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#389534 - 04/03/08 01:38 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Sigh....here we go...I don't remember that, in fact what I remember is everyone agreeing there are locks, throws, takedowns etc. but there being disagreement on the existence of dedicated submission style grappling in kata.

I concede that possibly you're correct and someone said there were no takedowns (though I find it unlikely), but if so it certainly wasn't me.




Zach, welcome to the digital version of Genko Biloba.

A few B.S. quotes:

Quote:

I guess I just wasn't trained in the way of ultimate groundfighting karate,lol.(Not saying I can't do those things, I'm just saying it was integrated)

Naihanchi does not contain ground escapes, otherwise you would be on your back when doing it, wouldn't you? People have some imigination!!

When did you start training medulanet? Ask some folks around here who started in the sixties and seventies if karate has a double leg takedown.
Wrestling is not a part of karate either. It is what is, nothing more.
Jointlocks, throws, strikes, kicks, pressure points,but NO DOUBLE LEG TAKEDOWNS OR GROUNDFIGHTING.

EVERY ART LACKS SOMETHING!!!!!!!!!!




and

Quote:

Which kata contains takedowns and wrestling?


_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#389535 - 04/03/08 01:45 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

I think you need a definition of what the term 'groundfighting' is and isn't by popular use of the word.
Throwing someone on the ground and submitting them while on one knee is not groundfighting. takedowns and finishes are not groundfighting.

groundfighing is when your opponent AND yourself have more than feet/knee or hands touching the floor, and both opponents are FULL-BODY grappling for dominance to either get away to stand up and run or submit the opponent from the ground to the ground.




Wrong again Ed. Are you just making this stuff up and trying to make it sound good? In what world is a knee ride not groundfighting?
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#389536 - 04/03/08 02:31 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772

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#389537 - 04/03/08 03:04 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Well, being as I didn't say those things, why are you repeating them to me?

Anyway I know a variation on the double leg can be found some Shorin kata so I won't dispute that, but I feel you are still picking out silly little things and ignoring the more pressing part of the argument, which is the groundfighting proper bit.

You keep changing what you define groundfighting as, when we started all this you were insisting that tegumi was functionally something akin to modern submission wrestling, and that it was intimately linked with Karate, or that was certainly my impression of your arguments.

Learning techniques that go to the ground is not the same as learning dedicated groundfighting, I assume I don't need to explain that to you though, being a wrassler and all. I know principles may carry and all that, but principles of everything effect everything else when you get general enough.

I am ok with what you do, in fact I respect it greatly, I am just not comfortable with your historical claims more than anything else.



Edited by Zach_Zinn (04/03/08 03:13 AM)

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#389538 - 04/03/08 03:15 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Well, being as I didn't say those things, why are you repeating them to me?

Anyway I know a variation on the double leg can be found some Shorin kata so I won't dispute that, but I feel you are still picking out silly little things and ignoring the more pressing part of the argument, which is the groundfighting proper bit.

You keep changing what you define groundfighting as, when we started all this you were insisting that tegumi was something akin to modern submission wrestling, and that it was intimately linked with Karate, or that was certainly my impression of your arguments.

Learning techniques that go to the ground is not the same as learning dedicated groundfighting, I assume I don't need to explain that to you though, being a wrassler and all.

I am ok with what you do, in fact I respect it greatly, I just think you should admit that your wrestling is crosstraining, not some sort of subset of your Karate.




Zach, my stance on the karate grappling issue has not changed. I have always stated that wrestling is a supplementary exercise within the karate training regimine, just like lifting weights is. Therefore, you don't wrestle so you can simply wrestle when learning to fight with your karate. Just like I don't lift weights so that I can bench press my opponent. I learn wrestling so I can obtain a good position to fight from. So that I can put my opponent on the ground and control him there while I apply my techniques (striking or joint locking). So that my opponent cannot throw me around like a rag doll and dominate me as well. Its not that my arguement is changing, its just that your understanding of what I am saying is.

Now, I posted the B.S. quotes because you seemed to believe that none of the good souls on this board would believe that takedowns were a part of karate and kata. I simply was informing you that you were mistaken. And in fact one of the main individuals attacking my assertions that karate does contain grappling/ground fighting was the main culprit.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#389539 - 04/03/08 03:49 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
from Med -

'my stance on the karate grappling issue has not changed. I have always stated that wrestling is a supplementary exercise within the karate training regimine, just like lifting weights is. Therefore, you don't wrestle so you can simply wrestle when learning to fight with your karate. Just like I don't lift weights so that I can bench press my opponent. I learn wrestling so I can obtain a good position to fight from. So that I can put my opponent on the ground and control him there while I apply my techniques (striking or joint locking). So that my opponent cannot throw me around like a rag doll and dominate me as well. Its not that my arguement is changing, its just that your understanding of what I am saying is.'

Hey Marcel,

Now that is much clearer than what I understood personally from many of your other posts on this subject, I do think the forum written word has caused some confusion on this subject, to a degree all round.

The positional aspect (still not ground led fighting mind) for me comes from our Tegumi stand up wrestling drills and practice, which is not from kata. (to be clear the concept of Tegumi was discussed with me by a couple of Seiors, I then developed what we use)

For sure and for certain, to a point of course kata and stand up wrestling principles can be worked on the ground,

if we find outrselves there, just not as effective as a trained ground grappler who works that range, and indeed specific techniques for purpose. (but IMO certainly suitiable for self defence requirements, in the main).
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#389540 - 04/03/08 04:07 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: shoshinkan]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

The positional aspect (still not ground led fighting mind) for me comes from our Tegumi stand up wrestling drills and practice, which is not from kata. (to be clear the concept of Tegumi was discussed with me by a couple of Seiors, I then developed what we use)




And I assume that you don't practice your "tegumi" as a means enabling you to stand up wrestle your opponent in a fight, but to better apply your karate technique. Just like improved speed, strength, conditioining, etc. This is the same way ti and quan fa were integrated and transformed into tode. This is also the reason that many okinawans were trained in grappling as youths in preparation for their karate training similar to the way Kyan's father prepared him for classical karate training.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#389541 - 04/03/08 07:33 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: Zach_Zinn]
chofukainoa Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 146
Loc: tokyo, japan
Quote:

Sigh....here we go...I don't remember that, in fact what I remember is everyone agreeing there are locks, throws, takedowns etc. but there being disagreement on the existence of dedicated submission style grappling in kata.

I concede that possibly you're correct and someone said there were no takedowns (though I find it unlikely), but if so it certainly wasn't me.




I think I did say in one thread that there were no clear takedowns or grappling techniques in the KATA of the style (Motobu udundi) I practice. But I was wrong, as I was just shown the other day a takedown application of a move I thought was just an open-hand strike.

Actually, my sensei was basically saying that most strikes can be transformed into takedowns, especially as a practitioner gets older and can't necessarily down an opponent in one blow. Generally our kata might show how to get in a position to potentially grapple, but not show the actual grapple/takedown move--but our kata are weird anyway.

I think that the clip that medulanet posted at the start of the "udundi kata anyone?" thread was Uehara sensei's demonstration of a kata more clearly incorporating grappling techniques.

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#389542 - 04/03/08 07:36 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
yes Med, pretty much what you say is why our tegumi is important to training,

It also serves another purpose that of less violent means of coping with lower level situations,

and of course the reality that our karate strikes/locks may not stand up as we wish sometimes - which means the grappling/clinch range should be worked significantly in realtion to self defence.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#389543 - 04/03/08 07:41 AM Re: No Grappling In Kata - Enter into Grappling [Re: shoshinkan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

for me comes from our Tegumi stand up wrestling drills and practice, which is not from kata. (to be clear the concept of Tegumi was discussed with me by a couple of Seiors, I then developed what we use)




the standing grappling drills which you invented and choose to call 'tegumi' are not inspired from kata?

where do their principles come from? trial and error? previous or outside grappling experience?


then of course you have to hope the standing drills relate enough to groundfighting in order to justify considering it in the groundfighting category. standing grappling drills could also be imagined to apply in waterfighting, but without training in the water, can you call it waterfighting? and then relate waterfighting to kata? then, take the next leap and say kata has always been used in waterfighting. see how thats sortof silly?


I'm not disparaging art practices, I'm only pointing out our flaws of thinking for clarity of communication.


ps. could you and medulanet give definitions of groundfighting in the thread link given above. I think that would clear up where people are coming from. again, for clearer communication.

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