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#388616 - 03/28/08 12:07 AM oldman and Student Spar
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
FA Folks,
On the recent thread "Variations on a Theme" I mentioned that I wanted to post a video of our approach to sparring. I have seen many peoples videos and the way they go about things. Our style of Chung Do Kwan is historically called a "no contact" method. That may actually be abit of a misnomer. Just the mention of the phrase "no contact" is an invitation to derision. Still I'd like to show you how we do it. Of course there are people at higher skill (or testosterone)levels that mutually agree to agree to push the envelope. That may also include sweeps. On the video you can see me sparring with a young man who is a green belt. There is generally no safety gear worn. Attacks are targeted above the waist and below the neck including the sides of the body. The attacks to the legs and back are not allowed. There are no punches or kicks thrown to the head. If we incorporate punches and kicks at head level we use headgear with a full face cage. None of us are particularly handsome but we all agree that we would like to keep the noses that we have.

Until now I have struggled to describe what we do. It does not look like WTF or ITF. It does not stop to assess points. It is definatley not Kyukoshin. So what does it look like?

For what it is worth here it is.

#388617 - 03/28/08 12:41 AM Re: oldman and Student Spar [Re: oldman]
ButterflyPalm Offline

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia

So what does it look like?

It looks like a no contact sparring between an oldman with a black belt and a young man with a green belt
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

#388618 - 03/28/08 12:48 AM Re: oldman and Student Spar [Re: ButterflyPalm]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884

#388619 - 03/28/08 12:59 AM Re: oldman and Student Spar [Re: oldman]
Triddle Offline

Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 129
Loc: Australia
Good to see yet another video, you're really getting into it aren't you?

This type of sparring I feel is quite usful in developing various skills, and is something I practice myself occasionally, even as an advocate of contact sparring. That said I do find contact sparring to be more usful in general, but non-contact continuous sparring still has it's place as far as I'm concerned. And if you chose not to sparr with medium or heavy contact I'd wager this would be the next best thing. Sorry, but the only name I have for it is 'non-contact sparring' so I can't help you there. Not sure if you're looking for internet analysis but I can't help myself.

My criticisms of this particular method are -

You don't learn to 'scrap', that being when stuff is somewhat less technical looking (emphasis on 'looking') *see bottom for my definition of scrapping*. Some people say that this is simply 'bad technique', I say it's simply an element of fighting.

Since this is clearly standup, you don't learn to avoid being taken down. Note I'm not talking about ground fighting, but rather talking about keeping on your feet.

You don't learn to deal with pressure in the same way contact sparring teaches you to. Or (obviously) to take a hit.

Those are just the downsides that come to mind, I'm sure you're already aware of them, but I figure they're worth repeating anyway. Keep in mind I'm not saying that this training is bad, everything has upsides and downsides, I'm merely indicating some of the downsides I see in this method.

*Scrapping to me is a skill that's hard to learn outside heavy contact sparring or going out and getting into 'real fights'. By scrapping what I mean is the things that go on that are largely uncontrolled, the things that can't be drilled (and sometimes just working your way around the fact that you haven't drilled certain things). I guess I see it basically as your ability to come up with a solution to unforseen problems on the spot without having to think. It's difficult to explain really, but say for example, you're fighting someone and, for arguments sake, you're worthless in the clinch, yet the fight is occuring in the clinch, the way I see it your a good scrapper if you can improvise in such a way to either gain the advantage in a position your otherwise untrained in, or find a way to get to a position that you don't suck at.

#388620 - 03/28/08 01:37 AM Re: oldman and Student Spar [Re: Triddle]
JoshuaMonjin Offline

Registered: 10/13/06
Posts: 427
Loc: Fallon, Nevada
I liked it, some nice control and could see some technique. What was with lifting your leg so much? Was it to fake a kick or chambering and the opportunity passed?
Jikishin kore dojo nari

#388621 - 03/28/08 02:06 AM Re: oldman and Student Spar [Re: oldman]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
To me it shows good introduction to continous sparring with light contact I take it this your 1st level of sparring and it picks up as you said face sheild and body pads are used when the contact gets heavy I assume.

You are pretty quick and still move around pretty good, you obvious have to check yourself from taking a shot at the available head several times you cocked your leg too high for just a leg check, good control. The green belt showed good control and good use of his techniques I think he will be a good disciple in the future.

You have good control and obvious a senior Black belt I remember reprimanding a Young Shodan for over powering a similar kyu level student beating him down because the camera was running. The 4th Kyu was afraid to work with him again. That was his excuse the camera was running. Your video shows the wisdom of a Senior Instructor less ego and more training effort. Good job.

You look alot slimmer, fitter and have more hair then the cartoon representation of what I assumed was you. I commmend your neat garage dojo nicee.

#388622 - 03/28/08 07:51 AM Re: oldman and Student Spar [Re: Neko456]
CVV Offline

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
We call this randori.

In free continous sparring we have randori and jyu kumite.

For seniors (adults) :
Randori : minimal use of protective gear (I use nothing not even a groin cup). Goal is to set-up combinations or to anticipate on attacks in a flowing manner however without to much force. So if you get hit, chance on injury should be minimal. You can do any technique even trows/takedowns etcc but once your opponent is on the ground give a finishing blow and then end. Both on the ground is not done.
You can pick up speed but the level of contact should be light, skin touch or just before contact.
Jyu kumite: full out fighting with control towards contact and energy transfert. Anything is allowed but keep in mind the ability of yourselve and your partner. Kicking and beating the hell out of a less gifted partner is not good training. Again minimal protection, I only use fist protection, sometimes.

For youth and adolescents, the same fighting methods apply, usually with competition (WKF) protective gear, onto allowed zones and with allowed techniques for WKF competition.

Jyu kumite is not done every training, randori ussually is. Sometimes , during training, randori becomes jyu kumite. Sometimes sh!t happens. 4 time schoulder dislocation. 2 knee surgeries and uncountable bloody lips and bruises.

#388623 - 03/28/08 10:18 AM Re: oldman and Student Spar [Re: oldman]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Hi Mark. Thanks for posting the video. Your sparring looks similar to the stuff that Scottie and I have done. You looked sharp, considering that you were obviously holding back on the green belt. I can understand the no head shots with no gear rule. Even a light head shot will sting pretty bad with no gear.

Only thing I would like to see is adding in leg kicks. JMO.

Keep up the good work!
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

#388624 - 03/28/08 10:29 AM Re: oldman and Student Spar [Re: MattJ]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Oldman did kick to the leg once or twice in a combination. Was he that fast you didn't see it.

#388625 - 03/28/08 10:32 AM Re: oldman and Student Spar [Re: Triddle]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884

Good to see yet another video, you're really getting into it aren't you?

Yes, I have been. It has been fun. There are a few things I hoped might come of the process.

One, not martially related challenge, I wanted to figure out the technical aspects of how to get video on line. It was exersize for the noodle and will help me in other areas.

Two, I had new students that had requested videos of the first forms we teach so they could use them for reminders. I was able to get that done for them.

Three, I teach in two different location and I wanted one group to be able to see what the other was doing. One other nice thing was as I have watched the videos with the students each was able to see something in what they were doing that needed to be worked on without me harping on it.

On a personal note the experience of putting the videos out there was good for me. I have tried over the years to be honest about what I do, how I train and who I am. Even so, I know there are people out there that imagine That I "oldman" am more skilled than I actually am. O.K. I admit my cartoon personna may take some artistic liscense but it is a "Cartoon" after all. . I do feel inartculate and hog tied by how slow I type. With the video I was able to put an accurate picture out there more clearly and efficiently.

The first time I put a video out there I titled it "Oldman naked". For those of you that havent done it it can be a little unnerving to hit the ( UPLOAD VIDEO) button and know that you may be inviting a turd tornado of responses from any person on the planet. Even more unnerving is knowing that the very skilled people you admire and respect will see it also and know instantly, exactly where you really stand in terms of skill. That is the humbling (feeling naked part) part.

I have found putting the video out there to be an interesting process. In some ways kind of freeing (like going to a beach in southern France). Once it's out there it's no big deal and no one really cares.

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