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#387565 - 04/01/08 09:35 AM
Re: By Jove I think they've got it!
[Re: Bossman]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
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From a Tai chi perspective is it proper in Tai Chi to hunch your back to creat the coiling energy or should this all be done from the hollowing of the chest to send it from feet through the arms with a straight back? Is there a proper way to do this or does both method work?
I was looking for some other Goju/Uechi/Kempo guys to weigh in! Don't leave us hanging.
Edited by Neko456 (04/01/08 09:37 AM)
_________________________
DBAckerson
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#387566 - 04/01/08 09:41 AM
Re: By Jove I think they've got it!
[Re: Neko456]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6660
Loc: Amherst, MA
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I can only contribute a little bit from my observations of others. My teacher definitely does a pronounced hunch/hollowing during rigorous 'sanchin' and 'tensho' for practice...but it seems to be more of a coordination of opening the shoulder/gate?? and completion of 'emptying the breath'.
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#387567 - 04/01/08 10:05 AM
Re: By Jove I think they've got it!
[Re: Bossman]
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Enthusiast
Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 602
Loc: London, UK
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Bossman very interesting posts. I've heard it said that in the end all martial arts are internal arts and I think that providing the student knows how to listen to their bodies as well as develop their fighting, it is a very true statement. I think that this is a large part of the point of kata/forms training, i,e, to allow the student to study what goes on inside of himself without the distraction of an opponent. Much of what you mention about the 4 principles I think eventually begins to come naturally (at least to some degree) to many an MAist even though they have not the words to describe it. I'm curious about one of the questions you asked earlier. You mentioned the 5 animals, do their representative traits correspond to the 5 elements or do they hold different meanings based around the nature of the animal? If they correpond to the elements then I'm guessing your question was about manifestations of jin like the one's you mentioned in the push hands clip, (or am I confusing this with something else)? How you do these 5 animals manifest in Taichi and more interestingly how do you see them manifest in the Wado ryu you teach? Quote:
Sanchin is the perfect way to practice this, Tensho adds the 'floating' waist and the 'asking hand' converting touch to one of the 5 animal hands and Naihanchi builds another layer to 'spit' by categorising the different methods of power sourcing and transfer from the body.
I've heard of "floating waist" from my White crane training, but I've not heard of "asking hand", could you explain this?
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!
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#387568 - 04/01/08 11:19 AM
Re: By Jove I think they've got it!
[Re: Neko456]
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Veteran
Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Chatham Kent UK
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Quote:
From a Tai chi perspective is it proper in Tai Chi to hunch your back to creat the coiling energy or should this all be done from the hollowing of the chest to send it from feet through the arms with a straight back? Is there a proper way to do this or does both method work?
You 'open and raise the back' - it's never forced - and coil the waist or the entire body.
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#387569 - 04/01/08 11:29 AM
Re: By Jove I think they've got it!
[Re: Shonuff]
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Veteran
Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Chatham Kent UK
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Quote:
Shonuff:
I'm curious about one of the questions you asked earlier. You mentioned the 5 animals, do their representative traits correspond to the 5 elements or do they hold different meanings based around the nature of the animal?
If they correpond to the elements then I'm guessing your question was about manifestations of jin like the one's you mentioned in the push hands clip, (or am I confusing this with something else)?
How you do these 5 animals manifest in Taichi and more interestingly how do you see them manifest in the Wado ryu you teach?
I was referring to the 5 animal hands in Tensho, snake, crane, tiger, leopard and dragon.
In tai chi, the same as karate we work with many animals because of the Chinese folklore, but primarily within every movement we will use the tiger, snake and crane.
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#387570 - 04/01/08 12:11 PM
Re: By Jove I think they've got it!
[Re: Bossman]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
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I thought that Tensho displayed Crane, Snake & Dragon, I was not aware of any Tiger and Leapord in its training maybe Leopard because of the narrow stance and sly movements.
What about what kin eye harlan mentioned the opening and closing of the gate/chest in coiling could you explain that and what Reverse breathing vs. Budduha breaths purpose in and relation to open/closing or hollowing the chest.
How does it open so it opens downward and sideward until concave, rather than contracting inward until concave as in regular breathing?
_________________________
DBAckerson
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#387571 - 04/01/08 12:22 PM
Re: By Jove I think they've got it!
[Re: Neko456]
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Veteran
Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Chatham Kent UK
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Actually, I gave you the order of the animals with the hands in my last post... each hand is attributable to each animal, with a bit of imagination you can work out an entire 'style' with each hand. I also forgot to say that the 'asking hand' is bridging and 'asking' for the touch which is directly transmitted to the waist to enable you to disrupt.
The softening in the chest is called 'sau hung' and is important for health. If you can't drain your energy it will stay in your head making you angry or emotional and ill. There are 5 softenings and on the fifth you will feel that point connect to your feet, as the chest softens, so the back opens. This also helps to release the waist for coiling. I wouldn't relate it to breathing, that would be a mistake IMO.
It softens and 'sinks' until it internally connects to the arches of the feet.
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#387572 - 04/01/08 04:23 PM
Re: By Jove I think they've got it!
[Re: Bossman]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
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I wouldn't relate it to breathing, that would be a mistake IMO.
Ok so how far off are the principles of Sanchin and Tensho which I was taught to be deveolpment of Toma's Iron Shirt training and Tensho a compromises of Pakua and S. White Crane which in Goju breaths on each hand movement except for stepping.
_________________________
DBAckerson
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#387573 - 04/01/08 04:39 PM
Re: By Jove I think they've got it!
[Re: Neko456]
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Veteran
Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
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Clever stuff Neko and Bossman. Good conversation.
Jude
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#387574 - 04/01/08 04:49 PM
Re: By Jove I think they've got it!
[Re: Neko456]
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Veteran
Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Chatham Kent UK
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Quote:
I wouldn't relate it to breathing, that would be a mistake IMO.
Ok so how far off are the principles of Sanchin and Tensho which I was taught to be deveolpment of Toma's Iron Shirt training and Tensho a compromises of Pakua and S. White Crane which in Goju breaths on each hand movement except for stepping.
Ah... didn't realise we were talking Sanchin there. We link the breathing in qigong. In Sanchin we have the 3 levels of breath, the body determines the type of breath 1st level is slightly deeper than 'normal' breath (followed by a half breath for beginners) in the second section we stomach breathe in followed by a 'back' in breath as the ribs are lifted breathing out from the back as the ribs drop and the stomach as the core muscles compress. (Of course I realise you don't actually do that but that's what it 'feels' like).
The mawashi uke is the 'restrained and 'gasping' breath still utilising the above ideas.
In Tensho we breathe naturally.
Hope that helps?
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