee control to back of head.

Heian Sandan - stomps/kicks - application of trapping kick to takedown, leglock, double and triple augmented (now hands free) leg lock

Heian Yondan - x block/reinforced inner block - leglock takedown

Heian Godan - reinforced uppercut/jump/reinforced inner block - armbar into piledriver/throw/choke

"swastika posture" - leg/body takedown

Bassai Dai - Opening salutation - sprawl, [double] shoulder lock, knee to head and control

Also parry tackle, arm control, strike the head into single shoudler lock/head control

Jion - slow double lower block into knee/fast lower blocks step into double inner blocks:

evade grab, control arms, headbut, trip/leglock into throw and hip lock (painful)

Enpi 1st move - armbar into takedown, lock out shoulder and apply wristlock (opponent becomes huddled over)

2nd Move - rise and dislocate shoulder

or 1st move armbar into takedown (more fluid and circular, reach in at end)

2nd - head control/neck crank standing or control front leg and dump then apply leg leg lock standing (3rd 4th moves) neck crank moves into head throw

skip is tripping or throwing sequence (well known)

fudo dachi into jump and step back knifehand (actually superfluous)

armbar into throw using opponents leg or head control, then use "squatting" choke or leg lock (hands free using legs)

Bassai Sho - 1st slow pressing block into hammerfist/lowerblock doble strike (3rd and 4th moves)

armbar like from enpi, into takedown and figure four control

Hangetsu - refer to Seisan and Hakatsuru - very rich in controls, chokes and takedowns. The last pull/step over/kick/step/block/palm heel sequence is a good tripping sequence that ends in your opponent facing the other way, seated and with fingers jammed into their triple heater, point of jaw, neck and shoulder PPs.

Kanku Sho, Dai, Chinte, Unsu - besides groundkicks, some throws that repeat themselves. Apparently there is a scissors defense to being in a vulnerable grappling position in Kanku Dai.
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#389525 - 04/02/08 07:53 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Mark Hill]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Mark that's great stuff but for the purposes of clarification, no one has argued about things like takedowns, I think it's unanimously agreed that those exist in kata.

Cool stuff nonetheless, unfortunately I don't remember most of the Shorin kata well enough to be able to place these, got pictures by chance?

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#389526 - 04/02/08 08:24 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Mark Hill Offline
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You tubing Shotokan kata would help you the most in understanding my above applications. Its what we do at Black Belt level. Our Heians have more striking as opposed to shifting like in moves 1-6 of Heian godan if that helps.
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#389527 - 04/02/08 09:42 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Mark that's great stuff but for the purposes of clarification, no one has argued about things like takedowns, I think it's unanimously agreed that those exist in kata.




Actually they have argued about many different types of takedowns not being in kata. Just search through the posts in the grappling in karate threads.
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#389528 - 04/02/08 09:55 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA


Quote:

Actually they have argued about many different types of takedowns not being in kata. Just search through the posts in the grappling in karate threads.






Sigh....here we go...I don't remember that, in fact what I remember is everyone agreeing there are locks, throws, takedowns etc. but there being disagreement on the existence of dedicated submission style grappling in kata.

I concede that possibly you're correct and someone said there were no takedowns (though I find it unlikely), but if so it certainly wasn't me.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (04/02/08 09:56 PM)

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#389529 - 04/02/08 10:05 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Mark Hill]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
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Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Bassai Dai - Opening salutation - sprawl, [double] shoulder lock, knee to head and control




Can you elaborate a bit on this one? I found a couple shotokan versions of Bassai and I don't get where this would come in.

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#389530 - 04/02/08 10:27 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Mark Hill Offline
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Loc: Australia
Note all of the fine motor movement. Also, there is a variation where the salutation is like that of Jion (up higher). In some Okinawan versions, you would begin high and straighten out the arms low, which can be the augmentation of another armlock application or taking a trapped person(from the failed tackle/shoot) to the ground.
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#389531 - 04/03/08 12:13 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Mark Hill]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I think you need a definition of what the term 'groundfighting' is and isn't by popular use of the word.
Throwing someone on the ground and submitting them while on one knee is not groundfighting. takedowns and finishes are not groundfighting.

groundfighing is when your opponent AND yourself have more than feet/knee or hands touching the floor, and both opponents are FULL-BODY grappling for dominance to either get away to stand up and run or submit the opponent from the ground to the ground.


Does kata contain the body mechanics necessary to specifically illustrate full-body grappling principles? no. how do we know that? there are no karate kata which contain principles which can only be interpreted as on the ground-specific technique. how do we know that? there are no karate kata with a performers body touching the ground. for instance: you won't see principles in kata which could only be interpreted as defense against someone taking the top mount: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksUGmFz3wrI

in order to show those specific principles in the form of kata, the performer would have to be on their back when doing so. there are no karate katas like that. nor has the principles been illustrated in a karate book prior to the 1990's. nor have I read in any interviews of any pioneering karate master or their students describe such principles or even hint that they are part of their kata practice. This was only a phenomenon post 1990. If someone chose to train that way, it was their own invention via other-art training and not handed down thru kata as such.


is there overlap to some grappling techniques? that is, for instance, can you perform an arm bar more or less the same way on the ground as you can standing...sure, absolutely. you can also perform an arm bar underwater, does that make the kata designed to show underwater fighting principles?


and why stop there...you can probably pull-off an arm bar while sitting down, or free-falling in the sky at 5,000 feet. so, yes, you can perform some principles that kata has and apply it in various predicaments. but it doesn't change the fact that kata was shown and was handed down shown while standing on 2 feet - that is, prior to some people feeling inadequite for not having groundfighting in their art - most likely after seeing an early UFC and being horified. lol

so now karate has ALWAYS had groundfighting principles within the kata?...riiiight. what a coincidence. Anyone have any pictures of any master or any teacher or any practictioner demonstrating defenses found in kata while on his back?


don't try to confuse 'training drills' with kata. ne-waza has been combined from judo and jujitsu into karate for a while (we had ne-waza and kakie drills in Goju in the 70's). but before the 1990's, nobody felt the need to force a reconcilliation of the drills to kata.

it would have seemed as silly as trying to reconstruct hojo undo movements from kata.

if you have groundfighting in your karate, thats great - but it's a supplimental. just as some aspects of judo and jujitsu training have been borrowed into schools of karate over the past hundred years, so too some schools choose to borrow from various modern grappling arts.

which is great, but to think it's always been there and handed down thru kata, is not only an attempt to invent history, it detracts away from the focus of what kata is suited for: inspiring a standing defense.

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#389532 - 04/03/08 01:14 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Ed_Morris]
Mark Hill Offline
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Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
Ed - you're so angry - I am perplexed as to why. I want to discuss takedowns and complimentary finishing moves. This is as close as kata gets to groundfighting. That was my point in the other thread. Why note compare notes?

I can't get the gist of your complaint. I'm saying that kata has several techniques that lead into grappling, or that use pinning or slamming techniques that finish an opponent.

I don't get why you are banging on about coincidence - they aren't coincidences I really claim occur.

The self defence moves I've described aren't training drills. They are true to form self defence movements that very closely resemble to kata.

I don't disagree with you. But you think you disagree with me. I think you've wandered into the wrong thread. I want to discuss takedown and finishing techniques from there.

Re read the title of the thread. "No Grappling In Kata - Enter Into Grappling"

I am sort of impyling that I think karate is limited to here, but it also smart to finish someone as you or shortly after you take them down. You wouldn't disarm another sowrdsman only to throw away your sword as well and start fighting standup.
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#389533 - 04/03/08 01:38 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Mark Hill]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
angry? sorry you read it that way. if I were any more relaxed I'd be sleeping....which, come to think of it, it's almost nap time.

grappling, sweeps, takedowns, finishes - yep, kata can inspire those practices. sorry I mistook your initial post.

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#389534 - 04/03/08 01:38 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Sigh....here we go...I don't remember that, in fact what I remember is everyone agreeing there are locks, throws, takedowns etc. but there being disagreement on the existence of dedicated submission style grappling in kata.

I concede that possibly you're correct and someone said there were no takedowns (though I find it unlikely), but if so it certainly wasn't me.




Zach, welcome to the digital version of Genko Biloba.

A few B.S. quotes:

Quote:

I guess I just wasn't trained in the way of ultimate groundfighting karate,lol.(Not saying I can't do those things, I'm just saying it was integrated)

Naihanchi does not contain ground escapes, otherwise you would be on your back when doing it, wouldn't you? People have some imigination!!

When did you start training medulanet? Ask some folks around here who started in the sixties and seventies if karate has a double leg takedown.
Wrestling is not a part of karate either. It is what is, nothing more.
Jointlocks, throws, strikes, kicks, pressure points,but NO DOUBLE LEG TAKEDOWNS OR GROUNDFIGHTING.

EVERY ART LACKS SOMETHING!!!!!!!!!!




and

Quote:

Which kata contains takedowns and wrestling?


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#389535 - 04/03/08 01:45 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

I think you need a definition of what the term 'groundfighting' is and isn't by popular use of the word.
Throwing someone on the ground and submitting them while on one knee is not groundfighting. takedowns and finishes are not groundfighting.

groundfighing is when your opponent AND yourself have more than feet/knee or hands touching the floor, and both opponents are FULL-BODY grappling for dominance to either get away to stand up and run or submit the opponent from the ground to the ground.




Wrong again Ed. Are you just making this stuff up and trying to make it sound good? In what world is a knee ride not groundfighting?
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#389536 - 04/03/08 02:31 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
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#389537 - 04/03/08 03:04 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Well, being as I didn't say those things, why are you repeating them to me?

Anyway I know a variation on the double leg can be found some Shorin kata so I won't dispute that, but I feel you are still picking out silly little things and ignoring the more pressing part of the argument, which is the groundfighting proper bit.

You keep changing what you define groundfighting as, when we started all this you were insisting that tegumi was functionally something akin to modern submission wrestling, and that it was intimately linked with Karate, or that was certainly my impression of your arguments.

Learning techniques that go to the ground is not the same as learning dedicated groundfighting, I assume I don't need to explain that to you though, being a wrassler and all. I know principles may carry and all that, but principles of everything effect everything else when you get general enough.

I am ok with what you do, in fact I respect it greatly, I am just not comfortable with your historical claims more than anything else.



Edited by Zach_Zinn (04/03/08 03:13 AM)

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#389538 - 04/03/08 03:15 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Well, being as I didn't say those things, why are you repeating them to me?

Anyway I know a variation on the double leg can be found some Shorin kata so I won't dispute that, but I feel you are still picking out silly little things and ignoring the more pressing part of the argument, which is the groundfighting proper bit.

You keep changing what you define groundfighting as, when we started all this you were insisting that tegumi was something akin to modern submission wrestling, and that it was intimately linked with Karate, or that was certainly my impression of your arguments.

Learning techniques that go to the ground is not the same as learning dedicated groundfighting, I assume I don't need to explain that to you though, being a wrassler and all.

I am ok with what you do, in fact I respect it greatly, I just think you should admit that your wrestling is crosstraining, not some sort of subset of your Karate.




Zach, my stance on the karate grappling issue has not changed. I have always stated that wrestling is a supplementary exercise within the karate training regimine, just like lifting weights is. Therefore, you don't wrestle so you can simply wrestle when learning to fight with your karate. Just like I don't lift weights so that I can bench press my opponent. I learn wrestling so I can obtain a good position to fight from. So that I can put my opponent on the ground and control him there while I apply my techniques (striking or joint locking). So that my opponent cannot throw me around like a rag doll and dominate me as well. Its not that my arguement is changing, its just that your understanding of what I am saying is.

Now, I posted the B.S. quotes because you seemed to believe that none of the good souls on this board would believe that takedowns were a part of karate and kata. I simply was informing you that you were mistaken. And in fact one of the main individuals attacking my assertions that karate does contain grappling/ground fighting was the main culprit.
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#389539 - 04/03/08 03:49 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
from Med -

'my stance on the karate grappling issue has not changed. I have always stated that wrestling is a supplementary exercise within the karate training regimine, just like lifting weights is. Therefore, you don't wrestle so you can simply wrestle when learning to fight with your karate. Just like I don't lift weights so that I can bench press my opponent. I learn wrestling so I can obtain a good position to fight from. So that I can put my opponent on the ground and control him there while I apply my techniques (striking or joint locking). So that my opponent cannot throw me around like a rag doll and dominate me as well. Its not that my arguement is changing, its just that your understanding of what I am saying is.'

Hey Marcel,

Now that is much clearer than what I understood personally from many of your other posts on this subject, I do think the forum written word has caused some confusion on this subject, to a degree all round.

The positional aspect (still not ground led fighting mind) for me comes from our Tegumi stand up wrestling drills and practice, which is not from kata. (to be clear the concept of Tegumi was discussed with me by a couple of Seiors, I then developed what we use)

For sure and for certain, to a point of course kata and stand up wrestling principles can be worked on the ground,

if we find outrselves there, just not as effective as a trained ground grappler who works that range, and indeed specific techniques for purpose. (but IMO certainly suitiable for self defence requirements, in the main).
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#389540 - 04/03/08 04:07 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: shoshinkan]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

The positional aspect (still not ground led fighting mind) for me comes from our Tegumi stand up wrestling drills and practice, which is not from kata. (to be clear the concept of Tegumi was discussed with me by a couple of Seiors, I then developed what we use)




And I assume that you don't practice your "tegumi" as a means enabling you to stand up wrestle your opponent in a fight, but to better apply your karate technique. Just like improved speed, strength, conditioining, etc. This is the same way ti and quan fa were integrated and transformed into tode. This is also the reason that many okinawans were trained in grappling as youths in preparation for their karate training similar to the way Kyan's father prepared him for classical karate training.
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#389541 - 04/03/08 07:33 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Zach_Zinn]
chofukainoa Offline
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Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 146
Loc: tokyo, japan
Quote:

Sigh....here we go...I don't remember that, in fact what I remember is everyone agreeing there are locks, throws, takedowns etc. but there being disagreement on the existence of dedicated submission style grappling in kata.

I concede that possibly you're correct and someone said there were no takedowns (though I find it unlikely), but if so it certainly wasn't me.




I think I did say in one thread that there were no clear takedowns or grappling techniques in the KATA of the style (Motobu udundi) I practice. But I was wrong, as I was just shown the other day a takedown application of a move I thought was just an open-hand strike.

Actually, my sensei was basically saying that most strikes can be transformed into takedowns, especially as a practitioner gets older and can't necessarily down an opponent in one blow. Generally our kata might show how to get in a position to potentially grapple, but not show the actual grapple/takedown move--but our kata are weird anyway.

I think that the clip that medulanet posted at the start of the "udundi kata anyone?" thread was Uehara sensei's demonstration of a kata more clearly incorporating grappling techniques.

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#389542 - 04/03/08 07:36 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
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Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
yes Med, pretty much what you say is why our tegumi is important to training,

It also serves another purpose that of less violent means of coping with lower level situations,

and of course the reality that our karate strikes/locks may not stand up as we wish sometimes - which means the grappling/clinch range should be worked significantly in realtion to self defence.
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www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#389543 - 04/03/08 07:41 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: shoshinkan]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

for me comes from our Tegumi stand up wrestling drills and practice, which is not from kata. (to be clear the concept of Tegumi was discussed with me by a couple of Seiors, I then developed what we use)




the standing grappling drills which you invented and choose to call 'tegumi' are not inspired from kata?

where do their principles come from? trial and error? previous or outside grappling experience?


then of course you have to hope the standing drills relate enough to groundfighting in order to justify considering it in the groundfighting category. standing grappling drills could also be imagined to apply in waterfighting, but without training in the water, can you call it waterfighting? and then relate waterfighting to kata? then, take the next leap and say kata has always been used in waterfighting. see how thats sortof silly?


I'm not disparaging art practices, I'm only pointing out our flaws of thinking for clarity of communication.


ps. could you and medulanet give definitions of groundfighting in the thread link given above. I think that would clear up where people are coming from. again, for clearer communication.

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#389544 - 04/03/08 08:58 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Ed_Morris]
Shonuff Offline
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Can you say

Mark a noble effort but you'll be lucky to get anywhere trying to discuss application, particularly of Shotokan kata.

One approach that works is discussing a single specific technique at a time, one's which are common to a variety of arts.

Good luck.

Applications 1, 4, 5, 6, 10 and 16 that you listed I concur with, the rest I apply completely differently. From the sound of things you and I have very different philosophies surrounding application of our kata: as you may have guessed I'm quite happy with many of the simple block/strike interpretations as I believe that an analysis of why they occur as they do in that particular kata leads to a deeper and more applicable understanding of fighting principles.

One kata you left out is Gankaku (chinto) which I think is probably the most grappling heavy kata in Shotokan. The most obvious throw/lock is the reverse spinning manji-uke into a kneeling x-block, i.e. a throw into a kneeling armlock. Another is the low x-block, turn 180 into reinforced low block in back stance. I look at this one as catching a kick and throwing. The following low knife hand block can work as a leg lock to the downed foe.
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#389545 - 04/03/08 09:00 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Ed_Morris]
BrianS Offline
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*yawns*
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#389546 - 04/03/08 11:03 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

Zach, welcome to the digital version of Genko Biloba.

A few B.S. quotes:

Quote:

I guess I just wasn't trained in the way of ultimate groundfighting karate,lol.(Not saying I can't do those things, I'm just saying it was integrated)

Naihanchi does not contain ground escapes, otherwise you would be on your back when doing it, wouldn't you? People have some imigination!!

When did you start training medulanet? Ask some folks around here who started in the sixties and seventies if karate has a double leg takedown.
Wrestling is not a part of karate either. It is what is, nothing more.
Jointlocks, throws, strikes, kicks, pressure points,but NO DOUBLE LEG TAKEDOWNS OR GROUNDFIGHTING.

EVERY ART LACKS SOMETHING!!!!!!!!!!




and

Quote:

Which kata contains takedowns and wrestling?







Med.......so deceptive. Why are you trying to make Brian out like he doesn't believe in ANY grappling in kata/karate.

Very disappointing, man.

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...page=0&vc=1
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#389547 - 04/03/08 11:30 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Ed_Morris]
shoshinkan Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

for me comes from our Tegumi stand up wrestling drills and practice, which is not from kata. (to be clear the concept of Tegumi was discussed with me by a couple of Seiors, I then developed what we use)




the standing grappling drills which you invented and choose to call 'tegumi' are not inspired from kata?

where do their principles come from? trial and error? previous or outside grappling experience?


then of course you have to hope the standing drills relate enough to groundfighting in order to justify considering it in the groundfighting category. standing grappling drills could also be imagined to apply in waterfighting, but without training in the water, can you call it waterfighting? and then relate waterfighting to kata? then, take the next leap and say kata has always been used in waterfighting. see how thats sortof silly?


I'm not disparaging art practices, I'm only pointing out our flaws of thinking for clarity of communication.


ps. could you and medulanet give definitions of groundfighting in the thread link given above. I think that would clear up where people are coming from. again, for clearer communication.





Hey Ed,

the tegumi basic priciples of push, pull, drop, lift and twist come from the basic mechanics of movement, and particulary combining those forces,

along with things like centreline theory, footwork concepts etc etc, leaning for leverage, using your centre to take thier balance, it is a very basic practice that is 'done' by - actual stand up wrestling drills and free work.

The actual practice of tegumi does develop a little ability, all round and certainly in relation to positional dominance, hence it has a cross use of giving some ability in ground fighting, well thats my experieince of the students anyhow. But it should be noted this is not significant ability, as indeed the core strategic position of karate is stand up, opponent down!

You gave a great description of groundfighting before somewhere (along the lines of positional dominance to effect a sub being the goal, both people on the floor etc etc.

I agree with that. In fact I agree with you on this one, so get off my back
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#389548 - 04/03/08 12:00 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: shoshinkan]
Ed_Morris Offline
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hey, no cronie-ism and no special treatment...everyone gets questions here. lol

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#389549 - 04/03/08 12:02 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Shonuff]
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you are right. sorry to have derailed the thread - no doubt there are more suitable threads discussing the topic recently!

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#389550 - 04/03/08 12:27 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

Zach, welcome to the digital version of Genko Biloba.

A few B.S. quotes:

Quote:

I guess I just wasn't trained in the way of ultimate groundfighting karate,lol.(Not saying I can't do those things, I'm just saying it was integrated)

Naihanchi does not contain ground escapes, otherwise you would be on your back when doing it, wouldn't you? People have some imigination!!

When did you start training medulanet? Ask some folks around here who started in the sixties and seventies if karate has a double leg takedown.
Wrestling is not a part of karate either. It is what is, nothing more.
Jointlocks, throws, strikes, kicks, pressure points,but NO DOUBLE LEG TAKEDOWNS OR GROUNDFIGHTING.

EVERY ART LACKS SOMETHING!!!!!!!!!!




and

Quote:

Which kata contains takedowns and wrestling?







Med.......so deceptive. Why are you trying to make Brian out like he doesn't believe in ANY grappling in kata/karate.

Very disappointing, man.

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...page=0&vc=1




Dissappointed in what? I didn't say it, BrianS did. Don't get mad at me because of what this guy posts. Why are you standing up for him if he does not post what he means? In fact, he is the number one "there is no groundfighting and little grappling in karate/kata." Oh, wait, he even says it in these posts. He had to have someone come in to teach him and his guys how to grapple and holds it as a distinctly different way of fighting from his karate. To him it is purely crosstraining and he has integrated it into what he does. And now you are actually showing proof of someone who is changing their tune, but then attack me because of these B.S. inconsistencies.
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#389551 - 04/03/08 12:59 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:


Dissappointed in what? I didn't say it, BrianS did. Don't get mad at me because of what this guy posts. Why are you standing up for him if he does not post what he means? In fact, he is the number one "there is no groundfighting and little grappling in karate/kata." Oh, wait, he even says it in these posts. He had to have someone come in to teach him and his guys how to grapple and holds it as a distinctly different way of fighting from his karate. To him it is purely crosstraining and he has integrated it into what he does. And now you are actually showing proof of someone who is changing their tune, but then attack me because of these B.S. inconsistencies.




I take it you didn't click the link I posted where Brian clearly states:

Quote:

Where in kata is groundfighting? Isn't kata done on the feet?

Chokes, yes!
Grappling, yes!
Joint locks, yes!
Throws, yes!
All of these elements are contained in kata and then some.




I don't like it when people twist facts to suit their purpose, as you are doing. And the little personal digs at him are pathetic. This is the honor and ethics you get from your training? Very disappointing.
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#389552 - 04/03/08 01:58 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
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Quote:

Quote:


Dissappointed in what? I didn't say it, BrianS did. Don't get mad at me because of what this guy posts. Why are you standing up for him if he does not post what he means? In fact, he is the number one "there is no groundfighting and little grappling in karate/kata." Oh, wait, he even says it in these posts. He had to have someone come in to teach him and his guys how to grapple and holds it as a distinctly different way of fighting from his karate. To him it is purely crosstraining and he has integrated it into what he does. And now you are actually showing proof of someone who is changing their tune, but then attack me because of these B.S. inconsistencies.




I take it you didn't click the link I posted where Brian clearly states:

Quote:

Where in kata is groundfighting? Isn't kata done on the feet?

Chokes, yes!
Grappling, yes!
Joint locks, yes!
Throws, yes!
All of these elements are contained in kata and then some.




I don't like it when people twist facts to suit their purpose, as you are doing. And the little personal digs at him are pathetic. This is the honor and ethics you get from your training? Very disappointing.




I did read it, hence the inconsistency remark. First karate doesn't have grappling and then it does. If his understanding is developing, fine, but he has made no such statements indicating this.

You decry my "digs" but say nothing of his. What gives? Oh, but your blind to that, aren't you. Because he is supporting your opinion and I am not. Or maybe because he is your e-buddy. At least I do it with style and address it on the forum where the remarks are first made for all to see. Now how many people on here really do have "honor"? And I'm the sensitive one? Interesting. Nothing new here. Heck, Brian theatened to beat me up. Now ain't that some B.S. (see, style). And no one said Jack. And you are mad about "digs". Where's your ethics now?
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#389553 - 04/03/08 02:16 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
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Med -



Very tiresome. You know very well that Brian and the rest of "us" were referring to grappling in the groundfighting, submission sense. You are the one that has framed it as stand-up to ground now.

FWIW, I don't think that anyone threatening anyone online is cool. Although I don't remember reading that.

And you are welcome to be my "E-buddy", too.
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#389554 - 04/03/08 02:17 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
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Guys,

you all 'big boys' now so please play nicely on the forum, feel free to argue with each other and get personal via pm or the thread closes.
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#389555 - 04/03/08 02:47 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
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Quote:

Med -



Very tiresome. You know very well that Brian and the rest of "us" were referring to grappling in the groundfighting, submission sense. You are the one that has framed it as stand-up to ground now.

FWIW, I don't think that anyone threatening anyone online is cool. Although I don't remember reading that.

And you are welcome to be my "E-buddy", too.




Please Matt, quote me where I said that grappling as applied to karate/kata is done as is in submission grappling where both guys are lying on the ground rolling around. Understand that I am talking about grappling as it is related to fighting, not sport, there is a difference. The BJJ hype machine says there is not but they are wrong, so I guess I am not the only one who succumbs to marketing schemes. The fact is if you could find it you would have posted it. I have never said such a thing. The reason is you have one understanding of grappling in karate and I have another. You decided to impose your beliefs on me and assume that we shared similar beliefs. We do not. Its one thing to discuss, and its another to want to be right so bad that you fail to understand what others write. I have alway stated that grappling on the ground is secondary in karate and stand up is first. I have always said that the purpose of karate when put on the ground is to get back to your feet. I have always said that grappling training is a supplementary exercise in karate. I have always said that you apply grappling skill to karate in the same way you would apply speed or strength training. Therefore, if logical reasoning were applied then one would not apply submission grappling to karate by laying on the ground and rolling around grappling much in the same way one would not apply strength training to karate by doing push ups as someone is punching you.
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#389556 - 04/03/08 02:55 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

You decided to impose your beliefs on me and assume that we shared similar beliefs. We do not. Its one thing to discuss, and its another to want to be right so bad that you fail to understand what others write.




You got that much right.

I do find it amusing that anyone that disagrees with you is automatically trying to "impose beliefs" instead of discussing, and that you are never wrong about anything. Ever.
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#389557 - 04/03/08 03:08 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

You decided to impose your beliefs on me and assume that we shared similar beliefs. We do not. Its one thing to discuss, and its another to want to be right so bad that you fail to understand what others write.




You got that much right.

I do find it amusing that anyone that disagrees with you is automatically trying to "impose beliefs" instead of discussing, and that you are never wrong about anything. Ever.




No, its not disagreement, its stuff like this:

Quote:

You know very well that Brian and the rest of "us" were referring to grappling in the groundfighting, submission sense.




How or why do I "know very well" that when I am discussing groundfighting as it relates to karate/kata/fighting you are assuming I am talking about groundfighting as it relates to submission wrestling? Now, when I talk about submission wrestling as it relates to tegumi, then I am talking about submission wrestling. However, when I am talking about groundfighting as it relates to karate, I am not talking about submission wrestling. But I have stated that it is the grappling skill that translates from submission wresting when using techniques from kata to fight on the ground. However, this statement apparently makes you believe I am still talking about submission wrestling. You see, when you assume that I "know very well" that when I said one thing you thought another, you are imposing your beliefs on me. You could have said, I misunderstood what you were saying medulanet. However, you placed the blame solely on me because I "knew very well" that you were only talking about submission grappling when it comes to groundfighting in karate.
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#389558 - 04/03/08 05:43 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
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Ok, I didn't wanna bring out the big guns but you guys have made me, if you watch this fight between two great Karateka, what's most noticable is no groundfighting, the fight starts at about 1:00:

I should warn you, this is brutal, no holds barred stuff, may not be suitable for the young ones.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDCnGtrdxes


Edited by Zach_Zinn (04/03/08 06:01 PM)

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#389559 - 04/03/08 06:38 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
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medulanet,

Why are you attacking me where I'm not even posting? You just brought up posts I have made and used them out of context just to try and discredit me? Grow up dude.

Teres are grappling applications in kata,not groundfighting,duh.

Quit being an ass.
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#389560 - 04/03/08 07:14 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: BrianS]
Mark Hill Offline
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Shonuff: Gankaku and Sochin were the last katas I learned (i.e I have not practiced them at all for a meaningful period of time). From what I've seen, your ideas are sound.

I don't disagree with the block/punch applications either. My suggestions are that each fine motor movement is there for a reason, you don't do any thing that is silly in a fight (i.e enter their open side without disrupting their balance) and still train to strike vulnerable points and manouvere to be in a superior position.

I think a lower block and punch is that and so much more.

To add to this takedown repitoire, the first move in Enpi is a armbar takedown into a pin on the arm. It hurts like hell.
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#389561 - 04/04/08 08:59 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Mark Hill]
Shonuff Offline
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Mark,

I agree about using all the parts of each movement but I think I tend to go for more percussive applications from the sound of your posts. One of the things I enjoy about Shotokan are the many subtleties (and the fact that they are actually subtle) within the movements.

Quote:

I think a lower block and punch is that and so much more.




Agreed, however I refuse to go as far as the folks who wrote 75 Down Blocks! I'm of the opinion that the applications to a movement are limited by it's context within a kata, and that kata or groups of kata are either based around either a particular concept or are designed to be closed stand-alone fighting systems or both.
Thus when studying a kata it's the guiding principle I seek out and any applications I haven't figured out by that point usually become clear from there.

While people can see anything they want in a movement, especially if you add a Kakushite element (not that I think there's anything wrong with kakushite applications) I don't see the benefit in having too broad a study.

With that said I think the kata with particular leaning towards grappling are Gankaku, Bassai Dai and Heian's 3 and 5.

That said, once the explicit skills of a kata/system have been mastered the principles must be expanded upon. It is here my view and Victor Smiths match up, in that I see kata as a long term means of energy development, energy which trancsends form and application and which may be applied in any which way it is required.
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#389562 - 04/04/08 10:02 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

How or why do I "know very well" that when I am discussing groundfighting as it relates to karate/kata/fighting you are assuming I am talking about groundfighting as it relates to submission wrestling?




How indeed.

Quote:

and its another to want to be right so bad that you fail to understand what others write.




But that can't possibly be YOU, huh, med? Because you're never wrong.

Quote:

You see, when you assume that I "know very well" that when I said one thing you thought another, you are imposing your beliefs on me.




Or you are being deceptive.

Quote:

You could have said, I misunderstood what you were saying medulanet. However, you placed the blame solely on me because I "knew very well" that you were only talking about submission grappling when it comes to groundfighting in karate.




I apologize for over-estimating your reading comprehension.
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#389563 - 04/04/08 10:51 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: MattJ]
MattJ Offline
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Ah....never mind the above. I will peace out at this point. Apologies for going off topic.
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#389564 - 04/04/08 01:05 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
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Quote:

I apologize for over-estimating your reading comprehension.




I guess I am not the only one who "digs" this forum. Comprendo? And I'm the one with no class?
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#389565 - 04/05/08 07:03 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
Mark Hill Offline
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Shonuff...what decides the context of kata?
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#389566 - 04/05/08 09:32 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Mark Hill]
Shonuff Offline
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Mark

I was saying that an individual movement has a context decided by the preceding and following movements. There's no point having a choke application if the preceding or following movements don't fit.
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#389567 - 04/05/08 09:48 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Shonuff]
shoshinkan Offline
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Quote:

Mark

I was saying that an individual movement has a context decided by the preceding and following movements. There's no point having a choke application if the preceding or following movements don't fit.




a major point in relation to the subject IMO,
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#389568 - 04/05/08 12:40 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: shoshinkan]
medulanet Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

Mark

I was saying that an individual movement has a context decided by the preceding and following movements. There's no point having a choke application if the preceding or following movements don't fit.




a major point in relation to the subject IMO,




Yes, good point. In terms of the choke from behind, like hitting a guy in the face so you can slide to his back and apply a standing choke. Meaning any choke from behind should be proceded by a strike and a turn. Or maybe throwing your opponent to the ground before applying an arm lock while your opponent is on the ground like in Pinan Godan.
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#389569 - 04/05/08 09:57 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
Mark Hill Offline
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Well that's definitely true. But you might have different applications overlapping each other.
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#389570 - 04/07/08 01:46 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Mark Hill]
Shonuff Offline
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What do you mean Mark?
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#389571 - 04/08/08 12:30 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Shonuff]
Mark Hill Offline
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You might have a drill for moves 1-2. But that doesn't mean we can't have a seperate drill for 1, 1-3, 2-3, 3, 3-4, 2-4 or 1-4 or even 4-5 of say, Taikyokyu Shodan...

...and every other kata.

Applications should roll with the timing. But you can't for example totally segregate (from that kata for example) 1-2 from 3 or 5 from 3-4. There might be a finishing throw or a lcok escape and counter lock etc. I think this point matters more with relation to takedowns.

But as always, just as long as it is effective.
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#389572 - 04/08/08 05:43 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Mark Hill]
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Well as I said, for myself the applications I develop are limited by what I feel are the core principles of the kata and I get to these by applying a few rules to my analysis which weed out a lot of the other applications I'm presented with. I end up with relatively few applications that I'm happy with this way but the context of the technique is always kept in mind. Sometimes overlap does occur, but it is justified because all the techniques involved adhere to the rules.

So for example a sequence that goes: Punch, turn and block
I may interpret as punch (KO opponent) go onto something else, AND strike and grab then throw.
This works because App 1 may not KO the opponent so you move into App 2.
Turns to me are natural breaks in kata sequences. They can indicate throws but interpreting every turn as a throw I think is an error. Sometimes it is what it is.
In Heian Shodan (Pinan nidan) the first 270degree turn into low block is clearly a throw. The second 270 turn, less so. Heians are especially good for this kind of contextual study because as well as moves being taken in sequence there is also 4 other kata to consider. The type of throw that could be indicated in the second 270 turn of H1 is much more explicitly shown in H3, so why force fit it into place when there is plenty other stuff going on in the kata. Not to mention that the Heian were never meant as more than basic self defense, IMO they are the Okinawan equivalent of "Street Smart Self Defense in 6 weeks".

Incidentally many Kata analyses seem to focus on throwing the opponent to the floor after he's been hit. I say just hit him again until he falls to the floor without assistance. Contrary to popular belief this can and does happen and is usually much easier than throwing someone (hence more often than not where I wrote throw above I'd have actually decided on a joint lock, not to restrain, but to open for more striking).
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#389573 - 04/08/08 07:07 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Shonuff]
Mark Hill Offline
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I do the 1st spin as a step under armlock (seen in Hapkido), into a wristlock and then strike.

I do the second one the same except the different weight distribution controls your opponent more and the 2nd block is a joint attack.
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#389574 - 07/24/08 06:21 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Ed_Morris]
Yudansha34 Offline
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Quote:


Does kata contain the body mechanics necessary to specifically illustrate full-body grappling principles? no. how do we know that? there are no karate kata which contain principles which can only be interpreted as on the ground-specific technique. how do we know that? there are no karate kata with a performers body touching the ground. for instance: you won't see principles in kata which could only be interpreted as defense against someone taking the top mount: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksUGmFz3wrI





You will notice in the first few combinations in the video by the original poster demonstrates a choke from the bottom guard position. Pay close attention to the footwork and leg positioning along with the hand sweep and pulling of the head.

Naihanchi Shodan demonstrates these techniques from a standing position. Watch the footwork, cross over, open hips and then cross back... its the same principle as the guard choke in the original posters video. Then take a look at the arm sweep and head pressure... compare that to the knife hand block/empi and chamber postions. Again the dynamics at work are the same.

This is just one example of ground fighting bunkai within the naihanchi kata. There are other applications like elbow strikes from the bottom position, joint locks, and sweeps from a mounted postion etc etc.

For those that may be unfamiliar with the kata here is an example on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQPsICbXoT0

I hope this helps illustrate some bunkai in kata beyond the block/kick/punch and trap/sweep/pin level. Though my knowledge is limited to my experience and Im sure this is nothing new to many. And there are others with far more understanding then I that could expand upon this area.

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#389575 - 07/24/08 07:04 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Yudansha34]
Shonuff Offline
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Hello Yudansha34

There are a number of issues I personally have with interpretations like the one you've given, though I'm sure the thread as a whole gives a clearer picture of what is wrong with ground interpretations of kata than I could alone.

The thing that I will say though is that "simple" block punch and take down interpretations of kata, in fact stand up fighting in general is a far more deep and complicated game than I think most people realize. For myself I know that there is so much for me to develop while standing that ground work would simply slow my progress.

Now we all know beyond a shadow of a doubt that one can choose to see ground applications in kata, but if it were the intention to create a kata to train ground fighting, why would the form simply not be done from kneeling or laying?
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#389576 - 07/26/08 01:16 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Shonuff]
cxt Offline
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Shonuff

I get what your saying......and I agree.

But for the sake of discussion, the answser to your question MIGHT be:

"multiple application of similar movement"

You don't do it kneeling for the simple reason that application is several rungs down the ladder.
You might very well do it kneeling if your were working that section and that specific application.

Application 1--I grab his arm and punch him dead in the face.

Application 2- I deflect his arm and lock it up in an armbar then punch him in the side of the head.

Application 3- He has taken me down so now I do "X"

Speaking in general of course.

There is a tecnique in Saifa that is a really good (so far ) defense vs a single leg takedown.
However the first application I was shown was a simple postional movement then a simple stike.
The NEXT application assumed that the strike didn't work and some grappling was needed...in that case THAT section of the bunkai is working from a nearly ground position.

AGAIN, different kata entirely.

If I had to guess that would be at least one resonable assumption.

One way to teach new movements is to work with a pre-exsiting set of already ingrained movement....you know, they are already doing "X" so you teach them to do "Y" on the FRAMEWORK of "X."

I recall reading a story (quite some time ago) about a actress that was supposed to play a sword swinging heroine in a movie...lady had never touched a sword in her life--didn't have the movements of a swordsperson--but she was an accompished dancer...so the stunt guy found a number of dance steps that was pretty close to generic sword footwork and hung her training around that....worked pretty well.

A better example was a guy that used to train with us....guy had spent years learning to box---he learned the stances and could do them well--but anytime things got fast and tense he reverted back to his orignal stances, posture and footwork-----so instead of trying to "re-wire" the guy the teacher simply taught him a seperate set of applications for his use around his former training and already ingrained habits.

NOT saying that is the case here...just specualtion on my part.
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#389577 - 07/26/08 01:57 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: cxt]
medulanet Offline
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CXT, if my experience is similar to yours, your signature battle is about to start anytime now. The mere suggestion of certain things here is apparently not taken so well.
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#389578 - 07/26/08 04:34 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
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Marcel -

Still playing the victim, I see.

Suggestions are taken fairly well here, in my experience. Arrogance and condescension, less so. Most people here agree that kata can have many applications, limited only by one's imagination. This is not a bad thing, IMHO. However, that is fundamentally different from saying that certain applications were *always* part of kata, especially when the weight of historical evidence does not seem to support them.

*You* have, in your ever-shifting arguments, made claims that were (generally agreed) not well supported. And then derided others that disgreed, questioning both their skill and intellect. That has caused some things you have said here to be "not taken so well".

So please don't act the victim, when you have been throwing stones.

Again, most here agree that kata *can* have many applications, including grappling, ground stuff, etc. Not the argument.
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#389579 - 07/26/08 05:35 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
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And obviously EVERYONE who writes condescendingly and arrogantly is equally ridiculed. Don't be so quick to believe your own hype. In fact, I could (and have) written several posts on the grappling applications in kata without mentioning their historical relavance, in fact, I will.
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#389580 - 07/26/08 05:37 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
medulanet Offline
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So, where does the ground fighting come in? Well, a few ways really. First off if you are getting beat down in the striking department and cannot escape. Second if you have entered into close range fighting and damaged you opponent with strikes then it is time to put him down (if he has not already fallen). In these senarios you put him down with a throw or takedown in order to obtain a knee ride and hit him so he won't get back up. If he tries to entangle your arms utilize an arm bar or shoulder lock (not the kind where you are lying on the ground with him, but where you are either standing above or kneeling on your opponent). Use these to break a joint or open up things like kicks, stomps, or strikes to the downed opponent. Now, there may be a time where you may need to hold the opponent in place, either when on top or while on bottom. This is accomplished with the stacked hands position. Remember, this position is one of the dead givaways in kata that mucho grappling is occuring. It is simply an underhook with the other hand behind the neck of your opponent. This is used in ALL positions. For many different grappling applications. Now, if you get taken down by an opponent you use underhooks in all positions to work to your feet except if the opponent has not passed your legs. In karate hooking under the arm and controlling the head is used for control in a variety of situations. In the case where the opponent has not passed your legs you hand fight until you get control of the hands/wrists until you can scoot your hips out to get up. That is where all of the wrist locks, releases, and such come into play. I have always heard people ask when an attacker will actually grab your wrists. Its not standing when the are trying to punch you or grab you. It is usually on the ground. Shifting and switching of the hips, crossing of the legs, etc. is all good training to develop strength and dexterity so you can manuveur in all situations. Shorin Ryu karate is about motion. The motion does not stop if you hit the ground. You have to be able to move in all situations.

I assume since I have not said anything about karate's historical link to grappling I will get different types of responses from the usual suspects around here. If not, then I guess I should change my name to Keyser Söze.
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#389581 - 07/26/08 08:50 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
Christy Offline
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Hi Marcel,

You remind me of John Turturo's character in The Big Lebowski.
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#389582 - 07/26/08 08:53 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
debushi Offline
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Karate is an art of moderation, except in finishing the confrontation. It covers all ranges with an emphasis on remaining standing . There are throws, locks, trips, sweeps, kazushi, restraints, pins and submission moves. Whether you learned your karate this way or not makes all the difference in interpretation. If you do modern sport karate, then you'll learn zilch in the way of Okinawan "groundfighting".

Arguing about the depth of "groundfighting" in karate is like arguing about the depth of strikes and other standing techniques in Kodokan Judo or GJJ/BJJ. It's just not in context. The focus of the former is staying on your feet for the street. The main focus of the others is to show supremacy in a more controlled combative scenario. At least it would seem that way.

Karate is for self-preservation, and to be used only when needed. Judo and BJJ go looking for fights, so to speak, yet the fights are often in a ring or cage, or on a mat, with referees and few unknown quantities.

FYI, so you'll stop this senseless and often uninformed argument, Goshin Jutsu of the Kodokan contains more standing techs as does the Self Defense of Gracie Jiu-Jutsu. Trying to tire your opponent out from the guard is not the aim of Gracie SD. The two person drills practiced in that aspect of "BJJ" contain a more decisive, street-minded intent. It's a lot faster in execution.

If you don't do Kodokan Judo up to the higher levels or do a style of BJJ outside GJJ you will never understand the difference between the sportive and SD aspects of GJJ. So if you don't know these facts or haven't trained in the more well-rounded Gracie system your BJJ might have half the intent.

Get it straight people before you spout what you don't know about. I agree (more) with Medulanet, btw...

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#389583 - 07/27/08 06:35 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
Shonuff Offline
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CXT,

Well put. I don't quite believe it because I don't really believe that applications were hugely layered into kata. I think that a few generations after each kata was created the culture of Okinawan teachers was to teach very few applications and let students come up with what they would, but I think when they were designed the kata techniques had mostly singular purposes.

That said it is a pretty logical counter argument and one which could be true.

Med, a warrior like you shouldn't whine about the slings and arrows of detractors and foes.

However now you've taken the time to clearly explain yourself in a single post, I think I understand where you are coming from.

The kind of ground fighting you feel is in Karate kata I think is what the rest of us would call ground pins or restraints and are the follow on from the takedowns.
I that in regards to ground fighting once you have been taken down and are on your back, you are communicating the need to adapt the stand-up grappling of Karate to the situation.
Thus if I am correct your argument is that fighters have always adapted what they have to the environment of a fight so Karateka have always adapted kata grappling techniques for ground work and so by reworking the standing grappling you have in ground fighting drills you are mearly continuing an older tradition.

Personally I have no problem with that. I don't necessarily think that Karateka would have ever needed to adapt to ground battles as I think in older times fighters who hit the floor would just try to get up first because fighting on the ground is just too tacticaly unsound and I don't think ground grapling arts or strategies were common place. I also feel that the ground was never a range that was trained for by karateka as non of that kind of training seems to have been passed on to us (you yourself train in other arts for your drills etc), and I think that any such adaptation was done on the fly and never focussed on. Just my opinion though.

If my interpretation of your viewpoint is correct then I'd just like to point out that with the exception of the ground pind which we can all agree on (I think) this is different from your original contention that ground fighting was always in Karate kata. What I believe you to say above is that Karateka have always adapted their kata techniques to work on the ground if they had to. What I think your original contention was that folks argued with, was that kata has always contained techniques for specific application on the ground and the art of karate has always contained training for ground fighting. Now whether you meant to or not the image people have when someone says ground fighting is BJJ, not pins and restraints.

I cannot agree that the kata we practice were designed with any kind of prolonged tactical ground work in them, or that the art of karate has always contained drills for using kata on the ground in a BJJ-like manner.
I can agree that they contain stand-up grappling including pins and restraints and that these can be adapted for use on the ground.

Good post though.
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#389584 - 07/27/08 03:50 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Shonuff]
medulanet Offline
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Quote:

However now you've taken the time to clearly explain yourself in a single post, I think I understand where you are coming from.




Sho, I have done this many, many times before. In fact, my above post is a re-post. I simply cut and pasted from a previous post. Here it is:

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...=3&fpart=10

I guess no one was paying attention.
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#389585 - 07/27/08 04:37 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Shonuff]
cxt Offline
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Sho

And you may well be 100% correct on that...don't know myself...just talking.

My very first MA teacher was kinda "standoffish" about teaching specific applications for his kata techniques---he was worried that if he showed a "offcial" application that people being people we would think that was "THE" application and rather than develop a more flexible set of responses we would "lock in" that it was the "correct" and "only" application.

I think maybe on of the reason that few direct applications were taught is that old timers WANTED people to develop their own applications to the techniques.

Even the Goju I practice where there are specific bunkai etc--what they are really after is effective response to the chaos of a fight...not a slavish replication of an "offical" application.

My own opinion is that such applications were "hugely layered"--but they were INDIVIDUAL rather than stylistic....when I learn a new technique these days I usullay "hang it" on or around something similer I already know and practice.........which is more or less what you just said.

I'm still of the opinion..perhaps wrongly, that many of the old timers of Okinawan katate already had hands on expereince with grappling of some form or the other and simply didn't feel the need to be redundent in their karate training.

My grandfather would sometimes tell me things that he assumed that I already knew part of--such as how to take a viable cutting from a tree/plant---EVERYONE of his generation and region knew this--never occured to him that I wouldn't know how--I mentioned once about a particularly tasty starwberry--he asked me to get him a cutting--assumeing that I knew exactly how to take one, keep it alive, transport it etc.

Sorry to go so far around the barn for an example--but I sometimes wonder if some of the seeming "disconnects" we have with karate etc are due to cultural and period assumptions.

Not so much that were actually "missing" things as much as we differ in our perceptions of what were doing and why.
That the old timers taught us to do "Y" because they assumed that we already kinda knew the preceeding "X" and following "Z" as it were.

Seriously, how long and how often was karate viewed as "weaponless" art when historically it was anything but??
Almost all the old masters were trained with weapons--but many of their students simply had no interest in learning them and for most it simply was not needed anymore.

Wasn't hidden or anything--just many people simply were not interested....so for quite some time the weapon training took a "back seat" so to speak.
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#389586 - 07/27/08 04:41 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
cxt Offline
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Med

I don't think so.

Most anything can be talked about here.

I also think we differ in some comparitivly significant ways in how we view/approach this topic.
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#389587 - 07/27/08 05:40 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: cxt]
medulanet Offline
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CXT, you don't think so what? I am not comparing our arguements, just the backlash certain arguements get around here. No complaints just facts. While it is also a fact 4 months later the same arguement gets a different reaction. I call'em how I see 'em.
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#389588 - 07/27/08 06:32 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

CXT, I am not comparing our arguements, just the backlash certain arguements get around here.




Backlash to which arguments?
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#389589 - 07/27/08 09:55 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
cxt Offline
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Med

I don't think that the "mere suggestion" of things (other than style vs style arguments" ) is at all a problem around here.

I don't think that we are coming from the same place on the whole karate and grappling thing.....so we are not employing the "same" arguments...not really...so I don't see why you would say "the same argument gets a different reaction."

And on that score, I'm not asserting an overreaching belief, nor trying to convience others of its "According to Hoyle" validity..or not...or trying to establish a historical fact in the absence of such facts..I'm just talking here...and what I'm talking about is merely a personal opinion...an opinion I could very well be mistaken about.

BTW Such an upfront admission might be at least one reason that the "backlash" you seem to feel that you received has not taken place here.
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#389590 - 07/28/08 12:04 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

CXT, I am not comparing our arguements, just the backlash certain arguements get around here.




Backlash to which arguments?




That okinawan kata contains grappling techs standing and on the floor.

That grappling training is a prerequisite for developing a strong base for application of okinawan karate.

That all grappling done standing in okinawan karate can also be done on the floor.
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#389591 - 07/28/08 01:07 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: cxt]
medulanet Offline
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CXT, the thing is I said nothing about us employing the "same" arguements. I simply said certain arguements are not taken well around here. And you were making an arguement with a similar subject matter to that which some people where have received considerable resistance when posting. Historical connections aside, there are certain individuals here who took considerable issue to my assertion that there is takedown defense and underhooks in kata. And this is in the absence of any historical connections on my part. Understand that its not about trying to convince anyone of anything. I simply state my opinions. I mean, its weird because people get really angry when people simply give their view on karate related stuff, but I guess that's what averaging 10 posts a day on this forum will do to people.
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#389592 - 07/28/08 02:00 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
cxt Offline
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Med

And other than "which style is best" or "MMA vs X" I disgree that "certain arguments" are not taken well around here."

I have no interest in your perceptions of being involved in a "somebody done somebody wrong song" (Charle Pride????Charlie Rich??? Gorden Lightfoot???) on this issue...its not that I don't care..its simply that lacking a time machine there is nothing I can do about it....what happned "4 months ago" happned--but this is not "4 months ago" its today---or "yesterday" as the clock tells me. I can only address what is going on NOW.

More to the point--if you and I are in agreement that you and I are using somewhat DIFFERENT lines of reasoning--which you have said multiple time BTW, than it would be resonable to conclude that they might engender a DIFFERENT response.

In short, if were doing kinda different things is probably NOT the "subject matter" that explains a preceived or actual, different response.



Edited by cxt (07/28/08 02:13 AM)

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#389593 - 07/28/08 02:16 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: cxt]
medulanet Offline
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Exactly CXT, that's that bull'ish. When people respond ignorantly just because they didn't like the tone of one's post and ignore the information contained in the post, well, that's just crazy. But I guess people are here for different reasons. Some like to be sweet talked and others are here for real serious discussion.
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#389594 - 07/28/08 02:53 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
cxt Offline
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Med

Casting/assumeing any and all disagreement as "bull$%^" is inaccurate and insulting.

Casting/assuming everyone whom disagrees as only responding to "sweet talk" is inaccurate and insulting.

Casting/assuming people as "ignorant" because they disagree with you is inaccurate and insulting.....everybody is "ignorant" about something----but not because they disagree with you.

Casting/assuming that people "ignore" information becasue they "don't like the tone" is inaccurate and insulting/

In fact saying to me "exactly" as if I agree with you when I have spent the last several posts rather carefully laying out my DISAGREEMENT with your postion is kinda offputting to me.

I most certainly DO NOT agree with you that people are "ignorant" need to be "sweet talked" and what they have to say is "bull$%^&" just becasue they disagree with your POV and its defense.

I said nothing like your "exactly" implies--I most certainly DON'T agree with you on ANY of that last post.

Please do not speak as if I did.
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#389595 - 07/28/08 11:24 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: cxt]
medulanet Offline
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Ignorance is not disagreeing with me. It is accusing me of trying to dishonestly sell my karate to anyone by making up stuff. And I am sure the people on here who did so teach karate to kids at a community center in the inner city for next to nothing. In fact, I am sure that these same people offered to teach for free when they were not allowed to teach continuously without 2 month breaks so that the kids could really learn. I'm not the only one who does this and there are many who do much more, but there are too many people here on that bull. That is ignorance. Now who is being inaccurate and insulting to who? When I am insulted here no one says jack(well, except Shoshinkan who pointed out the injustice initially). Figures.

Please don't pretend to know what I am talking about when you don't. Just ask next time.
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#389596 - 07/28/08 11:51 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

That okinawan kata contains grappling techs standing and on the floor.




If you mean in the historical sense, then I do disagree with that. Very little evidence to show ground technique applications in kata before the advent of the UFC.

Quote:

That grappling training is a prerequisite for developing a strong base for application of okinawan karate.




I have never disagreed with that, for application of any art.

Quote:

That all grappling done standing in okinawan karate can also be done on the floor.




Again, no disagreement that kata techniques *can* be made to apply to ground-fighting. Really only disagreeing on the historical thing.
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#389597 - 07/28/08 12:15 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
Shonuff Offline
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Quote:


Please don't pretend to know what I am talking about when you don't. Just ask next time.




Or you could become a better communicator so folks don't have to ask.

Yes Med, you reposted something from an earlier thread. If you look at that thread, after you made that post, I didn't feel the need to post again. That was because you took the time to clearly explain your viewpoint, which I still contend is entirely different from your initial statements that set off all those Karate grappling arguments.

That Karateka adapt their grappling to fight on the ground is one argument. That grappling was a prerequisite of Karate is something else. That the Okinawan progenitors of Karate taught and practiced grappling for use on the ground is something different again.

At various times you have made all of these arguments, starting with the lattermost and gradually morphing to the former as your position became more and more untennable in the face of the counter arguments put to you.

I still disagree with you because I don't feel that ground grappling has ever been a particularly foccused on skill at any point in world martial history except for gladiatorial matches and as the most desperate last resort on a battlefield or SD situation. I think if fighters went to the floor then they did what they had to in order to get up before the other guy and that was the extent that the ground was acknowledged in MA training.

What I think probably held the place in Karate training that you seem to feel was held by grappling was actually weapons. Assailants would've had them so disarming and using whatever came to hand would IMO have been an important area of MA training. As CXT pointed out weapons are something we actually know were taught and passed on but died out in many schools due to lack of interest (and I suspect the sweeping cultural changes that turned many martial arts into philosophical schools of self betterment was part of that).


Edited by Shonuff (07/28/08 12:16 PM)
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#389598 - 07/28/08 12:38 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Shonuff]
medulanet Offline
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Sho, at what point did I say that the ground fighting in kata was for something other than a desperate last option SD situation?
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#389599 - 07/28/08 12:41 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

That okinawan kata contains grappling techs standing and on the floor.




If you mean in the historical sense, then I do disagree with that. Very little evidence to show ground technique applications in kata before the advent of the UFC.

Quote:

That grappling training is a prerequisite for developing a strong base for application of okinawan karate.




I have never disagreed with that, for application of any art.

Quote:

That all grappling done standing in okinawan karate can also be done on the floor.




Again, no disagreement that kata techniques *can* be made to apply to ground-fighting. Really only disagreeing on the historical thing.




Well, you tried to add the historical thing to your response even though I thought we were not talking about these issues in a historical perspective. However, I believe you are saying that the first arguement you do not agree with and the last two you do. Is that correct?
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#389600 - 07/28/08 12:51 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Shonuff]
medulanet Offline
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Quote:

That Karateka adapt their grappling to fight on the ground is one argument. That grappling was a prerequisite of Karate is something else. That the Okinawan progenitors of Karate taught and practiced grappling for use on the ground is something different again.

At various times you have made all of these arguments, starting with the lattermost and gradually morphing to the former as your position became more and more untennable in the face of the counter arguments put to you.




Wrong again Sho. Its not a morphing arguement, but a complete strain of understanding of okinawan karate. I have always made all of these arguements since I began posting on the subject. The thing is I did not begin by speaking of these skills historically. It was the others who were lost(pun intended) on my initial posts who requested historical links, which I had and gave. I would point out the grappling techs from kata. Someone would say that there are no ground grappling techs in kata. I would relate specific techniques and give their modern equivalent. Then I would explain that just like striking skill grappling skill is gained from actually grappling, not performing kata. I then referrenced karate men who were trained in grappling in preperation for karate training. I then attempted to explain who standing grappling relates to ground grappling. Especially since there were a lot of people with no grappling training commenting I wanted to explain how techniques in grappling crossover in all stages. For example in wrestling there are moves called the granby roll and a switch. They can be hit both standing and on the ground and they are fundementally the same whether standing or on the ground. This has always been my argument.
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#389601 - 07/28/08 12:54 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
Shonuff Offline
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At the point where you said: what would the Okinanwan masters have done if they fought someone and it went to the ground? Would they just give up, or would they use what they knew to win it on the ground.
That thinking ignores the idea of just getting up again.

Either way, what I typed above may or may not be relevant and is certainly something I won't argue over. The fact is that I wasn't saying you said grappling was for anything different in my post, I was expressing my view.



Edited by Shonuff (07/28/08 12:56 PM)
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#389602 - 07/28/08 01:06 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Shonuff]
medulanet Offline
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Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Actally I don't believe I ever said "win it on the ground." I have simply referred to not giving up and continuing to fight if put on the ground.
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#389603 - 07/28/08 01:20 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Quote:

Well, you tried to add the historical thing to your response even though I thought we were not talking about these issues in a historical perspective.




Well, perhaps that has been part of the problem. The scope of the initial question could be read either way (meaning to contain historical reference or not). To say that "okinawan kata contains grappling techs standing and on the floor" seems to imply that those applications were:

(A) practiced by those that created the kata

and/or

(B) transmitted to others

Which does not *seem* to be the case. Are you claiming those types of things? If not, then you have been disagreeing with me for no reason.

Quote:

However, I believe you are saying that the first arguement you do not agree with and the last two you do. Is that correct?




Within the scope of my above qualifier, yes.
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#389604 - 07/28/08 01:46 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Quote:

Well, you tried to add the historical thing to your response even though I thought we were not talking about these issues in a historical perspective.




Well, perhaps that has been part of the problem. The scope of the initial question could be read either way (meaning to contain historical reference or not). To say that "okinawan kata contains grappling techs standing and on the floor" seems to imply that those applications were:

(A) practiced by those that created the kata

and/or

(B) transmitted to others

Which does not *seem* to be the case. Are you claiming those types of things? If not, then you have been disagreeing with me for no reason.

Quote:

However, I believe you are saying that the first arguement you do not agree with and the last two you do. Is that correct?




Within the scope of my above qualifier, yes.




Matt, I thought we were agreeing to have a discussion on the techniques as seen in the kata today without the historical reference. Does it really matter what I personally believe about the historical relation. For example if you believe that jeet kun do is the forefather of MMA and I believe that brazilian vale tudo is we can still have a discussion regarding the strategies and techniques utilized in MMA, right? However, I am confused as to why discussing whether or not okinawan kata contains grappling techs standing and on the floor implies that the creators of the kata practiced those applications. By your logic it is impossible to have a discussion of what techniques the okinawan kata contains without discussion what applications the founders utilized. Unfortunately there is no such record and it is impossible to prove either way. In light of this lets have this conversation without the historical references. What do you say?
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#389605 - 07/28/08 02:03 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Med

If its, as YOU say "impossible to prove either way" you might consider laying off speaking as it were established fact and not personal opinion---and while your at it, since its "impossible to prove either way" you might relax a bit when people disagree with you....stop treating it like a personal affront for people to have other viewpoints.

You clearly have been dragging this around with a great big old chip on your shoulder for the last "4 months."

Enough so you derailed the civil discussion I was having so you could vent.

But what annoys me is that your all over the board on what your saying--one day its "x" the next then "y"---you also have the unfortunate tendency to make overblow trival diffeneces in what you say as if they were serious distinctions.....so when people comment on what you said--instead of dealing with the content of the questons, you spin it into a arguement about "I didn't say that" or something like it......the upshot being you don't really say much of anything---other than accuse people of essentially putting words in your mouth.

Tell you what---why don't clearly lay out your line of reasoning here, tell us exactly what you belive and why then we can address it DIRECTLY--not from what may or may not have been said or meant or implied or inferred from 4 months back?????


Edited by cxt (07/28/08 02:18 PM)

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#389606 - 07/28/08 02:40 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: cxt]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Actually CXT, my arguement has not changed. In fact, I laid it out in my last reply to shonuff, why don't you read it and address it directly.
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#389607 - 07/28/08 04:24 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: cxt]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
cxt,

I have found it impossible to reason with medulanet on many occasions. It's either his way or no way.
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#389608 - 07/28/08 05:57 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: BrianS]
Christy Offline
Member

Registered: 07/04/08
Posts: 61
Loc: The D
Medulanet wrote: "...but I guess that's what averaging 10 posts a day will do to some people."

For the record, Medulanet has had 15 posts so far today.

Huh...
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#389609 - 07/28/08 09:22 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Christy]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Medulanet wrote: "...but I guess that's what averaging 10 posts a day will do to some people."

For the record, Medulanet has had 15 posts so far today.

Huh...




And Christy has little knowledge of the term "average". I have a little under 2000 posts in almost 5 years not 13000 posts in a little under 4 years. This means I am averaging slightly over 1 post per day.
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#389610 - 07/28/08 11:42 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
Ginkgo_Baloba Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/28/08
Posts: 13
yeah but you averaged 16 posts -today-

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#389611 - 07/29/08 12:20 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Ginkgo_Baloba]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Very good. You are starting to get the subtle difference between today and a day. Where as today is a specific day and a day is in reference to any given day within a specific time span. That span being one's time since being registered on this forum.
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#389612 - 07/29/08 12:21 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Ginkgo_Baloba]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Ginkgo_Baloba,
It seems you have beaten Glucosmine and Crondroitin to an updated post count. Saint Johns wart must not be far behind.
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#389613 - 07/29/08 12:30 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Med

"Actually CXT my argument has not changed. In fact I laid it out in my last reply to Shonuff why don't you read it and addres sit directly."

"Actually" there Med--your last reply to shonuff is as follows:

"Actually, I don't belive that I ever said "win on the ground" I have simply reffered to not giving up and continuing to fight if put on the ground."

Well, I guess I can agree that its a good idea to not give up if taken to the ground----but what does that have to do with the topic at hand?
Forgive me but I fail to see the "case" I asked you for in that reply...perhaps you meant something else? Perhaps a different person? On a different thread?

If you either can't or won't answer my DIRECT questions---then I'm not sure what your hopeing to achive here...short of an exhibition of verbal/textual "dodge and weave" it would seem that you have no intention of actual discourse or discussion.

If you have an actual case with proper support and reasoning to make it would seem a very simple matter to simply lay it out so that I could see it....not get all shifty and snide and specifically direct me to "arguments" that are NOT were you said they would be.

Dude, just tell me what you belive and why you think it and what support you have for that POV, and where I can find it--or at least start looking.

Not really all that hard.


Edited by cxt (07/29/08 12:46 AM)

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#389614 - 07/29/08 02:27 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: cxt]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
My bad, I meant second to last. Since you did not get a chance to read it here it is.

Wrong again Sho. Its not a morphing arguement, but a complete strain of understanding of okinawan karate. I have always made all of these arguements since I began posting on the subject. The thing is I did not begin by speaking of these skills historically. It was the others who were lost(pun intended) on my initial posts who requested historical links, which I had and gave. I would point out the grappling techs from kata. Someone would say that there are no ground grappling techs in kata. I would relate specific techniques and give their modern equivalent. Then I would explain that just like striking skill grappling skill is gained from actually grappling, not performing kata. I then referrenced karate men who were trained in grappling in preperation for karate training. I then attempted to explain who standing grappling relates to ground grappling. Especially since there were a lot of people with no grappling training commenting I wanted to explain how techniques in grappling crossover in all stages. For example in wrestling there are moves called the granby roll and a switch. They can be hit both standing and on the ground and they are fundementally the same whether standing or on the ground. This has always been my argument.

Please commence your direct address.
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#389615 - 07/29/08 05:59 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Quote:

I don't necessarily think that Karateka would have ever needed to adapt to ground battles as I think in older times fighters who hit the floor would just try to get up first because fighting on the ground is just too tacticaly unsound and I don't think ground grapling arts or strategies were common place. I also feel that the ground was ever a range that was trained for by karateka as non of that kind of training seems to have been passed on to us (you yourself train in other arts for your drills etc), and I think that any such adaptation was done on the fly and never focussed on. Just my opinion though.

If my interpretation of your viewpoint is correct then I'd just like to point out that with the exception of the ground pin which we can all agree on (I think) this is different from your original contention that ground fighting was always in Karate kata. What I believe you to say above is that Karateka have always adapted their kata techniques to work on the ground if they had to. What I think your original contention was that folks argued with, was that kata has always contained techniques for specific application on the ground and the art of karate has always contained training for ground fighting. Now whether you meant to or not the image people have when someone says ground fighting is BJJ, not pins and restraints.

I cannot agree that the kata we practice were designed with any kind of prolonged tactical ground work in them, or that the art of karate has always contained drills for using kata on the ground in a BJJ-like manner.
I can agree that they contain stand-up grappling including pins and restraints and that these can be adapted for use on the ground.




Quote:

I still disagree with you because I don't feel that ground grappling has ever been a particularly foccused on skill at any point in world martial history except for gladiatorial matches and as the most desperate last resort on a battlefield or SD situation. I think if fighters went to the floor then they did what they had to in order to get up before the other guy and that was the extent that the ground was acknowledged in MA training.

What I think probably held the place in Karate training that you seem to feel was held by grappling was actually weapons. Assailants would've had them so disarming and using whatever came to hand would IMO have been an important area of MA training. As CXT pointed out weapons are something we actually know were taught and passed on but died out in many schools due to lack of interest (and I suspect the sweeping cultural changes that turned many martial arts into philosophical schools of self betterment was part of that).





Lots and lots of points for discussion but more than half your last post to me is dedicated to whining about how others put words in your mouth. Get over it.

Quote:


Wrong again Sho. Its not a morphing arguement, but a complete strain of understanding of okinawan karate. I have always made all of these arguements since I began posting on the subject.




Ok, well above I've collected where I disagree with you and some counter viewpoints that you've been ignoring for the sake of playing the victim. If you'd like to have a discussion on MA, it's all there for you.
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#389616 - 07/29/08 10:39 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Med

Your "bad" was not your simple mistake....which anyone could have made....the "bad" was being all snide and short about it.

Again, what you post above is mainly responses to other conversations and not actually laying out what you belive and why.

Here is what I mean....sorry for the length.

I belive that at least "some" form of "grappling"---is conntected with karate from very early in its history.

-The oldest "family" styles of karate seem to have a lot of jujutsu like techniques....and some unsual weapons for the local.

-Many/most Chinese arts have at least "some" grappling related training--and Okinawan karate was devloped by people that trained extensivley in China or were trained by people that did......so it could be resonably assumed that they were taught "some" sort of grappling related skills.

-We know that some form of grappling/wrestling was practiced on Okinawa---a number of people have mentioned it-some refer to it as tegumi--HOWEVER--its often mentioned in context as much more of a game, activity or even entertainment---not really as a martial art.

-We know that some styles--Goju for one--and of course others--retain/have at least "some" grappling applications which ARE woven in the kata/bunkai etc.

-We know that some famous individuals such as Nakasone (if memory serves) of Tomari-te were famous for their grappling like "tricks"--such as fast take-downs and locks.

Just a short read but you get the point......"something" or even "many" grappling related things were going on.

Down-side---all arguements have them.

-Even if accruate--and some of that is certainly debatable--there is really very little evidence that any of it was ever directled incorpaorted into karate itself--or passed down in s systimized fashion...much less calculatedly "hidden" in kata.

-Very few students of any of the old-timers so much as mention such application OR such training--quite the reverse of what one would expect.
BTW this applies even to very long and trusted students.

(Not so weird--Higashionna was reportadly quite skilled with a number of Chinese weapons--but he does not seem to have taught them to anyone in official or systematic fashion...if he taught them at all. (or only to couple of people)
Plus--weapon training as a whole was part and parcal of karate..but it TOO kinda went thu a decline--so much so that karate itself become known as a "weaponless art"
So there are a couple of precedents here---just off the top of my head)

-Very few such "grapppling related" incidents occur even among the "old timers/old masters"

-The incidents of "testing" ones skills--informally or formally far more often speak of striking rather than grappling----which if it were so widespread and intrigal to karate training you would assume such things to be roughly even.

-Oblique verbage is used that can be takeden in several way....not just what w think of as grappling.

-When you look at the term "grappling" it can have mutiple meanings----and some aspects of it--such as groundfighting-- are even more rare than the already pretty thin examples.

-The grappling preserved is often pretty basic stuff---by that it should be recognized that whatever its parent might or might not have included back in the day--most of what we have is NOT some sort of "complete grappling" art--effecitve yes--but its clearly some sort of parallel or analog of judo or jujutsu in scope or content.

-Many of the more "modern" students--"modern" in the sense that since the 1920/1930's or perhaps even earlier--have had direct opportunites to study judo in Japan and Okinawa itself.
Arguable that at least "some" of the grappling has a much more modern derivation than one would think.

(as an example--anyone whom trains for a couple of decades, will quite likely pick up all kinds of stuff from all sorts of people---my college room mate was a Shotokan student--but he learned some stuff from the "Chinese martial arts club" on campus.)

-Many Japanese martial aritst---the "modern era" students in many case most certainly DID have cross training in their backgrounds....so again, we may be seeing something quite different than we think.

Ok, so now we have some pros and cons---and just a short list of both.

So what I think--based on the above is that IMO tegumi was something people did as a sport or even a game---similer to how pretty much every kid in the USA know to and has played baseball (soccor or cricket elsewere)

Since it was pretty comon karate training didn't focus on it much because it would have been redundent.....and since it does not seem to have been viewed as a "fighting art" like karate....it was not preserved as such.

Since many people did tegumi--it was simply and correctly assumed that karate students knew and understood when and where and how such grappling could be used in fighting---they were there to learn karate.

Some styles/people with more detailed Chinese applications taught them to whomever was interested and passed them down that way.

Instead of "hidding" the applications in kata---those people that knew and wanted to---"hung" or "attached" their grappling applications around what they were learning.
Kinda the reverse of what is often claimed---sort of a "hey from this point in the kata I can work in a leg-sweep or a armbar and pin."

So instead of being a systematic and detailed grappling curriculum somehow "hidden" in the kata---IMO it was more of a highly individualized and ideosyncratic set of skills that was handed down as a sort of "you can do this TOO" with a number of karate-ka on a more or less individual and kinda piece-meal basis.

Which BTW does NOT imply a lack of effectiveness or skill.

Good lord...had no idea I was waxing so long and tedious....sorry folks.

Anyway, hope I'm kinda being clear here.

As always, could be wrong.....just talking here.


Edited by cxt (07/29/08 10:53 AM)
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I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#389617 - 07/29/08 10:57 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: cxt]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Great post, cxt. That is pretty much my understanding of it, as well.
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#389618 - 07/29/08 11:20 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: MattJ]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
But guys, thats what Med has been saying all along!
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#389619 - 07/29/08 12:07 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: cxt]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
CXT, great post, but who exactly said karate kata has a "systematic and detailed grappling curriculum?" The points that you are mentioning are not all that related to my arguement. The grappling I am referring to as it relates to kata training is very basic. But that is actually all you need as a striker. Why would you go out and pursue a BB in BJJ or Judo if you are a striker? It is really not needed. But I am not really here to discuss historical connections between grappling and karate/kata, right? Matt agreed that that was the source of any backlash I may have perceived that I was experiencing. But if you need a few quotes from Nagamine's book I will provide them.
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#389620 - 07/29/08 12:29 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
Christy Offline
Member

Registered: 07/04/08
Posts: 61
Loc: The D
Why the obsession with wrestling? Karate is karate.

Medulanet's post count for the day currently stands at 7.
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#389621 - 07/29/08 12:38 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Christy]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Hey, Christy...welcome to the forum. I find it curious that of the 3 total posts you've made to this forum to date, they are all focused on Med...and his post count.

Care to be more forthcoming about your interest in the conversation, postcounts, or your background?

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#389622 - 07/29/08 12:59 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: harlan]
Christy Offline
Member

Registered: 07/04/08
Posts: 61
Loc: The D
And thank you for the welcome.

Just another karateka, also Matsubayashi Ryu. And I'm a dude, actually. Christy is a nickname my girlfriend calls me.

The focus on wrestling in relation to karate really does elude me. Sorry if Med felt I was picking on him. No harm intended.

Christy's post count for the day stands at 2.
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#389623 - 07/29/08 01:45 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Med

"who said karate kata has a systmeic and detailed grappling cirruculm"

Me, I said it.....part of my POV is that such is probably not the case.

Its not always about you after all.

Part of presenting a proper case is laying out your POV and attendent assumptions---its not just replies to other people.

And I'm not sure that I really agree on the latter---having enough skills to get you by--so to speak should be the bare minium for training--IMO one should seek to do more than that.

My POV would suggest that grappling was not studied much because many of the students ALREADY had at least "some" to " quite a bit" of expereince in some grappling related skills---NOT that what they could pick up THU their karate training would be a "good enough" subsitute.

Pretty serious difference there.


Edited by cxt (07/29/08 01:51 PM)
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I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#389624 - 07/29/08 01:49 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Christy]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Christy

I just like talking about karate history and such.....my only "focus" is to learn something and have a good discussion.

Clearly I'm kinda wacked about what I consider to be "fun."
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#389625 - 07/30/08 09:58 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: cxt]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
My own take:

I accept that much like today, Karatemen of the past most likely had some considerable grappling skill from a variety of sources, I personally couldn't care less whether it came from Judo, Jujutsu, or the ever elusive Tegumi - super art

However I also think it's huge leap to say Karate has ever had any kind of integrated whole grappling system taught alongside it.

Furthermore, while I enjoy the bit of grappling crosstraining I do, I personally have no desire to be jack of all trades.

Also I definitely don't want the few people who learn from me to develop the jack of all trades mentality either, it's much more important to me that someone has the depth of understanding to use the more "typical" Karate application as intended than that they develop a matching grappling skillset. All that stuff is fine, but it has to be in perspective if you're still gonna call it Karate.

I guess it's all about what you believe the strategy of Karate is. It seems like today people want Karate to be some amorphous art that encompasses everything under the sun.

Focus is good.

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