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#388281 - 03/26/08 10:27 AM Can Karate Kata, be taught like Tai Chi Forms
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Ladies and Gentlemen,

Lend me your ears!!!

I have a question .

Rather than taking up Tai Chi for many years, Can Kata be taught in the same context and speed. If you think Yes, Which Kata (s) would you recommend.

Kushanku (Kanku Dai) I think is too Long.

Osu

_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#388282 - 03/26/08 10:30 AM Re: Can Karate Kata, be taught like Tai Chi Forms [Re: Dobbersky]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
well they can but without someone with good tai chi experieince, im not convinced of the benefits.

my personal take is to train a little tai chi, seperate from my karate - different primary reasons for training, require different methods IMO.
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#388283 - 03/26/08 12:18 PM Re: Can Karate Kata, be taught like Tai Chi Forms [Re: shoshinkan]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Unless you know enough about Taichi to reinterpret their principles into the karate kata you are practicing (its a helluva lot more than just moving slowly) I can't see what the point would be, and the only way to get that level of knowledge would be to go train in taichi.
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#388284 - 03/26/08 12:35 PM Re: Can Karate Kata, be taught like Tai Chi Forms [Re: Dobbersky]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Yes.

Any kata (long, medium or short) will do because there is no magic in the outer movements of any Tai Chi forms. The magic is in the specific internal visualisations and when to inhale/exhale that accompany each and every specific movement. In other words there must be 'internal' movements as well. And while you go into the form itself, you also need to do "Zhang Zhuang, Standing Stake", push-hands.

In other words the system comes in a package and not just the form itself. So if you have the package, any form will do. In fact the more well known Tai Chi Chuan, such as Wu, Chen, Yang, Sun all have different forms.

Also look at Tai Chi, Bagua & Xing Yi, there all look very different and yet still considered 'internal' arts.

After reading Shonuf's post, I'll say, yes, it's about putting Tai Chi principles into karate's kata, which I can, which is why I say yes. But for you, where and how would you start?


Edited by ButterflyPalm (03/26/08 12:43 PM)
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#388285 - 03/26/08 12:49 PM Re: Can Karate Kata, be taught like Tai Chi Forms [Re: Dobbersky]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Can a karate kata be ĎTai-Chi-izedí?

Certainly but there are a few things to think about.

Tai Chi is a complex martial art with millions of flavors, it is not just moving slow, but one aspect of its training, moving slowly helps build the movement potential of the body.

Tai Chi is not one concept or idea of training. Some groups use one approach, others use entirely different approaches. Tai Chi application potentials are found in karate kata.

Going slowly with a kata practice will not yield tai chi. It may help you learn how to move more efficiently in your kata (with years of practice at that) but it will not make it Tai Chi.

As counterpoint, Iíve practiced the Yang Longfist 108 TCC for over 30 years. About a decade ago I studied the Yang 24 but abandoned it because it was, IMO, too short to get into the full Tai Chi flow, preferring my longer original study.

I did a study a while ago taking the embusen of Isshinryu Seisan kata and replaced the techniques with Yang Tai Chi techniques. The resulting form study was quite good but after a year or so I abandoned it. My karate students were too focused on their karate studies to even take on a short tai chi form. Those who studied Yang with me werenít interested in any shorter study too.

Iím not sure there is sustained value taking a karate form and working it at tai chi speed. It depends on whether additional tai ch instruction was available to complete the effort.

Best wishes,
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#388286 - 03/27/08 03:28 PM Re: Can Karate Kata, be taught like Tai Chi Forms [Re: Victor Smith]
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
Quote:

...one aspect of its training, moving slowly helps build the movement potential of the body...




Probably what I harp on the most! Ultra slow kata can be very beneficial, but perhaps not on a metaphysical level.
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#388287 - 03/27/08 09:48 PM Re: Can Karate Kata, be taught like Tai Chi Forms [Re: Dobbersky]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Dobbersky:

Short answer is absolutely, Y-E-S. The hard part obviously are those pesky details. The slow very careful attention to tiny details... weight, contraction... breathing.

Tensho Kata would be the easy answer. But any older Okinawan kata could/should be retrofitted quite happily as a generic rule. Myself, I would avoid any kata that required dynamic/deep stances if the goal were study in the TC manner. Any of the newer "Itosu" forms would not work nearly as well as their older predecessors IMV-fwiw.

If your goal were Tai Chi Chuan, the "Grand Ultimate Fist" prolonged deep stance work would be necessary exploration as well... IMHO. But healthy chi gung type exercise... an older kata should suffice. We may not have a systemic
"decoder key" but the careful exploration, the curiousity IMHV should provide very ample material to study.

If Tensho were not available, then Seisan kata IMV should work nicely. I might commit serious heresay and perhaps jury rig Sanchin kata if the mood struck me but its brevity-length seems prohibitive for the type of study I think you are proposing... what in particular did you have in mind prey tell?

Merely my heretical opinion, I could surely be mistaken,

Jeff

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#388288 - 03/28/08 07:44 AM Re: Can Karate Kata, be taught like Tai Chi Forms [Re: Ronin1966]
ThunderboltLotus Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 16
Loc: Cornwall, Great Britain
Absolutely. One JKA instructor Isaka 'discovered' Tai chi like slow motion training in ALL aspects of Karate including kata. (and no i m not suggesting slow motion is all there is - i ve taught tai chi since 95) Isaka competed successfully in the Jka champs into his 50's and from what i hear is still amazing in his mid to late 60's.
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#388289 - 03/28/08 11:38 AM Re: Can Karate Kata, be taught like Tai Chi Forms [Re: ThunderboltLotus]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I'll practice this way when I want to pay attention to another set of details like energy details. When doing my karate kata slowly, I'll pay attention to whether the chest is Yin or Yang and the corresponding breathing. I'll twist more and pay attention to how the wave of energy is moving through to my strikes. I think it improves my kata for when I do them at normal speed.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#388290 - 03/28/08 12:08 PM Re: Can Karate Kata, be taught like Tai Chi Forms [Re: Dobbersky]
Bossman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Chatham Kent UK
Quote:

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Lend me your ears!!!

I have a question .

Rather than taking up Tai Chi for many years, Can Kata be taught in the same context and speed. If you think Yes, Which Kata (s) would you recommend.

Kushanku (Kanku Dai) I think is too Long.

Osu






The problem is that you would have to have study tai chi quire extensively to understand how to apply the internal principles to the karate kata.....
_________________________
supporting standards in the martial arts www.shikon.com www.masa.org.uk

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