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#389544 - 04/03/08 08:58 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Ed_Morris]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Can you say

Mark a noble effort but you'll be lucky to get anywhere trying to discuss application, particularly of Shotokan kata.

One approach that works is discussing a single specific technique at a time, one's which are common to a variety of arts.

Good luck.

Applications 1, 4, 5, 6, 10 and 16 that you listed I concur with, the rest I apply completely differently. From the sound of things you and I have very different philosophies surrounding application of our kata: as you may have guessed I'm quite happy with many of the simple block/strike interpretations as I believe that an analysis of why they occur as they do in that particular kata leads to a deeper and more applicable understanding of fighting principles.

One kata you left out is Gankaku (chinto) which I think is probably the most grappling heavy kata in Shotokan. The most obvious throw/lock is the reverse spinning manji-uke into a kneeling x-block, i.e. a throw into a kneeling armlock. Another is the low x-block, turn 180 into reinforced low block in back stance. I look at this one as catching a kick and throwing. The following low knife hand block can work as a leg lock to the downed foe.
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#389545 - 04/03/08 09:00 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Ed_Morris]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
*yawns*
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#389546 - 04/03/08 11:03 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Zach, welcome to the digital version of Genko Biloba.

A few B.S. quotes:

Quote:

I guess I just wasn't trained in the way of ultimate groundfighting karate,lol.(Not saying I can't do those things, I'm just saying it was integrated)

Naihanchi does not contain ground escapes, otherwise you would be on your back when doing it, wouldn't you? People have some imigination!!

When did you start training medulanet? Ask some folks around here who started in the sixties and seventies if karate has a double leg takedown.
Wrestling is not a part of karate either. It is what is, nothing more.
Jointlocks, throws, strikes, kicks, pressure points,but NO DOUBLE LEG TAKEDOWNS OR GROUNDFIGHTING.

EVERY ART LACKS SOMETHING!!!!!!!!!!




and

Quote:

Which kata contains takedowns and wrestling?







Med.......so deceptive. Why are you trying to make Brian out like he doesn't believe in ANY grappling in kata/karate.

Very disappointing, man.

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...page=0&vc=1
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#389547 - 04/03/08 11:30 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Ed_Morris]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Quote:

Quote:

for me comes from our Tegumi stand up wrestling drills and practice, which is not from kata. (to be clear the concept of Tegumi was discussed with me by a couple of Seiors, I then developed what we use)




the standing grappling drills which you invented and choose to call 'tegumi' are not inspired from kata?

where do their principles come from? trial and error? previous or outside grappling experience?


then of course you have to hope the standing drills relate enough to groundfighting in order to justify considering it in the groundfighting category. standing grappling drills could also be imagined to apply in waterfighting, but without training in the water, can you call it waterfighting? and then relate waterfighting to kata? then, take the next leap and say kata has always been used in waterfighting. see how thats sortof silly?


I'm not disparaging art practices, I'm only pointing out our flaws of thinking for clarity of communication.


ps. could you and medulanet give definitions of groundfighting in the thread link given above. I think that would clear up where people are coming from. again, for clearer communication.





Hey Ed,

the tegumi basic priciples of push, pull, drop, lift and twist come from the basic mechanics of movement, and particulary combining those forces,

along with things like centreline theory, footwork concepts etc etc, leaning for leverage, using your centre to take thier balance, it is a very basic practice that is 'done' by - actual stand up wrestling drills and free work.

The actual practice of tegumi does develop a little ability, all round and certainly in relation to positional dominance, hence it has a cross use of giving some ability in ground fighting, well thats my experieince of the students anyhow. But it should be noted this is not significant ability, as indeed the core strategic position of karate is stand up, opponent down!

You gave a great description of groundfighting before somewhere (along the lines of positional dominance to effect a sub being the goal, both people on the floor etc etc.

I agree with that. In fact I agree with you on this one, so get off my back
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#389548 - 04/03/08 12:00 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: shoshinkan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
hey, no cronie-ism and no special treatment...everyone gets questions here. lol

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#389549 - 04/03/08 12:02 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Shonuff]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
you are right. sorry to have derailed the thread - no doubt there are more suitable threads discussing the topic recently!

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#389550 - 04/03/08 12:27 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Quote:

Zach, welcome to the digital version of Genko Biloba.

A few B.S. quotes:

Quote:

I guess I just wasn't trained in the way of ultimate groundfighting karate,lol.(Not saying I can't do those things, I'm just saying it was integrated)

Naihanchi does not contain ground escapes, otherwise you would be on your back when doing it, wouldn't you? People have some imigination!!

When did you start training medulanet? Ask some folks around here who started in the sixties and seventies if karate has a double leg takedown.
Wrestling is not a part of karate either. It is what is, nothing more.
Jointlocks, throws, strikes, kicks, pressure points,but NO DOUBLE LEG TAKEDOWNS OR GROUNDFIGHTING.

EVERY ART LACKS SOMETHING!!!!!!!!!!




and

Quote:

Which kata contains takedowns and wrestling?







Med.......so deceptive. Why are you trying to make Brian out like he doesn't believe in ANY grappling in kata/karate.

Very disappointing, man.

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...page=0&vc=1




Dissappointed in what? I didn't say it, BrianS did. Don't get mad at me because of what this guy posts. Why are you standing up for him if he does not post what he means? In fact, he is the number one "there is no groundfighting and little grappling in karate/kata." Oh, wait, he even says it in these posts. He had to have someone come in to teach him and his guys how to grapple and holds it as a distinctly different way of fighting from his karate. To him it is purely crosstraining and he has integrated it into what he does. And now you are actually showing proof of someone who is changing their tune, but then attack me because of these B.S. inconsistencies.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#389551 - 04/03/08 12:59 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:


Dissappointed in what? I didn't say it, BrianS did. Don't get mad at me because of what this guy posts. Why are you standing up for him if he does not post what he means? In fact, he is the number one "there is no groundfighting and little grappling in karate/kata." Oh, wait, he even says it in these posts. He had to have someone come in to teach him and his guys how to grapple and holds it as a distinctly different way of fighting from his karate. To him it is purely crosstraining and he has integrated it into what he does. And now you are actually showing proof of someone who is changing their tune, but then attack me because of these B.S. inconsistencies.




I take it you didn't click the link I posted where Brian clearly states:

Quote:

Where in kata is groundfighting? Isn't kata done on the feet?

Chokes, yes!
Grappling, yes!
Joint locks, yes!
Throws, yes!
All of these elements are contained in kata and then some.




I don't like it when people twist facts to suit their purpose, as you are doing. And the little personal digs at him are pathetic. This is the honor and ethics you get from your training? Very disappointing.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#389552 - 04/03/08 01:58 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Quote:


Dissappointed in what? I didn't say it, BrianS did. Don't get mad at me because of what this guy posts. Why are you standing up for him if he does not post what he means? In fact, he is the number one "there is no groundfighting and little grappling in karate/kata." Oh, wait, he even says it in these posts. He had to have someone come in to teach him and his guys how to grapple and holds it as a distinctly different way of fighting from his karate. To him it is purely crosstraining and he has integrated it into what he does. And now you are actually showing proof of someone who is changing their tune, but then attack me because of these B.S. inconsistencies.




I take it you didn't click the link I posted where Brian clearly states:

Quote:

Where in kata is groundfighting? Isn't kata done on the feet?

Chokes, yes!
Grappling, yes!
Joint locks, yes!
Throws, yes!
All of these elements are contained in kata and then some.




I don't like it when people twist facts to suit their purpose, as you are doing. And the little personal digs at him are pathetic. This is the honor and ethics you get from your training? Very disappointing.




I did read it, hence the inconsistency remark. First karate doesn't have grappling and then it does. If his understanding is developing, fine, but he has made no such statements indicating this.

You decry my "digs" but say nothing of his. What gives? Oh, but your blind to that, aren't you. Because he is supporting your opinion and I am not. Or maybe because he is your e-buddy. At least I do it with style and address it on the forum where the remarks are first made for all to see. Now how many people on here really do have "honor"? And I'm the sensitive one? Interesting. Nothing new here. Heck, Brian theatened to beat me up. Now ain't that some B.S. (see, style). And no one said Jack. And you are mad about "digs". Where's your ethics now?
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#389553 - 04/03/08 02:16 PM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Med -



Very tiresome. You know very well that Brian and the rest of "us" were referring to grappling in the groundfighting, submission sense. You are the one that has framed it as stand-up to ground now.

FWIW, I don't think that anyone threatening anyone online is cool. Although I don't remember reading that.

And you are welcome to be my "E-buddy", too.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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