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#388996 - 03/31/08 08:15 AM Taekwondo - a fragmented art?
GriffyGriff Offline
Good Egg,
Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 414
Loc: Earth
Have a good look at Taekwondo and how you practice it.
Is it a collection of disjointed practices?
Are your lessons structured similar to the points below?
1. Fitness / Cardiovascular
2. Tuls (Kata) movements
3. Line-Work
4. Sparring
5. Self Defense

Has anyone else questioned that Taekwondo and many other Martial Arts follow the same disjointed pattern? Is this the "Classical Mess" that Bruce Lee referred to?
_________________________
I am NOT homophobic... I am NOT afraid of my own house!

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#388997 - 03/31/08 09:52 AM Re: Taekwondo - a fragmented art? [Re: GriffyGriff]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
I am confused by your posting. How or why do you not feel this does not all come together?

It is not like one can do all this at the same time! Please explain you thinking.

Most of what you are referring to comes together for most people at the higher levels in their training, the light clicks on and the student go's ahhhh, ohhh I see.

I can not see for the life of me how these things do not connect, one needs to learn all of them to be rounded.

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#388998 - 03/31/08 11:19 AM Re: Taekwondo - a fragmented art? [Re: GriffyGriff]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
I'd never thought of it that way before Griff.

But IMO it's no different to how other martial arts organise themselves- for example in my judo class we started off with a warm-up, then would divide the class into some technique practice, perhaps dividing this into standing and ground work, then we would do randori(sparring) again often dividing between standing and ground-work. We did practice standing and ground-work together occasionally, but still you can see the division between practicing techniques in isolation, and then putting it into a free or semi-free situation. Some judo classes further divide the classes into Kata practice, but my club never did this.

I think the division of training comes mainly from the recognition that some of the things within the art cannot be practiced in sparring, so they must be dealt with separately. I feel that this is wrong-headed, and would prefer not to practice it at all if I can't spar with it, but then I'm not really in MA for the self defense aspect so I can appreciate that others' opinions may differ.

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#388999 - 03/31/08 12:13 PM Re: Taekwondo - a fragmented art? [Re: GriffyGriff]
Sorin Offline
Member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 131
Loc: Oxford, MS
Most arts separate things because thing are simply easier to learn when you take them one at a time. What would you consider to be the remedy of this "classical mess"? How would you conglomerate all of these together?

Sorin


Edited by Sorin (03/31/08 12:18 PM)

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#389000 - 03/31/08 01:24 PM Re: Taekwondo - a fragmented art? [Re: GriffyGriff]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Quote:

Is this the "Classical Mess" that Bruce Lee referred to?




No,

I believe he was refering to the "My art is better than your art" debates that have been and still are so prevalent in the MA's community. He was a big believer in seeing the good of all arts and in cross training.Just look at what he did. His kick's were very Korean, learning much of how to develope kicking power from Jhoon Rhee. His hands showed his expertise in Wing Chung, footwork from western boxing, grappling though I am not sure what style he may have studied as I don't think that BJJ was so well known though there were many others. I don't think he was a big believer in forms but he did believe in live partner work (with how much resistance I don't know). As mentioned by the others above, I don't know how else you could go about teaching an art, but I do not believe that was what Bruce Lee was refering.

VDJ

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#389001 - 03/31/08 01:42 PM Re: Taekwondo - a fragmented art? [Re: GriffyGriff]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
To call these arts "disjointed" shows a real lack of understanding of them and how the different components join together.

How can you claim that "cardio vascular fitness" is in no way connected to "sparring"? This is just ridiculous.

The only alternative here to just being ignorant is being disingenuous and just trying to tear something apart in order to promote your own art.

You can say a lot about Bruce Lee. But out of shape is not one of them. He placed a very high value on physical fitness and it was part of JKD training.

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#389002 - 03/31/08 02:24 PM Re: Taekwondo - a fragmented art? [Re: GriffyGriff]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Quote:

JKD students reject traditional systems of training, fighting styles and the Confucian pedagogy used in traditional kung fu schools because of this lack of flexibility. JKD is claimed to be a dynamic concept that is forever changing, thus being extremely flexible. "Absorb what is useful; Disregard that which is useless, and Add what is Essentially your own" is an often quoted Bruce Lee maxim.


_________________________
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#389003 - 03/31/08 02:39 PM Re: Taekwondo - a fragmented art? [Re: GriffyGriff]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Have a good look at Taekwondo and how you practice it. Is it a collection of disjointed practices?
Are your lessons structured similar to the points below?
1. Fitness / Cardiovascular
2. Tuls (Kata) movements
3. Line-Work
4. Sparring
5. Self Defense
Has anyone else questioned that Taekwondo and many other Martial Arts follow the same disjointed pattern? Is this the "Classical Mess" that Bruce Lee referred to?




I am not sure of what is meant by the classical mess. Maybe you can elaborate more, this way people won't react without being informed or understanding of your point.

I would offer this out, as I was thinking of starting a new thread. So here goes:
The 1st Korean martial artists that went overseas & began teaching MAs, were basically teaching a watered down version of Japanese Karate. They trained for awhile in Korea, as teens or young adults, then went overseas, where there was little if any exposure to the MAs. They were viewed as masters. But where they REALLY?

For instance, the one considered by many or referred to by many as the father of American TKD, moved to the States when he was just 24 years old. He basically was a novice BB from the Chung Do kwan. He instructor was Nam Tae Hi, who later would become General Choi's right hand man & co-founder of the Oh Do kwan. Now Col Nam joined the Chung Do kwan in the mid 40s, very early on in the Kwans formation. For Mr. Rhee to consider Col Nam as his teacher, Mr. Rhee would have most likely joined in the 50s. So how much training could he have had? Once living in the States how much exposure to training could he have had? I know he eventually learned the ITF or Chang Hon Tuls (ChonJi Patterns), but how much additional training could he have had under a senior instructor?
Now this is not limited to him. Some of the other early Koreans that moved to the States had similiar exposure levels. One states he started with the JiDo kwan in 1953, although he reports begining his MAs training in 1949. What that means & to what extent, we are left to wonder. Now he was the capt of the college KSD team in 56/57 & moves to the US in 1958. So how much could he have learned & how mush additional exposure could he have had.

Another graduated college in 1957 & reports being capt of the college club & that he started MAs at age 11. By 1962, he is living in the States, as a young man. How much exposure did he really have to indepth MAs that would qualify he as a master in a new country? Again, how much additional instruction could he have had in his new country, one with little connection to Asian fighting arts?

As another & final example, a rather influential figure in the early kwan system, took over after some training after his teacher, an original kwan founder stopped teaching. As one of the senior students & older ones, he took over the responsibilty of teaching. Where was his learning? When he moved to the States in the early 60s, how much exposure to seniors did he have?

So where am I going with this? Most of the early crew had little exposure to a watered down Art. They go abroad & stick to a class structure of basics. I think it is clear. is this what GriffyGrif is getting at? If not, then lets move this to a new thread, titled maybe have subsequent generations been taught more & more indepth & had additional exposures that were not available or accessed in the early days of KMSa?

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#389004 - 03/31/08 02:57 PM Re: Taekwondo - a fragmented art? [Re: JAMJTX]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:


To call these arts "disjointed" shows a real lack of understanding of them and how the different components join together.

How can you claim that "cardio vascular fitness" is in no way connected to "sparring"? This is just ridiculous.




Nono, I think you guys have missed the point of the question.

Griff isn't arguing that the components are unconnected in martial arts, he is arguing that they are trained separately. If taekwon-do is one indivisible thing, then why do most schools split it up into distinct components? Perhaps this makes it clearer?

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#389005 - 03/31/08 03:03 PM Re: Taekwondo - a fragmented art? [Re: ITFunity]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
unity



I didn't know what griffy was exactly getting at so I asked him to explain, but I really don't understand what you are getting at or how it relates to griffy's posting.

I think griffy was not fond that much training is separate from other parts of training, not sure.

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