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#388320 - 03/26/08 07:03 PM China v Okinawa v Japan v Taiwan
Mark Hill Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
1. Do I really want to learn the original forms as practiced in China? How much longer is Kuan Muan Tsou than Wanduan? Is it reptitive? Are the applications lost? (did the Chinese teach the forms by parts?) Did the Okinawans improve on things given they had a blend of martial arts described here:

http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com/original_five_fighting_arts.htm

(but then again the Chinese did as well). But watching an old master perform Nepai, does he do it softly for function or because he is ready to kick the bucket?


2. I have seen a lot of stuff on pay television "cable" "TV" about martial arts. It appears that much was lost post Mao, but a lot was left unmolested on Taiwan, also from those fleeing the mainland. Would a trip to Taiwan be the most frutiful for a Karateka trying to get back to Okinawan roots? I've suspected this for a while.
_________________________
It takes a village to stone somebody to death.

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#388321 - 03/26/08 10:27 PM Re: China v Okinawa v Japan v Taiwan [Re: Mark Hill]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
According to B.K Franzis a trip to Taiwan for MA training is a life changing as well as art changing event.

My view is that if you want to learn principles from the ancient deadly chinese art White Crane, find a White crane teacher. The same goes for any MA. According to Mccarthy sensei what is now Thai boxing (unless I'm mistaken) was an influence on Karate, so why not learn that.

Whatever you pick up it will give you a different perspective with which to view your style, but the Okinawan roots are lost as best as anyone can tell. My advice if you need more from your art is to study another in depth for a while.

If you believe the hype then Matsumura Seito Shorin Ryu is as close to the original Karate as you can get.
Next from what I've heard would be McCarthy's Koryu Uchinadi. Everything else is luck of the draw.

I believe in Oz you guys have pretty good access to White Crane kungfu and Muay thai teachers though that might be too much of a generalization given the size of the place.

Best of luck.
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#388322 - 03/27/08 01:31 AM Re: China v Okinawa v Japan v Taiwan [Re: Shonuff]
Mark Hill Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
Actually I've been most impressed with the "soft fist" style I saw there on TV.

But my suspicions seem confirmed. Taiwan should be treasured by all martial artists. It's a living museum of MA knowledge.

For the same matter of adding or taking away from kata, let's take some purely Okinawan kata - Tomari te's Rinkan for example (glad to see it or its applications any time). When Nakasone practiced this, where the applications based on Quin Na, Tegumi, Tigwa, Hsing-I or an integrated understanding oif these?
_________________________
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#388323 - 03/28/08 07:38 AM Re: China v Okinawa v Japan v Taiwan [Re: Mark Hill]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
In my studies I have found there is a lot of good and bad things in studying other arts.

It seems most Chinese arts went to Malaya and Taiwan.
White crane is also still in China. My very limited learning of some of the principles of zan chin(white crane) that made sense to me from a fighting perspective was from an English guy.

I see stuff that doesnt make sense. I observe an American/ Chinese guy, who is already good, going back to Taiwan to learn and he is just as good as they are.

I presume on Okinawa there are guys that are good and not so good depending on a persons requirements.

Its like Kano tried to point out. Here is an art. It will include restistance training other wise it wont work. The
techniques that can hurt someone will be trained seperatly.

Jude

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#388324 - 03/28/08 07:42 AM Re: China v Okinawa v Japan v Taiwan *DELETED* [Re: jude33]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Post deleted by jude33

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#388325 - 03/28/08 07:43 AM Re: China v Okinawa v Japan v Taiwan [Re: jude33]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
In my studies I have found there is a lot of good and bad things in studying other arts.

It seems most Chinese arts went to Malaya and Taiwan.
White crane is also still in China. My very limited learning of some of the principles of zan chin(white crane) that made sense to me from a fighting perspective was from an English guy.

I see stuff that doesnt make sense. I observe an American/ Chinese guy, who is already good, going back to Taiwan to learn and he is just as good as they are.

I presume on Okinawa there are guys that are good and not so good depending on a persons requirements.

Its like Kano tried to point out. Here is an art. It will include restistance training other wise it wont work. The
techniques that can hurt someone will be trained seperatly.

Quote:



For the same matter of adding or taking away from kata, let's take some purely Okinawan kata - Tomari te's Rinkan for example (glad to see it or its applications any time). When Nakasone practiced this, where the applications based on Quin Na, Tegumi, Tigwa, Hsing-I or an integrated understanding oif these?
For the same matter of adding or taking away from kata, let's take some purely Okinawan kata - Tomari te's Rinkan for example (glad to see it or its applications any time). When Nakasone practiced this, where the applications based on Quin Na, Tegumi, Tigwa, Hsing-I or an integrated understanding oif these?




Cant say, havent studied that kata.
Takes some time to study a specific kata.
I could guess?

Jude

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#388326 - 03/28/08 09:52 PM Re: China v Okinawa v Japan v Taiwan [Re: Mark Hill]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Mark:

Unless you have a personal need to visit Taiwan, China, Okinawa, etc. etc. why go any father than British Columbia, or California? Heck, I'd wager you could find some awfully credible folks (with excellent answers) within easy driving distance if the need was deep enough...



Unless you can talk to the particular individual shown what value will this particular knowledge hold? If it turns out to be Chin-Na or Ba Gwa Chang what do you do then? Walk away from what you've enjoyed, studied and found very satisfying thus far?

If McCarthy Sensei for example wants to find some "original source" material/application thats wonderful, but unlikely to have much-any import. Its fun to find the answers on our own... IMV

Jeff

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