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#387475 - 03/20/08 05:22 AM By Jove I think they've got it!
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
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Finally!

Someone seems to have remembered that Goju ryu is supposed to have soft elements.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=uzFJ2BrmYZc&feature=related

After studying Crane kungfu and seeing how their system is arranged I have often thought that Goju ryu was meant to start with Sanchin, followed by Tensho, with everything else following on from this basis of the Hard/Soft dichotomy expressed in these forms.

However this is the first time I've seen anyone aside from Nathan Johnson make any real use of Tensho, and especially think to derive chi sau/push hands drills which would help develop the student's close quarter skills and work towards bridging the gap between how Gojuka do things and their southern chinese style counterparts.

I'd had it in mind that if I never found anything like this I would develop it myself, glad to see I don't have to.

Gojuka, is this drill as new to you as it is to me, or is it one of those things you just don't see much if you haven't trained Goju for years?
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#387476 - 03/20/08 06:32 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Finally!

Someone seems to have remembered that Goju ryu is supposed to have soft elements.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=uzFJ2BrmYZc&feature=related

After studying Crane kungfu and seeing how their system is arranged I have often thought that Goju ryu was meant to start with Sanchin, followed by Tensho, with everything else following on from this basis of the Hard/Soft dichotomy expressed in these forms.

However this is the first time I've seen anyone aside from Nathan Johnson make any real use of Tensho, and especially think to derive chi sau/push hands drills which would help develop the student's close quarter skills and work towards bridging the gap between how Gojuka do things and their southern chinese style counterparts.

I'd had it in mind that if I never found anything like this I would develop it myself, glad to see I don't have to.

Gojuka, is this drill as new to you as it is to me, or is it one of those things you just don't see much if you haven't trained Goju for years?




From my studies.

I wouldnt call quite call myself a goju ka, this is one of the reason people have been harping on about studying Okinawan karate, kakie is chi sau .and studying history.

I dont think the drill they are doing are correct.
I personaly wouldnt train with them .
And I am an absolute complete total begginer in this method.
Go back to san chin/ zan chin principles and see what you think.


Goju doesnt start with sanchin. White crane does.


As soon as physical contact is made with the opponent it is called bringing them in to kakie.
They have been doing this on Okinawa since the art was created. It was more than likely practiced in other strains of china hand.I think it was. There are elements of it in shoto kan karate kata.

One thing that comes to my mind might be the Okinawans condition their bodies and use the conditioned fist more.

The guys who take the art to what it is meant to be include the basics of ti.

Fitness
Strength
Makaiwari in all its different forms
condtitioning
Grappling

and I would go as far to say ground grappling.

To many people using the ignore button.
But I am a student so maybe thats why my comments are sometimes ignored.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/20/08 06:46 AM)

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#387477 - 03/20/08 07:57 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: jude33]
CVV Offline
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Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
I only use one hand kakie drills, to learn push-pull and maintain balance. Key is not strength but use opponents strength to unbalance him. Never done two handed drills as we see on the film.

I do train yakosoku kumite derived from tensho using wrist-locks, schoulder locks, deflections with attacking the elbow joint and deflections attacking with hand slaps or grabbing the groin. These drills can be trained left or right but with real intent to strike or grab or kick. Of course starting comnplient then picking up speed and intent to train with real focus on fighting.
Apart from this film I have never seen it in the goju community that I know as 2-handed drill. But then my referential base is not that big.

As for training goju not starting with sanchin.
It is true that for kids and adolescents < 14, the sanchin kata is not stressed and more focus is on the gekisai kata. However sanchin kata is the basic training kata for goju-ryu. The order before WWII was sanchin and next tokui kata assigned to you. Order after WWII became gekisai 1, gekisai 2, sanchin, the 8 classical kata (saifa, seiunchin, shishochin, sanseru, sepai, sesan, kururunfa, suparinpei ususally in that order but it does not matter), tensho.
My training schedules ussually start with sanchin kata after warm-up and end the training with tensho kata.

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#387478 - 03/20/08 10:31 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: jude33]
Shonuff Offline
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Loc: London, UK
Quote:


I wouldnt call quite call myself a goju ka, this is one of the reason people have been harping on about studying Okinawan karate, kakie is chi sau




It might be a step on the way to chi sau, but it is not chi sau. For a student Jude you do a lot of telling and not a lot of studying.

CVV
The pattern you describe would suggest that a Gojuka is meant to train through the system with the hard Sanchin mindset, and then perhaps retrain with the intention of re-examining the kata and training with a softer Tensho mindset.

That would mean that after geksai brought up basic fitness, co-ordination and balance, the student would develop his internal power and strengthen himself from the inside out through the battle of mind body and breath a la sanchin.
This tough "hard work" approach would permeate all training constantly pushing the student into higher realms of physical and mental toughness. Application would concentrate on the basic linear hard elements of the kata and of fighting through drills like kakie and ippon kumite and sparring until Tensho is reached. The student then revisits the classical kata and engages in the longer term study of the complete potential of the movements of each form applying soft circular concepts and developing a base of new skills through two person drills such as chi sau, flow drills and free sparring.
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#387479 - 03/20/08 12:04 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



I wouldnt call quite call myself a goju ka, this is one of the reason people have been harping on about studying Okinawan karate, kakie is chi sau




It might be a step on the way to chi sau, but it is not chi sau. For a student Jude you do a lot of telling and not a lot of studying.





My students, who does study a fair bit, thoughts,
I bet when you study further, you might that it might be.

If you would like to do a comparison at some time then I would be realy, realy interested in that. It would be very educational

I would like to suggest a comparison between kakie and chi sau, I am not realy interested in a comparison to who has trained with whom .

Kakie to me it is one of the things to reach the end goal.
Namely the attacker loses. And as stated it isnt to widely practiced.


You are refering this to just goju.
I think this was in a way also fitted in to how certain strains of ti was trained and indeed later other strains of chinese hand.



But me still being a student I suppose I can state "I think" its what students do , they learn.




Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/20/08 12:06 PM)

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#387480 - 03/20/08 04:09 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Hey, I think the guy in the video posted a bit earlier in the renzoku thread, he was "ndj" I think. Maybe he should add to this thread, since it's his stuff being discussed, not the way I do things but I thought his drills were nice.

So yeah NDJ, speaketh upeth if you're reading!

Edit, I must've misunderstood, I assume NDJ is the Nathan Johnson you're referring to.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/20/08 04:29 PM)

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#387481 - 03/20/08 06:49 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Zack,

Nathan Johnson is a British Karateka with some wierd ideas about Karate being a zen practice/explicitly for weapons not empty hand etc etc. I think every new idea he gets he writes a book. £££

He has developed a style of Karate which he seems to have settled on, that uses only Sanchin Tensho and Naihanchi kata's. Skills are developed through flow drills and chi sau. It's good stuff from what I've seen, but early on he or his group made the usual "Original true karate" claims.

If NDJ has any comment it would be more than welcome, I applaud him and his school for the progressive approach to developing their art.
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#387482 - 03/20/08 07:22 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Jude -

I will agree with Shonuff. Kakie is similar to chi sao, but it is not the same thing. Kakie seems more closely related to the Tai Chi push-hands drills that I have seen.

The Chi Sao that I have seen and practiced has a much broader range of technique, and is used against more realistic resistance.
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#387483 - 03/20/08 08:11 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
I really like alot of what this group does, much the same as I really like alot of what Nathan Johnson's group does.

excellent arts IMO, have no doubt the ammount of work that went/goes into developing or 'finding' this level of understanding and presentation of ideas.

I don't agree with all of it, but thats fine by me.
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www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#387484 - 03/20/08 08:50 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: MattJ]
MattJ Offline
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Not to hijack, but see here for chi sao as I understand it, for comparison:

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...=0#Post15990403
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#387485 - 03/20/08 09:25 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: MattJ]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Hate to say it, but i've seen kakie practiced the way you guys are doing Chi Sao in the videos.

It's less common but i've seen it, i've done it in a similar manner sometimes.

So while there may be some philosophical differences, I would say the 2 things are more of a continuum than seperate entities.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/20/08 09:25 PM)

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#387486 - 03/21/08 07:54 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: MattJ]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Matt,

Though it is a good practice I wouldn't count what you showed as being chi sau either, though it began from a single hand chi sau position. Chi sau practice involves you always keeping contact with your opponents limbs.

Chi-sau or sticky hands is a sensitivity exercise performed either single handed or with both hands. It develops relaxation and tactile sensitivity through which one can sense intention and respond to it. It trains primarily non resistive blending type defense and is a hallmark of many southern chinese kungfu styles.

wing chun chi sau
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaP1X-lEtgc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0Q-jZ7fuws

You'll notice the blindfold in the second clip (as well as the incredibly smooth jazz soundtrack) which is a hallmark of the skills developed in this type of practice, i.e. response to movement felt not seen.

An important point is that chi sau is a training drill and not the be all and end all of combat.

5 Ancestors
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oZraRtBDlg

In this clip you see some of how chi sau skills can be applied practically. As you can see contact is broken in much the same way as shown in Matt's vids, but when he has contact Sifu Leong deflects and traps his opponents motions the instant they happen.

You'll also note that both the wing chun and the 5 ancestors teachers kept square to their opponent. Western fight philosophy likes to use half facing and since people learned TKD many use a complete side-on stance.
Close quarter styles fight square-on to the opponent in order to employ both hands and feet to the fullest extent and minimise potential blind-siding (as you have with one shoulder forward).
Goju ryu kata shows technique square to the opponent as it is from the same southern chinese philosophy, but up until now as far as I could tell it seemed to be missing the exercises that helped develop the skill sets that accompanied the theory.

here's another Chi-sau-esq practice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GutCwLlWoe8
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#387487 - 03/21/08 11:15 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
MattJ Offline
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Shonuff -

Fair point, what we do is not orthodox Chi Sao. I should have been more clear. Thanks for the vids.

Zach -

I don't discount the possibility of karate schools doing the same thing in kakie, just haven't seen it myself yet.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#387488 - 03/21/08 07:18 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
CVV Offline
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Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Quote:


The pattern you describe would suggest that a Gojuka is meant to train through the system with the hard Sanchin mindset, and then perhaps retrain with the intention of re-examining the kata and training with a softer Tensho mindset.

That would mean that after geksai brought up basic fitness, co-ordination and balance, the student would develop his internal power and strengthen himself from the inside out through the battle of mind body and breath a la sanchin.
This tough "hard work" approach would permeate all training constantly pushing the student into higher realms of physical and mental toughness. Application would concentrate on the basic linear hard elements of the kata and of fighting through drills like kakie and ippon kumite and sparring until Tensho is reached. The student then revisits the classical kata and engages in the longer term study of the complete potential of the movements of each form applying soft circular concepts and developing a base of new skills through two person drills such as chi sau, flow drills and free sparring.




In a sence yes. I agree that initially the hard mindset is stressed in training although the soft is already taken with it in the beginning. Problem is that the soft aspects are not understood in the beginning. But towards training, tensho is trained every training, at least in our school
and within Uchiage-kai branch here in Belgium.
A good training kata to try to understand the soft aspects is seiunchin wich has a lot of circular techniques in it with large movements in low stance (shiko-dachi).

I also believe as you state that in time, your fighting becomes softer through training the kata and applying in yakusoku kumite and jyu kumite. The video MATTJ posted is a bit in line with some training fighting we do, but I never call this chisao or kakie training.
I have an instructional video of Morio Higaonna starting from the kakie position (one handed) initiating kakie then as he pushes or pulls executing techniques from kata. Sort of predefined kakie-bunkai sets.

Revisiting the classical kata, investigating concepts made aware through training is a never ending process wich makes training interesting imo.

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#387489 - 03/21/08 07:44 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
Neko456 Offline
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Posts: 3260
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I see the Gojuka as demo of flowing hand Tensho like movement. Emphasizing flow and soft movement which are the building blocks to Chi Sao practice but not application.
I do notice there were no across the body movement in the Gojuka demo and wonder why. I find it good practice to build upon and not loose the essence of Go Ju.

The other WC and Ancestor vidoes showed application of of sticking hand techniques almost slap boxing using these principles in the Ancestor demo, not the start of how techiques flows as in the Gojuka demo.

If you already got the flow and know how to use it then the GoJuka would be invalid to you, if you need to know it would be valid, not to forget whats going on everything is not hard. This type movement or mindset starts standing all the way to the ground he feels the door opening as he pushes and it being slamed in his face.

If you really want to see Goju's Chi-Sao like flow application watch the Taira Sensei's Sepia Bunkia. Youtube it.



Edited by Neko456 (03/21/08 07:51 PM)
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#387490 - 03/21/08 08:58 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Neko456]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmExIWEglSo

I agree, nice stuff.

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#387491 - 03/22/08 07:02 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Neko456]
Shonuff Offline
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Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Neko

I've seen it before and I said the same thing then as I said now. The difference is that some folks chimed in about how unrealistic and compliant the demo was and how real fights can't work like that.

The thing is I've never seen anyone other than Taira sensei use Goju ryu in this manner, and in truth the vid does show a pre-arranged demo. That's not to say no one else does use Goju in this way, hence my asking if I was missing something, but those who do not have a better chance of getting there by incorporating flow drills and chisau practice like the one I put up. Taira Sensei moves through the kata bunkai in the demo, in a real altercation you just cant do that. The ability to flow and adapt to what is happening is the point of chi-sau and though the skills in discussion can be developed without it, I don't think they will come as quickly or to the same degree of applicability.

The drill I posted should be practiced for the first 5 minutes of each session as a non conflicting movement exercise where the cycle of of push deflect and counter is continued seemlessly. The focus is to keep in contact only and is challenged only by the students changing speed on each other, and with the Tensho drills shown their is the potential to work on switching heights during the drill, effectively begining the student on looking for openings but more importantly starts the student learning to relax and work from sensitivity.

Then do the same but while moving while trying to keep square to the opponent.
Return to stationary with eyes closed
Moving with eyes closed

Then students work on trying to unbalance while stationary. This is the begining of wrestling, as students progress joint locks etc can be included and movement allowed but no striking so the student learns to flow and unbalance without emphasis on resistance.

Then striking begins while stationary, where any hand technique is allowed. Students should work on learning trapping and escapes from traps, all of which I see in tensho.

Introduce kicking,
Introduce unbalancing while stationary,

Then striking and unbalancing while moving, i,e, anything upper body is allowed plus sweeps and trips, the only aim is students build all of their techniques from contact.
Add kicking.

Then if you want you can do the full chi sau exercise where anything goes while both parties are blindfolded.

This type of training develops the unconscious senses and responses of your body while teaching your mind to listen to those senses and examine new ways of seeking openings to your opponent. Whatever level you are at, the key to this training is to be relaxed. You will get hit, and you will land on the opponent but it doesn't matter. If you are not relaxed your body isn't learning anything. Where your mind learns is in the careful examination of your opponents defense. What happens when you push straight down the middle, what about when his hand is at this part of the cycle, if I trap like this but don't hit how do I follow without giving up the advantage, etc.

Relaxation is everything. Students always start to tense up when striking or unbalancing begins, but the exercise is to teach you to find a defense without resisiting.

Always stop and look at why you got hit and think how could I have moved to evade and take advantage of his position.
At each stage of training look inside yourself and see if you are tensing up, if so go back to the base movement until you are relaxed and begin again.
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#387492 - 03/22/08 01:02 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Matt,

Though it is a good practice I wouldn't count what you showed as being chi sau either, though it began from a single hand chi sau position. Chi sau practice involves you always keeping contact with your opponents limbs.

Chi-sau or sticky hands is a sensitivity exercise performed either single handed or with both hands. It develops relaxation and tactile sensitivity through which one can sense intention and respond to it. It trains primarily non resistive blending type defense and is a hallmark of many southern chinese kungfu styles.





The problem I have from the videos is how does a person know that the Chi-sau/ shown is how it was meant to be used? From my readings there are other drills in white crane?
I havent seen them yet. I have seen one drill from white crane using zan chin that makes sense to me. That was getting the centre line and off balance-ing the opponent.


So at what stage does the training become resistive?
Drills are fine. To be honest I can stand all day using the maki- wari.


A pressure testing method might be for someone with the skills to try it against a fast hard boxer or a trained wrestler.
I recall seeing a top wing chun guys in MMA competion and the apparent skills said to be learned from such method's trained in the videos isnt used at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epCbRTofOHw&feature=related

Here as you posted is the skills they are supposed to have trained?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaP1X-lEtgc

Why is that?

The next question is what if the opponent isnt in close or moves out of range? I dont see any method of training/ skill set to keep the partner in close range??

Its one of the problems I find with this kind of training.
Its not trained at any time under pressure, or when it is then they dont use it.

Again some of the answers I think are in ti, certain existing karate techniques, combined with grappling skills.

In fact my research in the origins of ti are leading me that direction as well.



I think what Medulant was refering to, the fact that his wrestling ability gave him insight into karate as well as kata, and the methods of use of ti is more than likely correct.




Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/22/08 01:29 PM)

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#387493 - 03/22/08 02:36 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Neko

I've seen it before and I said the same thing then as I said now. The difference is that some folks chimed in about how unrealistic and compliant the demo was and how real fights can't work like that.




Real fights do work like that in one sense, one person dominates the other, and gives him no opportunities to reverse the situation, I'm willing to bet that Taira and his students are perfectly capable of doing just that, though admittedly that's not what's being shown here.

Taking one demo and drawing sweeping conclusions about a whole training method is a little silly.

Quote:


The thing is I've never seen anyone other than Taira sensei use Goju ryu in this manner, and in truth the vid does show a pre-arranged demo. That's not to say no one else does use Goju in this way, hence my asking if I was missing something, but those who do not have a better chance of getting there by incorporating flow drills and chisau practice like the one I put up. Taira Sensei moves through the kata bunkai in the demo, in a real altercation you just cant do that. The ability to flow and adapt to what is happening is the point of chi-sau and though the skills in discussion can be developed without it, I don't think they will come as quickly or to the same degree of applicability.





With all due respect Shonuff, I think it's fairly accurate to say that the practice of 'flow' type drills (some of which resemble chisao) is not unusual in Goju Ryu.

Also I don't agree that formal chisao practice is somehow superior to this vein of bunkai practice, in the end you can't 'do' chisao in a fight and come out on top either, there is something to be said for drills which are more one-sided like the one posted, as long as there is the more resistant component involved as well.

Toguchi-Ha Goju bunkai drills tend to be more equal in terms of both sides exchanging techniques, IMO that's not neccessarily a superior approach, we all know that action is faster than reaction and it is worth considering the idea that too much reliance on 'sensitivty' creates a "reactive" mindset. Just a thought.

Anyway, look at the gekisai drill posted in the renzoku thread, that is a wide ranging beginner bunkai drill that is less compliant, it's not my favorite particularly but I figured i'd point it out because it's something that alot of Goju schools seem to use.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/22/08 02:44 PM)

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#387494 - 03/22/08 03:47 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: jude33]
Shonuff Offline
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Quote:


The problem I have from the videos is how does a person know that the Chi-sau/ shown is how it was meant to be used?





They go to a wingchun school or a white crane school and they learn it from the teacher. Karate may have had a problem with the transmission of the art but most chinese styles if trained through a reputable linneage (and often times when not) are well understood and passed on as intended.


Quote:


I havent seen them yet. I have seen one drill from white crane using zan chin that makes sense to me. That was getting the centre line and off balance-ing the opponent.






Find a school and train with them, then you will know.


Quote:


So at what stage does the training become resistive?
Drills are fine.




When the students doing the exercise are ready to. If you make yourself hard during the exercise you won't develop the skills the chi-sau are designed to teach. If you want to attack or be attacked with full strength and speed you should, but I'd wait until you are skilled enough to employ softer defense methods at lower speeds.


Quote:


A pressure testing method might be for someone with the skills to try it against a fast hard boxer or a trained wrestler.




Yup, thats a perfectly good pressure test. The thing to remember is that if it doesn't work it may mean you need to train more until you can make it work.


Quote:


I recall seeing a top wing chun guys in MMA competion and the apparent skills said to be learned from such method's trained in the videos isnt used at all.






http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epCbRTofOHw&feature=related

Here as you posted is the skills they are supposed to have trained?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaP1X-lEtgc

Why is that?





Shonuff said:
Quote:

An important point is that chi-sau is a training drill and not the be all and end all of combat.





Perhaps he didn't feel those methods were appropriate against that fighter, and figured the choke would be fine?
Perhaps he's not that great at applying those methods?
Perhaps he feels it is not an effective method in free fighting?
Perhaps he focussed on other things in training?
Perhaps he doesn't like applying methods like that?
Perhaps he doesn't know how to apply those skills in free combat?
Perhaps he thought other aspects of wingchun would be easier to apply in that instance?

Ultimately to answer that question you would need to expand your research into actually training with some folks and seeing what they think.

What I can tell you is that there is a vid on youtube of the same wingchun guy teaching chi-sau. Perhaps that can give you some insight into your question.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKkp19KV9xg&feature=related

Quote:


The next question is what if the opponent isnt in close or moves out of range? I dont see any method of training/ skill set to keep the partner in close range??




a) Use something else
b) Hold him
c) Footwork
d) Bridging


Quote:


Its one of the problems I find with this kind of training.
Its not trained at any time under pressure, or when it is then they dont use it.




As I said you would need to find a school and train it as opposed to watching demo vids on youtube to find out how and when resistance is added. Once you've learned the method then you can take it and add as much resistance as you like for your personal development.

Quote:


Again some of the answers I think are in ti, certain existing karate techniques, combined with grappling skills.

In fact my research in the origins of ti are leading me that direction as well.

I think what Medulant was refering to, the fact that his wrestling ability gave him insight into karate as well as kata, and the methods of use of ti is more than likely correct.





Best of luck with your research Jude, and I think your on the right track, Karate plus grappling = formidable fighter!
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#387495 - 03/22/08 05:39 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
jude33 Offline
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-232DNU8_TI


For some reason this makes more sense to me. The guy is resisting some what
This is the write up. See what you and others think.
You say go and train with people. I do. But unless I can see
something where I will gain some kind of skills then I wont.
To many pretenders.
Time would then be better spent on basics, fitness, weight training.

This what the young guy who took part wrote about .
This took place at windy city's wing chun 5th annual seminar. I take no credit at all, as my Sifu just showed some superior blocking skills.

If you know what to look for you can see tons of different concepts being applied.

The 1st thing to notice is that a skilled practioner really just blocks the majority of the time, the unskilled, tries to cover that up by simply blizting the attack. Its very common in the wing chun world for many to do that.

Also, what how blocks come about, its not done by the hand but by the body.


You can visually see this since sifu's center stays consistent throughout, and simply turns in conjunction with the amount of force,

while the hands don't chase out which is a common no no in wing chun. Let the attacks come to your house, and the closer they are the safer it is for you. All to often, people will shoot out their hands trying to reach out to block.

Blocking is a simple concept but difficult to do, know the person's centerline,


have your triangle constantly point to that indivudals center line, and go with the force. While there are many more concepts involved these are the general three which one must follow to develop superior blocking skills.

Finally in some glimpses you see freezing out motions, where you can literally lock out your opponents motions, by simply holding your structure and techincally freezing his hand motion.


All to often wing chun is confused with the concept of sticky hands. Sticky hands is not about sticking to people, its making people stick to you.


Out in the street, people will not do sticky hands in a real fight, what your developing is the ability so that people will stick to your hands. In a simple concept imagine your hands as blades, if you position your blades in the right angle, whatever touches it will cut into it, thus forcing that individual to stick.

This to me is one idea of bringing someone into kakie.

Anyway, if you want to get good in wing chun, practice blocking more then attacking. If you can block anything thrown at you, you can then attack at will. (less)


Edited by jude33 (03/22/08 05:50 PM)

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#387496 - 03/22/08 08:58 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: jude33]
Shonuff Offline
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Quote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-232DNU8_TI


For some reason this makes more sense to me. The guy is resisting some what
This is the write up. See what you and others think.
You say go and train with people. I do. But unless I can see
something where I will gain some kind of skills then I wont.
To many pretenders.
Time would then be better spent on basics, fitness, weight training.





Good excuse.

The vid you posted shows wingchun defense more than attack, but it is nothing different to the others on the thread. Good find though.
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#387497 - 03/22/08 11:50 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:



Good excuse.




More like rational thinking.
Quote:


The vid you posted shows wingchun defense more than attack, but it is nothing different to the others on the thread. Good find though.




I think it is. I think there were those that completed their studies under Yip Man and those that didint. I think the difference was it was done more against resistance and the guy doing it knew what he was doing.
I would have no objections to training like this or with him.
I can see it fitting in to what I do.

In a way I think its one of many drills and perhaps going back to how a part of karate should have been trained along with grappling.

Another thing that has come up in my studies. A lot of people who look to train white crane further seem to travel to Taiwan.

I am aware there is a diffence between white crane and wing chun.

Jude

Just my thoughts.


Edited by jude33 (03/23/08 12:28 AM)

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#387498 - 03/24/08 02:52 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
Neko456 Offline
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Taira Sensei moves through the kata bunkai in the demo, in a real altercation you just cant do that. The ability to flow and adapt to what is happening is the point of chi-sau and though the skills in discussion can be developed without it, I don't think they will come as quickly or to the same degree of applicability.

I agree Chi-Sau is more self expressive then that, but I was just saying the principles of flowing with the opponents movement was in that example. I do agree with you No one could stay standing if he connected with those inside strikes, joint locks, grion slaps, elbows to temple and side of the head and etc. But as you can see I see it different then you not that a real fight doesn't move like that but that if u had those connections, that wouldn't last that long.

That demo was basicaily a flow drill incoroperating Chi Sau like principle but it wasn't free movement Chi Sau.

It showd Goju's perfered range of fighting isn't TKD/Kumite range.
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#387499 - 03/24/08 04:38 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
Bossman Offline
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Quote:

Finally!

Someone seems to have remembered that Goju ryu is supposed to have soft elements.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=uzFJ2BrmYZc&feature=related

After studying Crane kungfu and seeing how their system is arranged I have often thought that Goju ryu was meant to start with Sanchin, followed by Tensho, with everything else following on from this basis of the Hard/Soft dichotomy expressed in these forms.

However this is the first time I've seen anyone aside from Nathan Johnson make any real use of Tensho, and especially think to derive chi sau/push hands drills which would help develop the student's close quarter skills and work towards bridging the gap between how Gojuka do things and their southern chinese style counterparts.

I'd had it in mind that if I never found anything like this I would develop it myself, glad to see I don't have to.

Gojuka, is this drill as new to you as it is to me, or is it one of those things you just don't see much if you haven't trained Goju for years?




What I see is a very basic taiji push hands drill that could be applied to Tensho, as could many others. Every part of a move in Tensho can be used for many different applications and these can be run off a lot of push hands drills (I don't know if the video is just one of many for these guys). We certainly use many and then run them into freestyle.

Nathan Johnson is an enthusiastic martial artist with a great 'outside of the box' view for many karateka that he enjoys sharing, I think it's unfair to view him as a £££ merchant for sharing. I have known him for nearly 2 decades and he is always a delight to train and share with.
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#387500 - 03/24/08 07:47 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Bossman]
Shonuff Offline
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Bossman,

Pehaps I was a touch judgemental, as I said, I certainly believe he knows his stuff and I think combining Sanchin Tensho and Naihanchi into a single system was inspired. Sometimes though his presentation leaves a lot to be desired.

As for the drill, it is good to hear that there are others out there working contact range. I made some suggestions on how to make use of chisau drills, perhaps you can add to it or tell us about some of the drills your school uses?
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#387501 - 03/24/08 08:27 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
Bossman Offline
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I find chi sao too jeky and 'sticky'for me, I prefer more blending and redirecting or wedging more efficient, There's a bit of my push hands here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTTitoEzvlA
But I'm not sure it's that representative of what we are talking about here, I'd have to show Tensho push hands and applications.
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#387502 - 03/24/08 11:02 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Bossman]
Neko456 Offline
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That was a good shot cut purposeful application to the end results of Chi sau without the constant feed back, but an instant responce to incoming and still showing how to blend and flow with incoming. I fully agree that you don't have to or need to move back in and forth to fend or eventually return an assault.

I do see Chi sau as a middle ground but not the only way to the wedge principle and a way to do this effortlessly.
As I mentioned in the Taria/Sepia bunkia the flow of an assault can be over in 3 seconds if done properly and unexpected, no one really expects to be taken out after their 1st couple strikes.

Predator or prey is a good way to look at things and its more simpler then the Reptile function of the Brain idea.
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#387503 - 03/24/08 12:14 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Bossman]
Shonuff Offline
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I feel the same about wing chun chi-sau and prefer the white crane version of the exercise. Unfortunately I couldn't find any video's of it.

Great vid, it is good that there are martial artists like you who are so willing to share their knowledge.
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#387504 - 03/24/08 12:17 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
harlan Offline
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Shonuff:

Nenad, the Goju stylist you refer to, doesn't really post here. If you'd like to discuss his Goju, he posts regularly at www.gojuryu.net

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#387505 - 03/24/08 12:28 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: harlan]
Shonuff Offline
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Nenad? is that the ndj bloke someone mentioned?
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#387506 - 03/24/08 12:32 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
harlan Offline
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Yes. sorry...thought you'd read the previous thread mentioned.

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#387507 - 03/25/08 09:23 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
Barad Offline
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From a Shotokan perspective, to me that Tensho partnered exercise looks very much like the penultimate movement in Gojushiho Sho, two ox jaw strikes in cat stance just repeated back and forth, double handed receiving and striking-what do you think?

B.

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#387508 - 03/25/08 12:26 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Barad]
Neko456 Offline
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But the idea of is not about striking or stance its blending and flowing from deflection to strike/offense, or reverse.

It is said that Kusanku or Gojushiho Sho are the two most advanced forms in your system that might be telling you something.
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#387509 - 03/25/08 04:27 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Neko456]
Shonuff Offline
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Telling us what?
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#387510 - 03/25/08 04:40 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Quote:

Telling us what?





Deadly secrets of course.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/25/08 04:43 PM)

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#387511 - 03/25/08 04:59 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
Neko456 Offline
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That the principles are valid and should be apart of advance training everything is not hard nor is it soft, it flows.

If this has to explained then we are not there yet, so "why" is still a mute point to you. What it looks like may have nothing to do with your training at this point in your life.

Do you see any use for flow training or Chi-Sau training?
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#387512 - 03/25/08 07:27 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Neko456]
Shonuff Offline
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Quote:


Deadly secrets of course.




Zack, more like deadly language skills.

Quote:

Do you see any use for flow training or Chi-Sau training?




If you have to ask then we're not there yet. Re-read the thread and you will have the answer.

Barad, I certainly see the similarity.

At first glance I would probably apply those twin strikes (are they not ippon nukite?) coupled with the cat stance as a trip and push, though I'm sure I can think of better with some effort.

I prefer to apply ippon nukite as ippon ken (pheonix-eye fist) if I'm striking. I'll only use the finger for pressing/hooking applications. The purpose of single point strikes is to hit whatever you can and create maximum effect at close range (where power is reduced due to less acceleration space), thus the kata movement is likely the loosest guide. As Neko pointed out Gojushiho was Itosu's most advanced kata, it is likely that students who reached this level were studying the vital point maps and anatomy that Funakoshi added into Karatedo Kyohan, maybe even the bubishi its self, thus learning how to make best use of their striking via pressure points etc.

The more I think about it the more I feel that you are exactly right, i.e. Gojushiho should be dissected and drilled as a southern chinese close quarter system. However I do think that it should probably be trained slightly differently to the Goju ryu in that Goju follows the design of systems like tiger and mantis and thus is structured to be very in-your-face. Hence the solid square facing Sanchin dachi.

Gojushiho shows it's signiture movements in cat stance which is just not solid enough to sustain any kind of linear attack, and which usually signifies evasive angular footwork. Also the beginning of the kata shows a number of angular attacks which I believe are the suggested entry methods (due to their occuring in front stance) as well as short power generation methods and close striking tools.

All this (plus my study of the other Shurite kata) leads me to think that rather than adhering (sticking) shuri-te kata encourage evasive angular movement and percussive striking from fast out of distance entry, kind of a half way between wing chun and boxing that sees the Karateka pouncing like a tiger on it's prey. Double handed chi-sau is less useful as it focusses on grounded footwork where the shotokan fighter should float more in close and be free to escape.

Single handed chi-sau exercises (similar to what matt showed in his vids), kakie and grinding hands drills (think the opposite to chi-sau) would be more appropriate to train the principles of Gojushiho IMO.
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#387513 - 03/25/08 10:14 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
Neko456 Offline
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Shonuff - Zack, more like deadly language skills.

Right back at ya, but what else can we do on a forum.

I agree with your analyzation of the difference in Goju-ryu and Shorin-ryu principles, purpose and perferred distance. Where we differ is that it doesn't have to be Goju or Shorin for me to see good in it. I don't judge principles by what I practice or its not in my base. I empty my cup and judge the outcome after working and training with it the judge by its own merits. Can I use it? I delight and greet new information and techniques. Like you I am proud of my base and feel its has served me well in and out of the dojo. But I know its not the only way.

I see nothing wrong with your ideas and believe you have studied the matter from the Karate side of fence well but I get the impression that if its not link into what you have been taught it has no purpose to you. No system has all the the answers and odd as it maybe there other methods that bring simple effective results.

Really shotokan kumite range is not real fight range it is inital contact range as you stated in and out. U can't control or maintain that range all the time. U do know that right? How many systems outside of Karate have you worked with or sparred outside of the tournaments?


Edited by Neko456 (03/25/08 10:23 PM)
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#387514 - 03/26/08 04:07 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Neko456]
Shonuff Offline
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Neko,

whose posts do you read????

Can you point out what I've said that gives you the impressions you seem to have of me?

Quote:

Where we differ is that it doesn't have to be Goju or Shorin for me to see good in it.




Quote:

I don't judge principles by what I practice or its not in my base.




Quote:

Like you I am proud of my base and feel its has served me well in and out of the dojo. But I know its not the only way.




Quote:

but I get the impression that if its not link into what you have been taught it has no purpose to you.




Where do you get this stuff??? Seriously please quote me the things I've written which give you these impressions as I am lost as to how you manage this.

I also cannot figure out why you keep wanting to make personal a general discussion about technique and training methods?
Especially since you haven't actually added any new info or contradicted anything I've said in the discussion so far?

At last count I have experience of around 12-14 different systems, both training and fighting in non tournament conditions. I could list them but I don't see the relevance. I'm sure you have experienced many many more, but I'm more concerned with what new information and advice you bring to the discussion as opposed to where you learned it.
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#387515 - 03/26/08 05:18 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
Barad Offline
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Shonuff,

Ippon nukite in Gojushiho Dai, ox jaw strikes in Gojushiiho Sho at the same point but the principles are the same. I agree in practice I prefer phoenix eye/ippon ken to nukite.

Neko ashi is quite weak to a direct hit but I yes useful for flowing strikes as in Gojushiho (especially Dai version) I guess...but then stances are only intermediate positions, not held for any length of time (unlike in kata) IMO.

B.

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#387516 - 03/26/08 05:21 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
Shonuff Offline
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Barad,

Something like this would be ideal.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1hNDl5apozk

Bossman, I've not seen this push hands method before, is it of your own making or is a common Taichi drill?
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#387517 - 03/26/08 05:29 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Neko456]
Barad Offline
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Neko,

Yes, receiving, blending, striking (or offense as you call it, I am not sure there is a difference except that offense is more general and might just mean invasive body positioning I suppose), this is the feeling of the movement in the Shotokan kata, slow initial hand position becoming fast striking, simultaneously sliding forward as you strike but no tension or pause in the actions. IMO the mobile cat stance is integral to the movement.

FWIW the application we practice for this has tended to be attacking the stomack points just below the nipples or just one handed to solar plexus, sealing the breath, that kind of thing...

B.

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#387518 - 03/26/08 11:16 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
Neko456 Offline
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Quote:

Neko,

whose posts do you read????

Me - YOURS.
______________________________________________

Shonuff - Can you point out what I've said that gives you the impressions you seem to have of me?

_____________________________________________________
Me - Your quote " All this (plus my study of the other Shurite kata) leads me to think that rather than adhering (sticking) shuri-te kata encourage evasive angular movement and percussive striking from fast out of distance entry, kind of a half way between wing chun and boxing that sees the Karateka pouncing like a tiger on it's prey. Double handed chi-sau is less useful as it focusses on grounded footwork where the shotokan fighter should float more in close and be free to escape."

Me - This where I formed my opinon the thread is about Chi sau like drills and you are talking about what Shotokan fighters do as if you can talk for all Shotokan sytlist or that Shotokan encompass all there is.
___________________________________________________________

Shonuff - Where do you get this stuff??? Seriously please quote me the things I've written which give you these impressions as I am lost as to how you manage this.

___________________________________________________
Me - You stated what Shotokan/Shorin does. If these elements are not apart of your training how can you know the benifit if you haven't expericene it. Just looking it may not look effective if you are closed minded or only concern with what works now for you or within Kumite range/rules. Maybe I'm reading that wrong maybe thats your way of being open minded?

_____________________________________________________
Me - Shorin has an element of stickiness to it its not all angles, strike and escapes. There is an element of adhering as in the grab and punches or kicks that it does. I know you can't hold long in Kumite but you can knock someone out holding and hitting thats one of the application of two hand sticking hands its not just what you SEE the pretty swaying motions you see in practicing Chi Sau. Yes I'm telling you something about what I experinece in Shorin.
_______________________________________________________
Shonuff- I also cannot figure out why you keep wanting to make personal a general discussion about technique and training methods?
__________________________________________________________
Me- Because these are my PERSONAL views and I'm entitled to them because thats what this forum is for discussion. I don't have to agree with you and I won't unless I feel you are right. When you make your Personal opinions I just take it as that, your personal ideas. I don't ask why? You are entitled to them. I either agree or disagree, I don't take it personal or even say you are wrong its just that I see it from a open mind. It doesn't have to be my way to be A correct way or effective way. I don't pretend to know everything. But I do have opinions and they are personal because they are mines, I won't apologize for that.

_______________________________________________________
Shonuff - Especially since you haven't actually added any new info or contradicted anything I've said in the discussion so far?

_________________________________________________________
Me - Thats a matter of opinion maybe since I don't agree with you or you don't know what Chi sau really is and I at least train the application. You do too you just expect it to look like the drill, its more direct and explosive then that.
____________________________________________________________

Shonuff - At last count I have experience of around 12-14 different systems, both training and fighting in non tournament conditions. I could list them but I don't see the relevance. I'm sure you have experienced many many more, but I'm more concerned with what new information and advice you bring to the discussion as opposed to where you learned it.




____________________________________________________________
Me - I was just asking trying to figure out why you seem so close minded to me, maybe its just me. Did you learn anything different or new working with these guys?
_____________________________________________

Brad thats one approach but Chi Sau or drills like it have many applications. As I stated above in application it doesn't look like a dance it looks like grab pull and push punch, elbow, knee, punch, head butt, shoulder butt and strike even kick. You are sticking to him swaying flowing with his responce to being hit, lettiing him fall in and out of each tools range.

Really in application you guys would say hey I do that. You can't do it long in Kumite because of the rules, unless you doing continous sparring, maybe.

Brad for some reason I like your opened minded approach better. At least you think I should have an opinion wheather you agree or disagree. Thanks for knowing I have that right. I appreciate your PERSONAL opinion also, you don't need a reason for it because its yours.


Edited by Neko456 (03/26/08 11:35 AM)
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#387519 - 03/26/08 01:21 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Neko456]
Shonuff Offline
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Quote:


______________________________________________

Shonuff - Can you point out what I've said that gives you the impressions you seem to have of me?

_____________________________________________________
Me - Your quote " All this (plus my study of the other Shurite kata) leads me to think that rather than adhering (sticking) shuri-te kata encourage evasive angular movement and percussive striking from fast out of distance entry, kind of a half way between wing chun and boxing that sees the Karateka pouncing like a tiger on it's prey. Double handed chi-sau is less useful as it focusses on grounded footwork where the shotokan fighter should float more in close and be free to escape."

Me - This where I formed my opinon the thread is about Chi sau like drills and you are talking about what Shotokan fighters do as if you can talk for all Shotokan sytlist or that Shotokan encompass all there is.



___________________________________________________________

Neko, you misunderstood. Look at the context, I am talking about MY own analysis (as in my opinion which according to you we are all entitled to) of Shuri-te kata within shotokan with specific reference to Gojushiho as it fits in with this discussion. I was not commenting on what others do, nor did I state that Shotokan encompassed all there is. In fact I've made no comment about what the broad art of Shotokan contains or lacks or what is in any other art. I only mentioned Shotokan in this context as the kata we were discussing are specific to the style, i.e. we were talking about Shotokan Gojushiho not Matsubayashi Gojushiho etc.

So you have a different view point, thats fine by me. However you seem to be calling me closed minded because I am expressing my viewpoint, after being asked for it.

What you seem to have done there is make an assumption or two. Perhaps it will be easier to see what I am (and am not) talking about if you quote my posts when replying to something you take issue with.

Quote:


Shonuff - Where do you get this stuff??? Seriously please quote me the things I've written which give you these impressions as I am lost as to how you manage this.

Neko - You stated what Shotokan/Shorin does. If these elements are not apart of your training how can you know the benifit if you haven't expericene it.




I've made no reference to my training, what makes you think these things are not a part of what I do/have done?

Quote:

Just looking it may not look effective if you are closed minded or only concern with what works now for you or within Kumite range/rules.




I last participated in rule bound kumite around 9 years ago. It was done for fun and has never played a part in my training.
This is why I asked you to quote me. I've not mentioned kumite sparring. You seem to be assuming that because I train Shotokan my training is based in tournament style fighting?

Quote:

___________________________________________________
Me - Shorin has an element of stickiness to it its not all angles, strike and escapes. There is an element of adhering as in the grab and punches or kicks that it does. I know you can't hold long in Kumite but you can knock someone out holding and hitting thats one of the application of two hand sticking hands its not just what you SEE the pretty swaying motions you see in practicing Chi Sau. Yes I'm telling you something about what I experinece in Shorin.




Well from the sound of things you know far more about kumite rules than me so I'll take your word for it. If you feel double handed Chi sau is beneficial to your Shorin training then great. I agree, it is always beneficial to know and practice. In terms of developing the principles out of the Shotokan Gojushiho kata (as I discussed above) I still think it is less useful than some of the single handed chi-sau/push hands/grinding hands drills, but each to their own.


Quote:

Shonuff- I also cannot figure out why you keep wanting to make personal a general discussion about technique and training methods?
__________________________________________________________
Me- Because these are my PERSONAL views and I'm entitled to them because thats what this forum is for discussion. I don't have to agree with you and I won't unless I feel you are right. When you make your Personal opinions I just take it as that, your personal ideas. I don't ask why? You are entitled to them. I either agree or disagree, I don't take it personal or even say you are wrong its just that I see it from a open mind. It doesn't have to be my way to be A correct way or effective way. I don't pretend to know everything. But I do have opinions and they are personal because they are mines, I won't apologize for that.





Once again you misunderstand.

If I'm in a discussion about effective punching, and someone else (especially someone I don't know and haven't trained with) makes a comment, I will discuss the comment they make and not the person asking it. I certainly won't tell them how they train or how they think.

When I asked why you are making the discussion personal I was asking why you were commenting on what I know and what I think, when I clearly have not told you about either of those things?
_______________________________________________________
Shonuff - Especially since you haven't actually added any new info or contradicted anything I've said in the discussion so far?

Quote:

_________________________________________________
Me - Thats a matter of opinion maybe since I don't agree with you or you don't know what Chi sau really is and I at least train the application. You do too you just expect it to look like the drill, its more direct and explosive then that.




So, either I don't agree with you or I don't know what chi-sau really is? Well up until this post I've agreed with you about everything you said on the topic. Does that mean I do know what chi-sau is, since as I agree. If you say I do I'll be so happy.

Neko, if I don't tell you what I "expect" you really don't know.
____________________________________________________________

Quote:


Brad for some reason I like your opened minded approach better. At least you think I should have an opinion wheather you agree or disagree. Thanks for knowing I have that right. I appreciate your PERSONAL opinion also, you don't need a reason for it because its yours.




If you'd show me the same courtesy I'd be very pleased. If I didn't think you had anything to contribute I wouldn't bother trying to clarify things.
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#387520 - 03/26/08 01:37 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

Barad,

Something like this would be ideal.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1hNDl5apozk

Bossman, I've not seen this push hands method before, is it of your own making or is a common Taichi drill?



I think
The parrying he is doing seems common to goju and is found in shotokan kata, combined with chin na.

If I am correct the parrying is also in tai chi given tai chi seems to be the root art?

I think Bossman is also a 6 th dan karate ka?

Jude




Edited by jude33 (03/26/08 01:42 PM)

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#387521 - 03/26/08 03:51 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Quote:

Quote:


______________________________________________

Shonuff - Can you point out what I've said that gives you the impressions you seem to have of me?

_____________________________________________________
Neko456 - Your quote " All this (plus my study of the other Shurite kata) leads me to think that rather than adhering (sticking) shuri-te kata encourage evasive angular movement and percussive striking from fast out of distance entry, kind of a half way between wing chun and boxing that sees the Karateka pouncing like a tiger on it's prey. Double handed chi-sau is LESS USEFUL as it focusses on grounded footwork where the SHOTOKAN FIGHTER should float more in close and be free to escape."
-----------------------------------------------------
Neko456 - This is where I formed my opinon the thread is about Chi sau like drills and you are talking about what Shotokan fighters do as if you can talk for all Shotokan sytlist or that Shotokan encompass all there is.
---------------
Neko456 - It was you that bottle necked the conversation to what Shotokan fighters do. You can do Chi Sau almost running/pushing/ pulling and striking at the guy in application.
-------------------------_________________________________________________________

Shonuff - Neko, you misunderstood. Look at the context, I am talking about MY own analysis (as in my opinion which according to you we are all entitled to) of Shuri-te kata within shotokan with specific reference to Gojushiho as it fits in with this discussion. I only mentioned Shotokan in this context as the kata we were discussing are specific to the style, i.e. we were talking about Shotokan Gojushiho not Matsubayashi Gojushiho etc.
-----------------------------------
Neko456 - You are entitle to your views you also stated that one hand grinding etc.. drill is more like what Shotokan Gojushiho train. I would just like to pointing out that one hand Chi sau is basic and two hand is more advance so where does that put Gojushiho method, if your statement is true looking at the full view of both. Maybe this is another assumption based on your statement. I think Gojushino lesson is deeper then that.
------------------------------------------

Shonuff - So you have a different view point, thats fine by me. However you seem to be calling me closed minded because I am expressing my viewpoint, after being asked for it.
What you seem to have done there is make an assumption or two. Perhaps it will be easier to see what I am (and am not) talking about if you quote my posts when replying to something you take issue with.
--------------------------------------
Neko456 - I only assumed the obvious you are a Shotokan man and thats your point of view. You are granted that. As you noticed I took quotes from your reply and still came to the same conclusion.
----------------------------------------------
Quote:


Shonuff - Where do you get this stuff??? Seriously please quote me the things I've written which give you these impressions as I am lost as to how you manage this.

Neko - You stated what Shotokan/Shorin does. If these elements are not apart of your training how can you know the benifit if you haven't expericene it.



------------------------------------------------
Shonuff - I've made no reference to my training, what makes you think these things are not a part of what I do/have done?
-------------------------------------
Neko456 - Theres no mystery to how Shotokan is trained only to what else you trained. Even if trained slightly different its still SK.

Quote:

___________________________________________________
Neko456 - Shorin has an element of stickiness to it its not all angles, strike and escapes. There is an element of adhering as in the grab and punches or kicks that it does. I know you CAN'T hold long in Kumite but you can knock someone out holding and hitting thats one of the application of two hand sticking hands its not just what you SEE the pretty swaying motions you see in practicing Chi Sau. Yes I'm telling you something about what I experinece in Shorin.



-------------------------------------
Shonuff - Well from the sound of things you know far more about kumite rules than me so I'll take your word for it. If you feel double handed Chi sau is beneficial to your Shorin training then great. I agree, it is always beneficial to know and practice. In terms of developing the principles out of the Shotokan Gojushiho kata (as I discussed above) I still think it is less useful than some of the single handed chi-sau/push hands/grinding hands drills, but each to their own.
------------------------------------------
Neko456 - If you think that the rough and tumble application of Chi Sau is tournament application then you really don't know what it is. This is street application that can be short note to sparring really contnious sparring. I feel it benificail to any training but thats my view.

------------------------------
Shonuff - When I asked why you are making the discussion personal I was asking why you were commenting on what I know and what I think, when I clearly have not told you about either of those things?
--------------------------------------------------

Neko456 - As I stated above THERE IS NO MYSTERY to how Shotokan is Trained. I maybe assuming that you are just trained in SK but even if you have added other training its still SK based.
------------------------------------------
Shonuff - Neko, if I don't tell you what I "expect" you really don't know.
---------------------------------------------
Neko456 - Really you are Shotokan you don't have to tell me
I can hear it in your reply. U ARE SHOTOKAN, believe me. We can agree to disagree or agree. We have different views and thats what makes the world go round.
____________________________________________________________

Quote:


Brad for some reason I like your opened minded approach better. At least you think I should have an opinion wheather you agree or disagree. Thanks for knowing I have that right. I appreciate your PERSONAL opinion also, you don't need a reason for it because its yours.




Shonuff - If you'd show me the same courtesy I'd be very pleased. If I didn't think you had anything to contribute I wouldn't bother trying to clarify things.





Neko456 - Seriously Shonuff, You have to give Respect to get it. In this last post You have and I return it to you. Confusing but entertaining debate.



Edited by Neko456 (03/26/08 03:58 PM)
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#387522 - 03/26/08 04:21 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Neko456]
MattJ Offline
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Good lord stop quoting!
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#387523 - 03/26/08 06:39 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: MattJ]
BrianS Offline
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Quote:

Good lord stop quoting!




Yep. I can't read the last few posts!!
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#387524 - 03/26/08 07:48 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
butterfly Offline
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Just looked at the vid, nice....but you sure that's not Donald Pleasence's bigger, chubbier clone?

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#387525 - 03/26/08 10:12 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Neko456]
Shonuff Offline
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Sorry guys, but one last quote.

Quote:

Neko456 - As I stated above THERE IS NO MYSTERY to how Shotokan is Trained. I maybe assuming that you are just trained in SK but even if you have added other training its still SK based.




Well if that doesn't seal the lid on my box I don't know what does?
Thanks for showing the respect and open mindedness you so clearly demand of others, and for letting me know my place.



P.S.
Look closer at the white flag,
and while your down there check the signature:


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#387526 - 03/26/08 10:26 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
Neko456 Offline
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That was a compliment remember Shotokan not Shoto-Can't.

Anyway continue your conversation on GojuKa's flowing hand drill. You are the OP. We are all off topic I apologize for letting you draw off, its not personal. Do you mind if I interject some thought after others reply?


Edited by Neko456 (03/26/08 10:29 PM)
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#387527 - 03/27/08 05:23 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: jude33]
Barad Offline
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Posts: 427

Jude,

I agree-that looks like some exercises I have seen in my (small) exposure to Goju. We practice a number of flow drills but they tend to alternate sides (say for overhead, round or straight attacks) rather than dealing with two sides at once.

B.

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#387528 - 03/27/08 05:31 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: jude33]
Bossman Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

Barad,

Something like this would be ideal.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1hNDl5apozk

Bossman, I've not seen this push hands method before, is it of your own making or is a common Taichi drill?



I think
The parrying he is doing seems common to goju and is found in shotokan kata, combined with chin na.

If I am correct the parrying is also in tai chi given tai chi seems to be the root art?

I think Bossman is also a 6 th dan karate ka?

Jude







Ive been in karate for 40 years and am 7th Dan and Tai Chi for 35 years, I've also trained around most other arts. The basic techniques for the pushing drills there can be found in most arts and as you can see most techniques can be run off from those drills. It's just a method of play learning.
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#387529 - 03/27/08 05:33 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: butterfly]
Bossman Offline
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Quote:

Just looked at the vid, nice....but you sure that's not Donald Pleasence's bigger, chubbier clone?




Oi! Watch it mate, Donald Pleasance is a scrawnier version of me!
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#387530 - 03/27/08 10:54 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Bossman]
Neko456 Offline
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Bossman was that before the double knee surgery? And why do you seem to prefer wedge over Chi Sau like flow drills?

It seems simpler but can you develop the merging,blending, flowing principles as well. Should one learn flow drills then go to the wedge system to practice application or can you train just your wedge and still flow?

Some Filipino/Kali systems have a BoBut(spl?) drill that practice a heavier more grinding flow drill whats your opinion of that compared say to the simple wedge & Gojuka drill? Inregard to application.
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#387531 - 03/27/08 11:22 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Neko456]
Shonuff Offline
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Neko when you say flow drill what exactly are you refering to? Do you mean something pre-set like Taira sensei's bunkai or the grappling drill that started the renzoku thread?
Or do you mean something not pre-set, and if so could you describe it?
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#387532 - 03/27/08 11:38 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Neko456]
Bossman Offline
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Quote:

Bossman was that before the double knee surgery? And why do you seem to prefer wedge over Chi Sau like flow drills?

It seems simpler but can you develop the merging,blending, flowing principles as well. Should one learn flow drills then go to the wedge system to practice application or can you train just your wedge and still flow?

Some Filipino/Kali systems have a BoBut(spl?) drill that practice a heavier more grinding flow drill whats your opinion of that compared say to the simple wedge & Gojuka drill? Inregard to application.




That was filmed just before my surgery. The wedge is the most direct way to intercept/deflect/strike, but you don't always want to immediately strike - particularly for LEO's and security personnel so the ability to turn the wedge into a ball and adhere, blend, redirect and lock or weaken the opponent first is extremely useful. In my mind I always wedge/strike but turn it into a ball/curve/spiral to deflect and weaken as part of the skill learning.

I've never practiced filipino/kali but the flow drills look very impressive and I'd guess work on similar ideas.
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#387533 - 03/27/08 11:59 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
Neko456 Offline
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I mean something that looks like the videos you put up that showed Chinese/Indo Chi Sau like drills and the basics being shown in your Gojuka post. The Tari bunkia DEMO was just an example of prepared application that shows how these principle flow from move to move and more importantly from striking to grappling and out. That its rough and tumble in application as your face fighting can be.
It kinda showed the tussling thats involved and the flow against it.

Bossman wedge system is more simplistic in application no swaying back in forth just feel and exploded. This is point that I'm trying to state is that the pretty stuff is just training get a feel. In application this is a pushing and jutting imbalancing act with heavy strikes placed in or submission moves if LEO.

Man its hard for me to be concise. The floors yours again, nice thread.
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#387534 - 03/27/08 04:35 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Neko456]
Bossman Offline
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I think you've grasped it pretty well, my other background is 30 years working in and teaching the security trade, European police self defence instructors, special services a and presidential bodyguards, so it has to be field tested and work.

At the SENI MA show in London I'm doing a seminar with one of my students Colonel Ondra Musil the Chief Self Defence Instructor for the Czech Police 6th Dan Karate and 5th Dan Aikido, I will take the grappling aspects of Grasp Sparrows Tail in Tai Chi and he will put them into 'practical' situations.
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#387535 - 03/28/08 12:32 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Bossman]
Neko456 Offline
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Tai-Chi-Chuna in LEO work today brings back times of folk lore, now to the present. Just when you thought that the LEO field was dominated by Submission wrestling, Judo/Jujitsu and Aikido. Man thats good to hear and Tai Chi's grasp the Sparrow's tail application wish I could attend.

As we all know at one the Yang style Ultimate Fist was the art of most of the China's best body guards and some of China's best fighters. How is Tai Chi's Chi Sao drill different from whats being discusses? More circular and deeper stances for sure, right?
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#387536 - 03/28/08 05:23 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Neko456]
Bossman Offline
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TBH the principles of GSP are in Judo, Aikido and grappling, Gavin improves his grappling game by practicing Tai Chi with me. In Tai Chi they are (for me) very well laid out in a good learning sequence.

Yang push hands starts with a bigger circle when the student is practicing legs, waist, circles, spirals, body connection etc and moves to very small where you 'soften' the body as you move forward to receive and use the opponents energy to deflect and return their energy in the smallest circle.

As I said Ondra is a 6th Dan Karate and 5th Dan Aikido and will be the first to say that his base skills for these arts and his LEO training came from Tai Chi.
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#387537 - 03/28/08 06:16 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

Telling us what?




I think what he is telling you and I agree is that most of the stuff on here is in the shuri/ shotokan /goju/ tai chi forms/ kata.

I see the movement for such drills and indeed compare trapping in kata/ forms . It takes someone ( in the karate world) like Bossman ( I stand corrected 7th dan) and if you cared to do some research Tiara sensie to show how to use them. I wouldnt be so quick as to dismiss the techniques shown by Tiara sensie 10th dan by the way. The guy is good.
The difference is he combines limb destruction in to his parrying/ trapping drills. They will be to fast for a few people to see them. They are in the kata though.


My studies of white crane / zan chin/ tai chi also covered
these kind of drills.

I will continue with my pure studies. They add to the physical training I do.

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#387538 - 03/28/08 08:07 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: jude33]
Bossman Offline
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You might find this interesting, a clip I made for MAP on the destructive sequence of grasp sparrows tail in push hands.

This idea put into 'spring hands' will be what I'll be covering at SENI.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6KDbeN6ZdI
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#387539 - 03/28/08 10:47 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: jude33]
Shonuff Offline
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Quote:


I think what he is telling you and I agree is that most of the stuff on here is in the shuri/ shotokan /goju/ tai chi forms/ kata.




Most of what stuff where Jude? Try and be more specific it will help people understand your posts.

Quote:

I see the movement for such drills and indeed compare trapping in kata/ forms . It takes someone ( in the karate world) like Bossman ( I stand corrected 7th dan) and if you cared to do some research Tiara sensie to show how to use them. I wouldnt be so quick as to dismiss the techniques shown by Tiara sensie 10th dan by the way. The guy is good.
The difference is he combines limb destruction in to his parrying/ trapping drills. They will be to fast for a few people to see them. They are in the kata though.




Neko you have a protege.
Jude your ability to make assumptions misread posts and then twist what you "read" to fit the assumptions is coming along nicely.
Just like your research.

By the way, I do believe you do all this research you claim, I just doubt your ability to interpret what you find. But keep plugging away, I look forward to reading your book.
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#387540 - 03/28/08 11:04 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
Gavin Offline
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Quote Bossman:

Quote:

Gavin improves his grappling game by practicing Tai Chi with me.




Since doing the Tai Chi my knowledge of structure and footwork has skyrocketed. What Steve has given to my grappling is the ability to find and create space to work where previously I couldn't find any. Steve was covering some of the GSP stuff today with me this morning putting it into different grappling scenarios and working from various holds. He also showed me some of the stuff he'll be doing at SENI...it'll be blast for all MA's regardless of style (And Ondra is a scary man too!). Just be careful when Steve says, "God we've got to work on your striking......you need to be more subtle.....obviously I won't do this into your throat, but I'll just put it into your chest instead...." be warned that this statement is followed by pain!
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#387541 - 03/28/08 12:02 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
Neko456 Offline
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Shonuff - Neko you have a protege.
Jude your ability to make assumptions misread posts and then twist what you "read" to fit the assumptions is coming along nicely. Just like your research.
--------------------------------------------
Jude33 is not a protege he is his own Man, there are several topic that we disagree on and thats fine it makes him who he is and me who I am. Unlike you I don't expect him or you to agree with everything I say or do. I expect input from your point of view.

As for specifics how detailed do you want it a drawn picture and outline chorno'd thesis. Use what you know and draw your own conclusions is what one has to do on a forum. No one else seem to have a problem filling in the gaps of what is being discussed on this topic. They either agree or disagree and the world keeps spining. Don't throw your short coming or needs for specfics on a topic as simple as this on others. Either you know or you don't know. This is not a need to know topic for elites, Its even accepted that there is a gray area if thats where you are then stand back and learn.

As for his research its his why try to make lite of his findings on an open forum. No one make lite of you needing specific on this topic.

I'm not attacking you just saying before you judge know that you also can be judged.


Edited by Neko456 (03/28/08 12:10 PM)
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#387542 - 03/28/08 12:21 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Neko456]
Shonuff Offline
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Quote:

As for his research its his why try to make lite of his findings on an open forum. No one make lite of you needing specific on this topic.




lol, you just did.
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#387543 - 03/28/08 12:42 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
Neko456 Offline
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If I did I apologize. But even if I did its just my opinion and shouldn't mean anything but that.

Again if I did I apologize. This is your thread OP I'm just trying to enjoy it without being marked.

Bossman how does GSP end up in a arrest position, I see the arm bar/break but from that position he far from down and cuffed.
I ask because I admit I don't know GSP application, I see nothing wrong with saying I don't know (Shonuff). Thats how you learn.
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#387544 - 03/28/08 01:42 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Neko456]
Shonuff Offline
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LOL
Quote:

I see nothing wrong with saying I don't know (Shonuff)




Unless it's about someone elses training or knowledge.

When someone says something I don't know I will ask, I promise. Oops, sorry I forget having Shotokan as my base means I don't understand anything beyond Ippon Kumite.

*Laughing my ass off*


Edited by Shonuff (03/28/08 01:49 PM)
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#387545 - 03/28/08 01:49 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Neko456]
Bossman Offline
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I'm not teaching it as a 'cuffing' technique, simply the principles of not allowing someone to get their balance for a push or strike, skewering their posture so they can't find power, pulling when they push and 'bouncing them down into their feet and out. The skill is in the sensitivity and timing.

It works extremely well at first friendly contact to not allow a potentially violent person get their balance, it means they have to try and find their balance to create a decent strike or grapple and being off balance also alters a persons emotional state. To be able to do this in a way that they don't realise what you're doing is quite skillful and highly effective. If they attempt to get their balance and strike you then have 4 basic ideas of how to deal with the energy.
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#387546 - 03/28/08 02:30 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
Neko456 Offline
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Quote:

LOL
Quote:

I see nothing wrong with saying I don't know (Shonuff)




Unless it's about someone elses training or knowledge.

When someone says something I don't know I will ask, I promise. Oops, sorry I forget having Shotokan as my base means I don't understand anything beyond Ippon Kumite.

*Laughing my ass off*




I apologized twice and really my sterotype is not of you but some of the past people that I know that studied the same art. I wonder if they teach that attitude as a section of training which make them brash and stuborn and close to others methods. The older they get the mellow they become and more open they train. So its not you that I jest with. Ippon Kumite don't forgot the all important Jiyu Kumite.

Bossman - So I didn't see a arm bar its controls balance or the entire body rather then taking him down and cuffing. So the purpose is lighter then what I thought I saw, it even changes his intent from about to striking to I'm almost about to fall. humm Interesting concept. See how open mindness helps, Shotocan't sometimes .


Edited by Neko456 (03/28/08 02:40 PM)
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#387547 - 03/28/08 04:24 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Neko456]
Bossman Offline
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When they push, you pull and redirect whilst blending with the push, it can naturally become an armbar, a spiraled take down, a figure 4 and/or cuff, these are potential outcomes of 'roll back' in grasp sparrows tail.
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#387548 - 03/30/08 03:02 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Bossman]
Neko456 Offline
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Just from GST pushing move I've seen it done as a expelling move I guess you can take the energy any direction you want.
This is built through Chi Sao interesting? In that I've always seen Tai-Chi Chi Sao moves as big circle moves, except some of their close palm or two finger piercing stuff.
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#387549 - 03/30/08 03:45 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Neko456]
Gavin Offline
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It only moves in big circles when you start learning it (or in my case it doesn't even move in a circle! ). The smaller the circle (more Yin) the power comes off it.
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#387550 - 03/30/08 05:06 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Neko456]
Bossman Offline
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Quote:

Just from GST pushing move I've seen it done as a expelling move I guess you can take the energy any direction you want.
This is built through Chi Sao interesting? In that I've always seen Tai-Chi Chi Sao moves as big circle moves, except some of their close palm or two finger piercing stuff.




If they can't get their feet they'll launch themselves off you by their own force, or you might 'bounce' them out of their feet and send them away, or you might absorb their push using your own body down to the feet and spring the energy back at them.

Tai Chi like any fighting art has many alternatives.
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#387551 - 03/30/08 06:56 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Bossman]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

You might find this interesting, a clip I made for MAP on the destructive sequence of grasp sparrows tail in push hands.

This idea put into 'spring hands' will be what I'll be covering at SENI.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6KDbeN6ZdI




From my studies.
At 3.39 where your re-directing the fore arm, The comparison from techiques taken from sepia kata. There is a palm heel strike/redirect to the elbow/ and a shuto to the fore-arm/grab redirect/ twist opponents body. Opponent off balance. And the person doing it now has the centre line.

The training method for both strikes/ grabs/ redirect are done extremely short and the conditioning for the strikes takes place on a hard surface..

To me go-ju hard and soft. The soft part is where your redirecting and the kind of training you use in tai chi eg listening, redirecting, balance etc.
The hard part is the conditioning and the use of
limb destruction strikes.
I think I can see the mechanics of these movements in tai chi form.

Surely at one time in the history of tai chi conditiong might have had a place? Do you think this form of training filtered down in to certain strains of karate but got forgotten?

The use of spring energy etc is something I have studied in a small way.

Its good when someone like your self comes on here and explains in detail Bossman.



The kind of knowledge( and clear explanation of )you posses is hard to come by.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/30/08 07:21 AM)

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#387552 - 03/30/08 07:18 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

Neko you have a protege.
Jude your ability to make assumptions misread posts and then twist what you "read" to fit the assumptions is coming along nicely.
Just like your research.

By the way, I do believe you do all this research you claim, I just doubt your ability to interpret what you find. But keep plugging away, I look forward to reading your book.




Shonuff,
I dont have to prove or claim anything. Stop winging and add a technical input to the thread, we can argue all day on here about who is what. Wont get anywhere. Its begining to sound like a load of old women knitting.

Knitting woman one "Ere our marjory said blah blah blah"
Knitting woman two "Never in a million years!! Gordan bennet"" never did!!

Knit one, pearl one
Knit one, pearl one


Jude

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#387553 - 03/30/08 10:21 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: jude33]
Bossman Offline
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There is extensive conditioning in tai chi, this is done through qigong, dynamic push hands, wall training, weapons training and testing in postures.

I'd say there is more conditioning in tai chi than there is in a lot of karate clubs.
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#387554 - 03/30/08 10:31 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Bossman]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

There is extensive conditioning in tai chi, this is done through qigong, dynamic push hands, wall training, weapons training and testing in postures.

I'd say there is more conditioning in tai chi than there is in a lot of karate clubs.




I should have said conditioning as in maki wari etc.

Jude

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#387555 - 03/30/08 01:44 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: jude33]
Bossman Offline
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It's a rare karateka that uses a makiwara nowadays and even rarer to find one that uses one properly. I used one for over 25 years on a daily basis and didn't have a callous in sight.

Those that use one properly are in fact training in tai chi principles. A good makiwara is an excellent piece of equipment because it's rooted at the bottom will 'spring' the energy back into the practitioner and find the weak point in his posture, for example if the shoulder is not properly aligned it will 'jump' as the returning force hits it. A good posture will mean the the returning force will travel back to the ground and return again.

In tai chi we use dynamic pushing to condition the same alignments.
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#387556 - 03/30/08 02:44 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Bossman]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

It's a rare karateka that uses a makiwara nowadays and even rarer to find one that uses one properly. I used one for over 25 years on a daily basis and didn't have a callous in sight.

Those that use one properly are in fact training in tai chi principles. A good makiwara is an excellent piece of equipment because it's rooted at the bottom will 'spring' the energy back into the practitioner and find the weak point in his posture, for example if the shoulder is not properly aligned it will 'jump' as the returning force hits it. A good posture will mean the the returning force will travel back to the ground and return again.

In tai chi we use dynamic pushing to condition the same alignments.




I will have to re- read through that one again. I use a makiwari on my hand development.

Jude

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#387557 - 03/30/08 04:18 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: jude33]
Bossman Offline
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Your hands are already fully developed, the last thing you want to do is to damage them. You will only do that if your strikes 'slip' or you hit too hard to begin with. With a good makiwara it will have a good 'spring' to it. When you hit it there will be an immediate return of energy (Newtons Laws action/reaction) back to you, any weakness in your alignment will be discovered in the feedback, if your posture and energy flow is good the energy will earth through your feet and be sent back to the makiwara. This will develop a powerful 'dig' to your strikes.

You can also leave the energy in the makiwara by removing your hand before the energy can return. This skill mans that the opponent will not be 'pushed' backwards and you will make his spine 'whip' and he will fall forwards as a result of the strike.
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#387558 - 03/31/08 05:04 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Bossman]
Barad Offline
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Bossman,

Excellent-I hit my makiwara with closed fist, palm and sometimes single knuckle fist a few times a week, have done for a couple of decades or more. Only the single knuckle fist tends to feel a bit sensitive afterwards but maybe because I do not use it on the makiwara so often. What you describe as good Tai Chi principles may be well be that but sound pretty much common to all striking arts...

B.

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#387559 - 03/31/08 06:27 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Barad]
Bossman Offline
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Quote:

Bossman,

Excellent-I hit my makiwara with closed fist, palm and sometimes single knuckle fist a few times a week, have done for a couple of decades or more. Only the single knuckle fist tends to feel a bit sensitive afterwards but maybe because I do not use it on the makiwara so often. What you describe as good Tai Chi principles may be well be that but sound pretty much common to all striking arts...

B.




Exactly - a hit is a hit.
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#387560 - 03/31/08 06:54 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Bossman]
Bossman Offline
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How do the goju practitioners here translate sink, swallow, float and spit into their kakie and makiwara training?

Also how do you see the 5 animals in Tensho or the crane snake and tiger in your movements?
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#387561 - 03/31/08 01:30 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Bossman]
Neko456 Offline
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Quote:

How do the goju practitioners here translate sink, swallow, float and spit into their kakie and makiwara training?

Also how do you see the 5 animals in Tensho or the crane snake and tiger in your movements?




---------------------------------
Breathing and striking from the hara/tan tien is a good part of what we do, controlling and building this energy is done purposeful throughout Iron shirt training and carried on through Tensho training. Commanding, Controlling, Storing and Expelling this energy is one of our prime purpose or seen as advance training but is started at 7th kyu level the start of Sanchin in our dojo.

Both for destructive purpose and strengthening, protecting internal organs and healing. Breathing is life and death is the creed.

There are some 5 animal aspects but in my training the Snake, Crane and Dragon are the element of internal energy command. As are the Snake and Crane is to Tai-Chi or Pakua.

Makiwari training can be away of feeling the hard and soft control of your strikes and body energy transfer. Some say almost a spiritual thing I've have got that deep.


Edited by Neko456 (03/31/08 01:36 PM)
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#387562 - 03/31/08 02:17 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Neko456]
Bossman Offline
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So what do you do for sink, swallow float and spit? How would you teach it?
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#387563 - 03/31/08 04:06 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Bossman]
Neko456 Offline
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First in practice we don’t teach them as Sink, Float, Swallow, and Spit. We teach them as basic principles that are built upon later. Then these exact terms are used and can be researched or discussed as they apply to what we do.

Sink is taught as push off or adjoined to the ground or earth by bend your knees, bracing yourself between the ground and your opponent, or stable stance through properly alignment of your body as if rooted. So that the bottom is braced and the top potion is relaxed and once contact is made for a second or as long as you are in contact with the opponents you send your energy into his body or internal organ using measured compression. It is a form of rooting, whipping energy and placement as seen Hsing-I or Tai-chi. The immoveable stance practice in Sanchin & other stance work are basic example of this principle.

Swallow is taught as a principle of absorbing an attack or person either by limb destruction or slight deflection and counter or by weaving through his attack so that he misses and he runs into your counter or the wall. This can be exhibit in some of the, kakie training, soft deflection, body bumps, dumps as in kata gurma/firemen carry, throws or body slams done or the Iron body or palm strikes limb destruction.


Spit is taught as of explosion either through long movements or short compression this is done either in longer thrusting, pushes and pulls or short strikes with snapping/whipping movement, this can be exhibit in some of the body bumps, dumps as in say kata gurma/fireman carry body slams done or in the sliding stance movement and Iron palm strikes delivered.

Float is taught as a principle to unbalance in defense or offense this is taught in our basic stance work, head, neck manipulation and corner of the body control blending with his movement or bumping, tilting or tipping or lifting to gain this position.

It is said that the ending mawashi ukes from Sanchin embodies these four principles.


Edited by Neko456 (03/31/08 04:15 PM)
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#387564 - 04/01/08 03:38 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Neko456]
Bossman Offline
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Thanks for that Neko, I'll give you my take on it for every movement from a tai chi perspective.

Sink - is the ability to put your bodyweight into the tendons and muscles as opposed to the joints, this means you will be rooted, won't be inert and are able to be aware of and use your bodyweight more dynamically.

Swallow - to find your feet internally ('swallow' is an excellent term for this) and send your energy there, when you do it will naturally rise and this will initiate any movement or part of a movement that you do.

Float - is the energy rising, giving you that 'floating', easy sensation as you move even though you are rooted.

Spit - to send the energy out to the opponent, this can be done anywhere off the double helix spiral running through the body in any direction at any time. As the above 3 are constantly feeding that spiral.

Sanchin is the perfect way to practice this, Tensho adds the 'floating' waist and the 'asking hand' converting touch to one of the 5 animal hands and Naihanchi builds another layer to 'spit' by categorising the different methods of power sourcing and transfer from the body.
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#387565 - 04/01/08 09:35 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Bossman]
Neko456 Offline
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From a Tai chi perspective is it proper in Tai Chi to hunch your back to creat the coiling energy or should this all be done from the hollowing of the chest to send it from feet through the arms with a straight back? Is there a proper way to do this or does both method work?

I was looking for some other Goju/Uechi/Kempo guys to weigh in! Don't leave us hanging.


Edited by Neko456 (04/01/08 09:37 AM)
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#387566 - 04/01/08 09:41 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Neko456]
harlan Offline
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I can only contribute a little bit from my observations of others. My teacher definitely does a pronounced hunch/hollowing during rigorous 'sanchin' and 'tensho' for practice...but it seems to be more of a coordination of opening the shoulder/gate?? and completion of 'emptying the breath'.

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#387567 - 04/01/08 10:05 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Bossman]
Shonuff Offline
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Bossman

very interesting posts. I've heard it said that in the end all martial arts are internal arts and I think that providing the student knows how to listen to their bodies as well as develop their fighting, it is a very true statement. I think that this is a large part of the point of kata/forms training, i,e, to allow the student to study what goes on inside of himself without the distraction of an opponent.

Much of what you mention about the 4 principles I think eventually begins to come naturally (at least to some degree) to many an MAist even though they have not the words to describe it.

I'm curious about one of the questions you asked earlier. You mentioned the 5 animals, do their representative traits correspond to the 5 elements or do they hold different meanings based around the nature of the animal?

If they correpond to the elements then I'm guessing your question was about manifestations of jin like the one's you mentioned in the push hands clip, (or am I confusing this with something else)?

How you do these 5 animals manifest in Taichi and more interestingly how do you see them manifest in the Wado ryu you teach?

Quote:


Sanchin is the perfect way to practice this, Tensho adds the 'floating' waist and the 'asking hand' converting touch to one of the 5 animal hands and Naihanchi builds another layer to 'spit' by categorising the different methods of power sourcing and transfer from the body.




I've heard of "floating waist" from my White crane training, but I've not heard of "asking hand", could you explain this?
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#387568 - 04/01/08 11:19 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Neko456]
Bossman Offline
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Quote:

From a Tai chi perspective is it proper in Tai Chi to hunch your back to creat the coiling energy or should this all be done from the hollowing of the chest to send it from feet through the arms with a straight back? Is there a proper way to do this or does both method work?





You 'open and raise the back' - it's never forced - and coil the waist or the entire body.
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#387569 - 04/01/08 11:29 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
Bossman Offline
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Quote:

Shonuff:
I'm curious about one of the questions you asked earlier. You mentioned the 5 animals, do their representative traits correspond to the 5 elements or do they hold different meanings based around the nature of the animal?

If they correpond to the elements then I'm guessing your question was about manifestations of jin like the one's you mentioned in the push hands clip, (or am I confusing this with something else)?

How you do these 5 animals manifest in Taichi and more interestingly how do you see them manifest in the Wado ryu you teach?





I was referring to the 5 animal hands in Tensho, snake, crane, tiger, leopard and dragon.

In tai chi, the same as karate we work with many animals because of the Chinese folklore, but primarily within every movement we will use the tiger, snake and crane.
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#387570 - 04/01/08 12:11 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Bossman]
Neko456 Offline
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I thought that Tensho displayed Crane, Snake & Dragon, I was not aware of any Tiger and Leapord in its training maybe Leopard because of the narrow stance and sly movements.

What about what kin eye harlan mentioned the opening and closing of the gate/chest in coiling could you explain that and what Reverse breathing vs. Budduha breaths purpose in and relation to open/closing or hollowing the chest.

How does it open so it opens downward and sideward until concave, rather than contracting inward until concave as in regular breathing?
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#387571 - 04/01/08 12:22 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Neko456]
Bossman Offline
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Actually, I gave you the order of the animals with the hands in my last post... each hand is attributable to each animal, with a bit of imagination you can work out an entire 'style' with each hand. I also forgot to say that the 'asking hand' is bridging and 'asking' for the touch which is directly transmitted to the waist to enable you to disrupt.

The softening in the chest is called 'sau hung' and is important for health. If you can't drain your energy it will stay in your head making you angry or emotional and ill. There are 5 softenings and on the fifth you will feel that point connect to your feet, as the chest softens, so the back opens. This also helps to release the waist for coiling. I wouldn't relate it to breathing, that would be a mistake IMO.

It softens and 'sinks' until it internally connects to the arches of the feet.
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#387572 - 04/01/08 04:23 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Bossman]
Neko456 Offline
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I wouldn't relate it to breathing, that would be a mistake IMO.


Ok so how far off are the principles of Sanchin and Tensho which I was taught to be deveolpment of Toma's Iron Shirt training and Tensho a compromises of Pakua and S. White Crane which in Goju breaths on each hand movement except for stepping.
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#387573 - 04/01/08 04:39 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Neko456]
jude33 Offline
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Clever stuff Neko and Bossman. Good conversation.

Jude

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#387574 - 04/01/08 04:49 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Neko456]
Bossman Offline
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Quote:

I wouldn't relate it to breathing, that would be a mistake IMO.


Ok so how far off are the principles of Sanchin and Tensho which I was taught to be deveolpment of Toma's Iron Shirt training and Tensho a compromises of Pakua and S. White Crane which in Goju breaths on each hand movement except for stepping.




Ah... didn't realise we were talking Sanchin there. We link the breathing in qigong. In Sanchin we have the 3 levels of breath, the body determines the type of breath 1st level is slightly deeper than 'normal' breath (followed by a half breath for beginners) in the second section we stomach breathe in followed by a 'back' in breath as the ribs are lifted breathing out from the back as the ribs drop and the stomach as the core muscles compress. (Of course I realise you don't actually do that but that's what it 'feels' like).

The mawashi uke is the 'restrained and 'gasping' breath still utilising the above ideas.

In Tensho we breathe naturally.

Hope that helps?
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#387575 - 04/01/08 04:50 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Bossman]
Bossman Offline
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...and back to the animals, do you use snake crane and tiger in every move?
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#387576 - 04/02/08 06:35 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Bossman]
CVV Offline
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Quote:

Thanks for that Neko, I'll give you my take on it for every movement from a tai chi perspective.

Sink - is the ability to put your bodyweight into the tendons and muscles as opposed to the joints, this means you will be rooted, won't be inert and are able to be aware of and use your bodyweight more dynamically.

Swallow - to find your feet internally ('swallow' is an excellent term for this) and send your energy there, when you do it will naturally rise and this will initiate any movement or part of a movement that you do.

Float - is the energy rising, giving you that 'floating', easy sensation as you move even though you are rooted.

Spit - to send the energy out to the opponent, this can be done anywhere off the double helix spiral running through the body in any direction at any time. As the above 3 are constantly feeding that spiral.

Sanchin is the perfect way to practice this, Tensho adds the 'floating' waist and the 'asking hand' converting touch to one of the 5 animal hands and Naihanchi builds another layer to 'spit' by categorising the different methods of power sourcing and transfer from the body.




As I was teached in Goju,

sink/float is about rooting, spit/swallow about breathing (chi, internal energy). These principles are closely related. Float-swallow, sink-spit.
Sanchin and tensho are basic training kata. Sanchinstarts from a hard perspective but already includes soft aspects. As you learn how to relax and tense wich again is related relax-float-swallow, tense-sink-spit your sanchin and karate becomes softer. The tensho starts from that perspective but tends to get harder after you can coordinate the movements with breathing/rooting/tensing better.
We also use tensho as cool down to regulate energy flow at end of the training. Every training ends with tensho.

From the Bubishi, 'Developing inner strength through the quan': When you inhale, your body becomes light. When you exhale your body becomes rooted.

Funny that you define
"Swallow - to find your feet internally"
As I remember the different kinds of breathing, one method lets chi run over the nose over the head through your back into the legs through your feet then up through the legs into the ge-tanden, kinda like finding you feet.

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#387577 - 04/02/08 11:25 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Bossman]
shoshinkan Offline
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Hi Steve,

not a trick question but I know you place alot of importance in Sanchin and Tensho kata, these arn't Wado kata so I was hoping to understand where you worked them mainly, what teacher's lineage etc etc.

I realise Nathan Sensei has worked with you a while back, and your still good friends etc etc.

Be good to see your stuff one day, I will aim to make that happen.
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#387578 - 04/02/08 12:55 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: shoshinkan]
Bossman Offline
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Hi Jim

I learned it from Chris Rowen and Nathan Johnson, but most of my knowledge comes from Kung Fu and Tai Chi sources.

That's why I'm asking and posting my views.
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#387579 - 04/02/08 01:22 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Bossman]
shoshinkan Offline
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How could I forget Chris Sensei and you are long term friends as well,

understood, as you may know I work out with one of Nathan Sensei students, and met/trained a little with Chris Sensei.

Both excellent at what they do IMO.

im guessing your sanchin and tensho are likely not to similair to the Goju that Chris Sennsei teaches in emphasis,

ie nearer what Nathan Sensei teaches (in the shape of the kata anyhow, I realise you have different thoughts on application etc etc).
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#387580 - 04/02/08 01:38 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: shoshinkan]
Bossman Offline
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My kata are now quite different from both Chris and Nathan.

You're just gonna have to visit Jim...
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#387581 - 04/02/08 01:54 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Bossman]
Neko456 Offline
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What I find with my fellow Goju Instructors the ones that have added Tai Chi or internal Kung fu to their studies have a different and more applicable method of training Chi, I'd venture to say that they train the internal aspect on a higher level.

Breathing is important to them but its done differently and more purposeful then in Goju. One fellow that trained with my Instructor and his Instructor and now versed in Tai Chi was able to help heal the woman in a elderly couple that the medical Doctors had gave two months to live.

I do a pretty good job at destroying but this healing and internal health I'm envious of most Tai Chi here is only health related most inform me I want the Yang or Chen version. Most of the Goju guys that have studied Tai Chi or rarer then that Pakua say that it opens their eyes to energies beyond of what they knew it shows the how to and when to. Most studied Tai Chi with with My Sensei's, Instructors and Chief assistance Master Hardy who has pasted away maybe 10 years ago. At the time I was too busy explorer the hands on or h2h application of dealing.

Sometimes I feel that Goju/Uechi has the path to the door but not the keys to unlock it.
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#387582 - 04/02/08 01:58 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Neko456]
harlan Offline
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Perhaps the problem isn't in the style...but in incomplete transmission?

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#387583 - 04/02/08 02:37 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: harlan]
Bossman Offline
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That's why I think it's good to talk and share.
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#387584 - 04/02/08 03:46 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Bossman]
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You might enjoy this article I wrote on the subject some time ago.... this one and another 60 articles I've written can be found here - http://www.shikon.com/Articles.htm

I love sanchin, a ‘core’ kata to many karate systems, it adds the qigong aspect, harmonising mind, breath and body. It consists of three sections gradually increasing the level of difficulty in physical co-ordination and breathing technique. In the first section you move one side at a time opening and closing one side of the body with a whole breath followed by a half breath (to prevent dizziness), in the second section you move opening and closing both sides of the body at the same time flexing the spine whilst taking deep breaths utilising the abdomen and opening and closing the chest and back; in the third section you apply the highest level of co-ordination with each side of the body moving independently of the other with the highest level of restrained and focused breathing.

All the time the body is holding the internal connections and pumping the internal energy….

“Soften guys….. soften…. You’re moving like a car with the handbrake stuck on… the tension is also limiting the amount of breath you can take in, sink the chest and open the back…”

“I thought I was…”

Sensei put his hand on John’s lumbar region, “you have to open all the back, your lower spine is seized, you need to be able to open here to ‘bow’ the entire spine and open the ming men to energise the kidneys – hold your posture but keep softening...”

John was obviously frustrated as he couldn’t do it… “It just won’t move!”

“The muscles are seized, it will take time for you make the necessary neurological connections and be able to soften and flex, but it will happen if you keep working at it.”

“Will this make a better ‘root’?”

“Yes it will.”

This made Bob pipe up. “I don’t understand this ‘root’ business Sensei, surely if we ‘root’ it will render us immobile?”

“That’s a common misconception Bob, it’s a part of a process that actually increases mobility, speed and power…”

“How can that be, surely to ‘root’ you have to be immobile?”

“What are the four ‘ideas’ in sanchin?”

“You mean to sink, float, swallow and spit?”

“That’s correct.”

“Why do we have to sink?”

“To give us our root?”

“We sink because it’s the nature of our internal energy to rise, that’s why we have to constantly push it downwards – and how do we do that?”

“By releasing the ankles, knees, hips, lower back and chest?”

“That’s right, we ‘soften up’ to allow our bodyweight to ‘sink’ into and be held by the muscles and tendons, we ‘swallow to bring our internal energy and awareness into our seiki tanden and then down into the feet, but what happens then?”

“Dunno….”

“It naturally ‘bounces’ upwards – we help that with the various ‘pumping’ actions of the body, this is all a very rapid process and allows us to ‘float’ and move with great lightness and agility, the faster and and more powerfully we can do this – the faster and easier we can move. Then what?”

We’ve sunk, swallowed and floated – so I guess we ‘spit’?”

“Exactly, with the internal connections ‘hard wired’ into the body by persistent, knowledgeable training, the energy is always there and available to be spat out to the opponent.”

“So the root is only a momentary part of the process?”

“That’s right, it’s linked to ‘sink’ and ‘swallow’ and is a part of grabbing, pulling, trapping, locking and dislocating and is immediately followed by and mixed with ‘spitting’ – but without this process, how can you be light, agile, mobile and powerful?”

“It certainly puts sanchin into a completely different light…”

“That’s because sanchin is the ‘core’ of all movement, these ideas should permeate all martial technique to make them more effective.”

“But sanchin stance is hardly a mobile stance is it?”

“It is if you do it properly, take the stance…….. okay, now pump as we discussed and lift the back heel to spiral and drive a punch…”

“Yea! I floated and spat! – That’s cool!”

“And if you had used the energy to slide the feet, you would have moved very easily.”

“At last, someone’s made sense of ‘root’ ‘float’ ‘swallow’ ‘sink’ and ‘spit’..”

“Put it into the other training in sanchin kata and you’ve got a powerful learning tool..”

“You can see why it’s the core kata in many systems.”

“Yeah in both Chinese and Japanese…. Sanchin is a good method of training the ideas but not the only way.”
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#387585 - 04/02/08 03:47 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Bossman]
Bossman Offline
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There's also links to our woma pages (free video site) on there as well with a load of video clips.
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#387586 - 04/02/08 04:26 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: harlan]
Neko456 Offline
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Quote:

Perhaps the problem isn't in the style...but in incomplete transmission?




==============
Good point but then why did Miyagi continue his studies in Tai Chi and hsing/Pakau, it seems to be the path and we should go find the keys to unlock the total benifit of what the art has to offer. Being hard headed most of my studies lead me to 5 Ancestor gung-fu but it seems too Goju like and not as subtle as Hsing/Pakua or Tai Chi.

This is an informative thread in that tells a story that was already been repeated by our lead Soko and down to the present.

Bossman interest and detailed break down of the levels Sanchin. What I find enjoyable and difficult to 1st teach is in the Tensho below waist is tight, Chest hollowed and arms at points soft and flowing. It's something that has to be felt and eventually mental willed you just can't start doing it.


Edited by Neko456 (04/02/08 04:35 PM)

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#387587 - 04/03/08 03:32 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Neko456]
Bossman Offline
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I think that's why 'chap sau' or touch correction for 'direct transmission' by an experienced Sifu is necessary.

Another consideration for the animals in every posture is to think of snake as the waist down, crane for the body and arms and tiger for the head, neck and eyes. Helps to give a general 'character' for your form.
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#387588 - 04/03/08 11:08 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Bossman]
Neko456 Offline
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I'll try to use that analogy in teaching Tensho. I'm waiting for others to reply I find this interesting I hope others do.
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#387589 - 04/13/08 01:14 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Neko456]
Bossman Offline
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I've uploaded this video of my Tai Chi class using Sanchin as a qigong - hope it helps.....

http://www.videojuicer.com/woma/channels/159/movies/show/2209.html
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#387590 - 04/14/08 12:59 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Bossman]
Neko456 Offline
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Interesting Miyagi's Sanchin ichi bon done Open hand with the Uechei shoulder hunched or opening the gate. Interesting and unique from my point view great concentration of quite breath and movement.
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#387591 - 05/09/08 10:06 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
ndj Offline
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 8
Loc: Perth, Western Australia
Quote:

Finally!

Someone seems to have remembered that Goju ryu is supposed to have soft elements.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=uzFJ2BrmYZc&feature=related





Quote:

Nenad? is that the ndj bloke someone mentioned?


Yes. One and the same. I have only just been directed to this thread. The person in the video is my brother Dan, our Academy's Chief Technical Advisor and Martial Arts researcher and historian. Check out some of his research The Way of Least Resistance


Edited by ndj (05/09/08 10:07 PM)
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#387592 - 05/09/08 10:21 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: ndj]
ndj Offline
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Loc: Perth, Western Australia
Quote:

Jude33 wrote:From my studies.

I wouldnt call quite call myself a goju ka, this is one of the reason people have been harping on about studying Okinawan karate, kakie is chi sau .and studying history.

I dont think the drill they are doing are correct.
I personaly wouldnt train with them.
And I am an absolute complete total begginer in this method.



If you are "an absolute complete total begginer"(sic) maybe you should spend less time posting negative comments about things you confess you know little about and spend more time learning and training?


Edited by ndj (05/09/08 10:24 PM)
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#387593 - 05/09/08 10:52 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: ndj]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Quote:

Jude33 wrote:From my studies.

I wouldnt call quite call myself a goju ka, this is one of the reason people have been harping on about studying Okinawan karate, kakie is chi sau .and studying history.

I dont think the drill they are doing are correct.
I personaly wouldnt train with them.
And I am an absolute complete total begginer in this method.



If you are "an absolute complete total begginer"(sic) maybe you should spend less time posting negative comments about things you confess you know little about and spend more time learning and training?




Well said, unfortunately he seems to think hiding behind the "i'm a student" thing gives him free liscense to make outlandish uninformed comments about everything under the sun. He doesn't formally study Goju at all as far as I know, his "studies" seem to consist of what he reads and/or misinterprets on forums etc.

So, I wouldn't take it personally.

Neat little article too BTW.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/09/08 11:00 PM)

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#387594 - 05/09/08 11:09 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Zach_Zinn]
ndj Offline
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Registered: 03/14/08
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Loc: Perth, Western Australia
[quoteWell said, unfortunately he seems to think hiding behind the "i'm a student" thing gives him free liscense to make outlandish uninformed comments about everything under the sun. He doesn't formally study Goju at all as far as I know, just reads alot about Sepai on forums or something.

So, I wouldn't take it personally.

Neat little article too BTW.



Thanks. In the 'old days' people used to take care about what they said/wrote until they were knowledgeable enough, respected enough and tough enough not to get a smack in the teeth from someone who took umbrage at their opinions. Now sadly, everyone can be a fearless 'keyboard warrior'.
Having said that, that sort of bad behaviour shouldn't be encouraged on a serious forum by others inaction. "Bullshido" is a perfect example of what happens when keyboard warriors are given a free reign.


Edited by ndj (05/09/08 11:11 PM)
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#387595 - 05/10/08 01:16 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Quote:

Finally!

Someone seems to have remembered that Goju ryu is supposed to have soft elements.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=uzFJ2BrmYZc&feature=related

After studying Crane kungfu and seeing how their system is arranged I have often thought that Goju ryu was meant to start with Sanchin, followed by Tensho, with everything else following on from this basis of the Hard/Soft dichotomy expressed in these forms.

However this is the first time I've seen anyone aside from Nathan Johnson make any real use of Tensho, and especially think to derive chi sau/push hands drills which would help develop the student's close quarter skills and work towards bridging the gap between how Gojuka do things and their southern chinese style counterparts.

I'd had it in mind that if I never found anything like this I would develop it myself, glad to see I don't have to.





Thank you Shonuff.

The drill in the video is (as someone noted) really basic push hands. Its purpose is to teach sensitivity in the sukui and ura te osae uke movements (specifically getting you to feel "muchimi" - heavy sticky hand - on the back of your hand and increasing your awareness of your opponent's changes in movement through hand contact).

Talk of "pressure testing" the drill is misconceived in much the same way as "pressure testing" a speedball exercise is. It is not intended to simulate combat.

Does it build hand sensitivity? I have noticed a marked improvement in using sukui uke and ura te osae uke (from mawashi uke and specifically in tensho) after performing this drill. Try it yourself, and if it doesn't you've lost no more than a few minutes.

In terms of the centre-line theory, the drill is a compromise in order to train both hands simultaneously and keep a flow going (it is just an exercise). However the individual hand movements are applied in centre-line defence/attack.

I posted the drill on the web because no-one seems to be doing similar things in karate where my instructor has cross-referenced karate with the Chinese internal arts of xingyiquan, baguazhang and taijiquan (he taught this drill to us on a gashuku in 1990 during the time he was still studying with the late Hong Yi Xiang in Taipei).

This drill is just a very small adjunct to what we do. We probably don't even do it more than a couple of times per year. It certainly doesn't typify our practice. You can't replace kata, bunkai and plain blood sweat and tears. These are the heart and soul of karate.

However the drill does illustrate our ongoing attempts to cross-reference individual techniques in Okinawan karate (goju specifically) with CMA with a view to greater understanding.

I believe a lot of knowledge has been lost in transmission geographically and historically. Am I right in my own interpretation of the meaning of certain techniques? Who knows? All I can do is pursue my own research as diligently and honestly as I can. I'm always open to persuasion and there are many ways of skinning the proverbial cat.

Jude - I'm sorry to read that you wouldn't train with us. Presumably you mean to say that the approach we take is not your preferred one, rather than that you would never visit our dojo if you were in the area. I'm going to assume the latter and if that is the case, fair enough. We all have our preferred approaches - this is normal.

Shonuff, I'm not a shotokan man and it wouldn't be my preferred base. But both Nenad and I have healthy respect and a great deal of fondness for shotokan. We have trained with shotokan practitioners (including Hirokazu Kanazawa) and will continue to do so in future years with great pleasure and with a view to learning something. Our chosen "base" style is less important/interesting than our shared direction in karate practice.

I look forward to chatting with you all in the future.
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#387596 - 05/10/08 08:11 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Shonuff Offline
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dandjurdjevic,

Thanks for the reply and for sharing your work with us all.

I think the discussions that arose on pressure testing were meant less about the specific drill, but on the developed skill (sensitivity) its self. I've encountered many who dispute the effectiveness of adhering in actual practice.
Does your school have specific exercises to enable the students to better bridge the skill and it's application?

Though I know little of it, I think Tai-chi is likely a very useful mixer when put with Goju. I see a similar ethic in their use of yeilding to void attacks: Goju through the step back into shiko dachi and tai-chi through its sinking into its very low stances (feel free to correct me though), although I see Goju as a more mobile style.

Much has been said (not here specifically) of link between crane kungfu and Goju, but having seen both I think the two arts are more like distant cousins. That said, some of the similarities that do remain imply similar concepts of application but this is not born out when the two arts are observed being put into practice. I think deeper exploration of the kind of skills and principles in the drills you shared, with an aim of re-evaluating all of the goju techniques from this close-distance contact based fighting, will yield an art with much closer ties to CMA and perhaps even a greater depth; which does not mean the art lacks any depth, but I see more hidden in the arts structure than I've ever observed or heard attributed to it.

I'm working towards similar goals with the Shotokan I learned. It has a very different basis to the crane kungfu and Goju (I think Goju is something of a bridge between Shorin and Fujian styles), but there is still a great amount of untapped potential in the style.

Good luck your development work and please keep sharing, it is fascinating stuff.

By the way, are there any UK branches of your school?
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#387597 - 05/10/08 10:13 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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We have a dojo in London run by David Zimmerman. Go to www.traditionalfightingarts.co.uk.

In terms of pressure testing sensitivity - we do it all the time in free sparring. We believe in applying our techniques in sparring - not doing standing basics on one hand and then sparring with completely unrelated "faux boxing" moves.

You're right that goju and crane are distant cousins. They certainly aren't related in a linear sense. I've spent a few years chatting with my good mate Martin Watts (of Yong Chun Baihe) about this. Uechi ryu is closer to crane, but even that is not, by any means, a descendant.

I agree that taiji is a good complement to goju - I train in the Chen Pan-Ling system under the son of the founder, Chen Yun Ching (I travelling to see him again in late June).

Interestingly Hong Yi Xiang (my first teacher's teacher) taught "softer" crane forms together with the internal arts because he felt they complemented each other in the early phases of a student's development.

Keep well and good to hear from you.

Dan
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#387598 - 05/10/08 11:09 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: dandjurdjevic]
harlan Offline
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Thank you, Dan AND Nenad, for dropping in. (I thought you were one and the same for a bit. )

I think it's really brave to be 'out there' and posting the vids, and really like what I see. Of course, I'm biased...as our Goju has been informed by cross studies of Tai Chi, Bagua, and Feeding Crane. We do similar things...although our bunkai and how we interpet what is seen as underlying principles results in a different 'look'.

Again...great stuff.

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#387599 - 05/10/08 05:46 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: harlan]
Shonuff Offline
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Harlan, that sounds like fascinating stuff! Are there any vids online of your school in action?

Dan, I completely understand where you're coming from in regards to sparring, it's nice to speak to someone with similar views. The link to your London dojo seems to be down, if you have any details of the school could you PM them to me please?
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#387600 - 05/11/08 08:15 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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I'll see if I can get Dave to contact you Shonuff.
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#387601 - 05/12/08 01:02 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: dandjurdjevic]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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For those who are interested, I've written an article relating to cross-referencing goju and CMA in my blog. See:
http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/05/karate-and-chinese-martial-arts-part-1.html
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#387602 - 05/12/08 03:21 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Shonuff Offline
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Nice article Dan,

At first when I started to see Goju ryu (after I'd trained in Crane for a few years) I thought the style had just missed the point: as though someone had watched some crane classes but never been taught.

As I studied it a little more (through observation as opposed to training) I realised that it was simply built differently, but it was clear by it's similarities to crane that it was designed for close quarters and derived from southern chinese arts.

One huge clue to both these notions is something that seems to be often ignored by practitioners and that is the square on nature of the postures. If you are square to your opponent you employ both hands equally and leave no real blind side as you would in a posture with one shoulder leading.

In crane kungfu (and wingchun and mantis and others) this occurs with the weight sat back from the opponent, giving more space to see what is coming and making it harder to be pulled into something nasty. Shotokan's kokutsudachi, though from an entirely different philosophy, is designed to give the same benefits in close-quarters with the bvious exception of the blind side (this is dealt with in other ways).

The double ude uke posture common to both crane and goju then acts as a guard/neutral position where the fingertips/knuckles become the forward barrier which encounter the opponent before the chest does. Also the chinese arts keep the hips locked square to maintain the integrity of their posture and generate upper body power with the waist.

Sanchin dachi holds the weight more forward and the twin block position too wide to gaurd the chest and the hips are the main translator of power in Goju. This baffled me at first, but after a while I realised that though designed to fight close, Goju is structured to fight using much more powerful blows than crane and compensates for it's more forward approach by using more evasive footwork to void incoming attacks or over-extend the opponent. I also think the sanchin dachi posture of goju is primarily for passing the opponents (standing) gaurd and/or attacking from angles.

I think the hip power, driving forward nature and heavy use of cat stance for evasion is actually directly indicative of Okinawan influence, i.e. Karate is said to be an amalgam of many arts, well these factors stand out to me as purely originally Okinawan.

(And yes, all of the above is conjecture and opinion, but it's mine
As always I'm happy to be corrected)!
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#387603 - 05/12/08 08:04 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
In my experience tai chi’s push hands training is as much an experience to work on your own balance and movement as it is to unbalance your opponent. Technically two perfectly balanced individuals would totally neutralize each other’s technique and find no openings to unbalance the other, or more accurately misbalance themselves.

Tai Chi’s use is to direct the opponent into falling on their own imbalance. In fact where you can direct them if you perceive the mistakes, often you will just allow the flow to continue and their mistake to grow larger with each rotation till they unbalance themselves.

Here are two interesting tai chi push hands expereiences.

Chen XiaoWang Tai Chi : Taiji Push Hand and technique
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8kx7pW_T18
Taiji Push Hands – Fu shengyuan II
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8RNgsoyJv8

Push hands is but a step beyond the solo form. Then the opposing person forms offer the values of push hands on an even larger scope. At any point either opponent might unbalance the other if a mistake is perceived. Here is a balanced presentation.

Taiji Opposing Person Form
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REVCMRUlmGo

Solely for comparison here is one of Bagua’s Opposing Person forms.

Bagua - Opposing People (Sun Zhijun Style)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqiQozw27a0&feature=related
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#387604 - 05/12/08 09:27 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Quote:

One huge clue to both these notions is something that seems to be often ignored by practitioners and that is the square on nature of the postures. If you are square to your opponent you employ both hands equally and leave no real blind side as you would in a posture with one shoulder leading.


In crane kungfu (and wingchun and mantis and others) this occurs with the weight sat back from the opponent, giving more space to see what is coming and making it harder to be pulled into something nasty...




This is something I've often discussed with Martin Watts!

Quote:

Sanchin dachi holds the weight more forward... Goju is structured to fight using much more powerful blows than crane and compensates for it's more forward approach by using more evasive footwork to void incoming attacks or over-extend the opponent... I think the hip power, driving forward nature and heavy use of cat stance for evasion is actually directly indicative of Okinawan influence, i.e. Karate is said to be an amalgam of many arts, well these factors stand out to me as purely originally Okinawan.




Again I've often quizzed Martin about taisabaki/tenshin/evasion in white crane and he seemed to indicate that the concept was either absent or very differently expressed.

Thank you Shonuff for your insightful comments. I was particularly struck by the parts I have quoted above, although I completely agree with the rest too.

A very thorough and thought-provoking analysis.
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#387605 - 05/13/08 07:00 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: dandjurdjevic]
harlan Offline
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'Square on' doesn't seem like Goju to me? When is one 'square on'...except in a temporary place?

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#387606 - 05/13/08 07:53 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: harlan]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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It's 'largely' square on - ie. you might lead with one arm, but both are still in play. Other arts (eg. taekwondo) adopt a side-on fighting posture by comparison.
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#387607 - 05/13/08 01:19 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: dandjurdjevic]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:




Jude - I'm sorry to read that you wouldn't train with us. Presumably you mean to say that the approach we take is not your preferred one, rather than that you would never visit our dojo if you were in the area. I'm going to assume the latter and if that is the case, fair enough. We all have our preferred approaches - this is normal.





Hi.
Its not realy the direction I am taking. Each person is an individual and the direction I am going isnt realy what you guys do.

Karate to me is nuts and bolts each person taking and using what works best for them. I believe in days gone by masters would allocate certain katas to different people depending on their ability and physical build.

Either way good luck with what your doing.

Jude

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#387608 - 05/13/08 04:22 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: harlan]
medulanet Offline
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I don't know about goju, but being square to your opponent is a Big part of shorin ryu. Its just like what has been said, having the option of attacking with all four limbs without having to turn first rather than just two. The key is attacking so that your opponent cannot utilize all of his weapons, but you still have full use of your own.
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#387609 - 05/13/08 04:28 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: medulanet]
harlan Offline
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I don't know about shorin, but I'm told being square is very 'shorin'. And it's a no-no for us.

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#387610 - 05/13/08 05:08 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: harlan]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Quote:

I don't know about shorin, but I'm told being square is very 'shorin'. And it's a no-no for us.




Huh...how would you interpret a sanchin-kamae type posture as anything other than "squared" to your opponent? Even when closing them off it seems to me Goju adopts a pretty square posture...maybe something else is meant by square here?

You rarely see a shoulder-forward posture in Goju kata or applications, at least in my experience.

My teacher has trained under Shorinji Ryu and Okinawan Kempo stylists, even though he does Goju. I honestly find most of the "well this style is waaay different because it does this" stuff to be very questionable. Obviously there are differences, but the idea that styles are somehow diametrically opposed seems odd to me.

Like it's said, there's only 2 kinds of Karate.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/13/08 05:33 PM)

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#387611 - 05/13/08 05:19 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Neko456 Offline
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It just makes sense that after you get in close that you turn toward your opponent so you can strike, grab grapple/throw/sweep/takedown, rip, tear and smash alternately with all four limbs, head and shoulders.

It makes sense that the mid range/distance stance would not do as well as a close range/distance stance, because of the above statement.


Edited by Neko456 (05/13/08 05:20 PM)
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#387612 - 05/13/08 06:17 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
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Quote:

Like it's said, there's only 2 kinds of Karate.




Definitely, there is bad karate and good karate.
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#387613 - 05/13/08 07:00 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
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I think the term 'square' on has different meanings to us, and thats difficult to describe in words.

However our shorin certainly suggests that our hips take a natural position in relation to our feet, and that causes squareness or indeed slanting.

The angling/positioning in relation to our opponent is what is more significant in my mind and this means we can be relativly square, but not in relation to the opponent, if that makes any sense.......

certainly the shorin ryu I have studied does not advocate the use of say Naihanchi Dachi or indeed Shiko Dachi side on as described in the previous post - ie side stance kamae,

Theres always angle in these positions, or indeed we have placed ourselves to the side of the opponent and are facing them, square on ish, as requried.
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#387614 - 05/13/08 08:10 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: harlan]
Shonuff Offline
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Harlan, as I said it is often overlooked. Ignore what you are told about the art for a moment and look at the kata of Goju ryu. If you can't see the prevalence of square postures (lack of a leading shoulder) I'll be very surprised.

Remember I've only had a few Goju lessons and learned only one Goju kata. My analysis is based on observation of the Goju ryu forms and my experience of southern chinese systems (white crane and a little wing chun plus some small knowledge of others).

I fully recognise that forms do not have to be the entirety of a system or even truly representative of how a style is applied. However that forms do hold the truth of a system is my personal belief and it is how I approach analysis of karate and any forms based art.

Looking at Goju I see a system that moves in close to hit people (as evidenced by the heavy presence of advancing sanchin dachi techniques), but which doesn't stay in and press the opponent with striking (relatively few continuous striking sequences in goju kata). Instead it takes control with a joint manipulation (frequent standing "stacked hands" movements) or it instead accepts the opponents balance like a gift and pulls them into a strike (recurring theme of stepping back into shiko dachi with some form of strike). When pressed the Goju system uses evasion to avoid powerful counter attacks and either over extends the attack or attacks from another angle (heavy use of cat stance and retreating blocks, many kata have angular embusen and side stepping).

White crane is very different from this, and a million miles from what I see in the shorin derivatives.

Incidentally I was told that the teacher whose classes I've been to feels that the essence of Goju ryu is expressed in the Geksai forms (and possibly the first main kata which I think is saifa???), after which the rest is just skill building frills. Does anyone have any thoughts on this idea?

Personally I'm not sure but I'd have to do a much deeper study of Goju to have an opinion. One thing that is clear to me though, is that Goju is a complete and closed system in that all its parts (kata) serve a purpose and are part of the greater whole.

Shotokan, when analysed through it's kata, is less of a style and more a library of several systems, each in tact, preserved almost perfectly. But like classic race cars these systems were built to be used, but the powers that be in Shotokan have them sat in show rooms doing nothing but looking pretty.

The style that is Shotokan as taught by the JKA and others, is effectively Heian Karate (more hiean shodan than anything else). They place only a spiritual emphasis on kata while endlessly drilling the minute of Nakayama's technical vision. They should probably rename it Nakayamakan as they seem to have ignored just about every word that Shoto ever wrote. That said, simple and powerful = effective, at least in body if not in mind.

Modern Shotokan is in my view, at once a magnificent culmination of all the different katas' core principles (maximized acceleration and destructive power while focusing on evasive movement to keep as safe as possible), while also being an empty vessel devoid of the rare and potent wine it was designed to hold.

Boy can I ramble on or what!
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#387615 - 05/13/08 08:28 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Quote:


Incidentally I was told that the teacher whose classes I've been to feels that the essence of Goju ryu is expressed in the Geksai forms (and possibly the first main kata which I think is saifa???), after which the rest is just skill building frills. Does anyone have any thoughts on this idea?





These are just my own thoughts as a Goju practitioner, take 'em or leave 'em.

Gekisai is actually alot more linear than pretty much every other kata, and (not that this matters neccessarily) it is not a koryu kata. Honestly gekisai has always struck me as being more like shorin ryu than any other kata.

Saifa is fairly unique in terms of application, there are a couple of things that aren't repeated in other kata.

Personally to me Seisan embodies the framework of Goju of any kata, but this is just subjective opinion, as it is one of my personal favorites.

While there are a ton of repeated sequences and techniques in Goju kata, there are also huge differences, if you compare Sepai and Seisan for example they seem to employ totally different strategies.

however, if you compare Seisan and Sanseiryu, they share many of the same techniques and they seem more similar and "hard" for lack of a better word.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/13/08 08:29 PM)

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#387616 - 05/13/08 09:02 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
student_of_life Offline
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"Modern Shotokan is in my view, at once a magnificent culmination of all the different katas' core principles (maximized acceleration and destructive power while focusing on evasive movement to keep as safe as possible), while also being an empty vessel devoid of the rare and potent wine it was designed to hold."

i pratice a system of shotokan that fits this build. kata is praticed as a way of moving meditation more or less, and alot of the application i've seen demonstrated for kata wold embarras me to show to some of you guys. some of it is nice, but for the most part not so much.

my "technique" has gotten sloppy since i started working on the heavy bag alot and started sparring more. so the people at my dojo largely make a choice, learn this skill or don't. this skill is called "budo" and its combat like, but largely just as usefull as knitting.

"Shotokan, when analysed through it's kata, is less of a style and more a library of several systems, each in tact, preserved almost perfectly. But like classic race cars these systems were built to be used, but the powers that be in Shotokan have them sat in show rooms doing nothing but looking pretty."

yeah, i agree. i'm at a rank now and im content to stay where i am until i understand what i've been tought much more completly. i've "learned" alot of kata, but like you said each kata is a study in and of it's self. kata is learned to make a snappy preformance for the grading or competetion you need to do it for, and unless i study on my own, thats it.

"The style that is Shotokan as taught by the JKA and others, is effectively Heian Karate (more hiean shodan than anything else). They place only a spiritual emphasis on kata while endlessly drilling the minute of Nakayama's technical vision. They should probably rename it Nakayamakan as they seem to have ignored just about every word that Shoto ever wrote. That said, simple and powerful = effective, at least in body if not in mind."

yeah, i agree. the leader of my style of shotokan is Nishiyama sensei, and his technique has changed a bit from the older jka days, but the idea is the same. what they do, thay are damn good at, for example im positive that my instrctor knows what my body is going to do before i do when we spar.

i just fininshed reading karate do - my way of life by funikoshi and i really do agree that shoto's house is nothing like what it was intended to be. i don't like it that there are a few names held up on peoples shoulders like gods and nothing is supposed to change unless sensei says. maybe i have a problem with authiorty, but my heavy bag tells me i can throw some decent hands, my karate teachers tell me i need control.

the problem with being yourself in a japanese budo is, you can't. or, you can as long as you dance to the right tune.

i digress.
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#387617 - 05/13/08 09:46 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Zach_Zinn]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Quote:

While there are a ton of repeated sequences and techniques in Goju kata, there are also huge differences, if you compare Sepai and Seisan for example they seem to employ totally different strategies.

however, if you compare Seisan and Sanseiryu, they share many of the same techniques and they seem more similar and "hard" for lack of a better word.





There might just be a very good (historical) reason for this. Consider the arguments raised by Mario McKenna, Joe Swift et al (as I have summarised in my blog: http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/05/origins-of-goju-kata.html
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#387618 - 05/13/08 09:58 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: dandjurdjevic]
harlan Offline
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In regards to the McKenna article, I read it when it came out. It's been a long time since I had any college statistics...but I'm not comfortable with the analysis. Can't put my finger on it...but the assumptions, type of analysis (cluster), etc. I'm aware that anything published usually has an underlying POV that is conveniently supported by statistics. Not that I'm suggesting there is one here...just that I'd like to see the article really analyzed from a statistical viewpoint (ideally someone with a solid grasp of Goju as well).

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#387619 - 05/13/08 10:55 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: harlan]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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I thought I gave the technical analysis a good go in my blog...

Personally I'm fairly sure that the traditional history is at odds with the architecture of the kata and the evidence of Kyoda and the Tou'on Ryu tradition.

I've not yet posted Part 2 of my article which goes into greater detail (I'm putting some finshing touches).
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#387620 - 05/13/08 11:43 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: jude33]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Quote:

Karate to me is nuts and bolts each person taking and using what works best for them. I believe in days gone by masters would allocate certain katas to different people depending on their ability and physical build.




I not sure what you mean by "nuts and bolts thing" Jude and how this precludes using a push hands drill.

However I certainly agree with your comment that different kata suit different people. We employ this philosophy to the extent that we no longer have a strict heirarchy of goju kata after shisochin (ie. the student can choose a kata that best suits him or her at the black belt levels).

Otherwise, thanks for your best wishes and I extend the same to you.
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#387621 - 05/14/08 12:38 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Ed_Morris Offline
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The flaw of the analysis is in the selection of data points. why choose to compare Goju kata by it's kicks? is Goju suddenly a kicking art? and why not add in the models for To'on kata? that would be interesting to see how statistically far away they are from the "core-4" wouldn't it?

however, even when I did my own analysis by added other factors in for data points - I got a similar answer to what the article showed. so I more or less agree with the findings - I just didn't agree with the data mining. and point selection
In any event, couple those findings with the dates Miyagi and Kiyoda studied with K. Higaonna, and the theory does make sense. again, not just because of statistical models that tell us so without running the numbers ourselves, but the other supporting evidence as well.


that aside, figuring out the entimology of kata get's one where, exactly? get's you closer to romanticizing about some idea of 'pureness'? Great. but can you respond to an attack using an idea?

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#387622 - 05/14/08 01:20 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Ed_Morris]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Quote:

that aside, figuring out the entimology of kata get's one where, exactly? get's you closer to romanticizing about some idea of 'pureness'? Great. but can you respond to an attack using an idea?





Quite right Ed - historical analysis is often irrelevant to effectiveness, which is why I wonder why many take this "new" theory as an insult. It doesn't affect the usefulness of the kata. It is largely just a debate among history enthusiasts with no technical ramifications.

With one possible exception:

Historical research can be relevant to cross-referencing goju kata with Chinese equivalents (as I've noted in my blog). You asked once whether Chinese arts have influenced people's goju in a specific technical sense: I suspect that a greater understanding of origins of particular kata might lead one to investigate further the closest Chinese "relatives". This might, in turn, lead to technical insights.

A decision that, say, that shisochin is not from monk fist or white crane like some of the other goju kata, but is instead descended from southern preying mantis might lead to modifications or at least a different emphasis or application of shisochin.

So the idea might just change the way you train to respond to an attack... Certainly my linking tensho with specific Chinese techniques led me to practice the drill that sparked this thread (and changed how I see/apply tensho).

Whether I am right or wrong is another matter...
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#387623 - 05/14/08 02:16 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Ed_Morris Offline
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good points, but this particular analysis is to try and illustrate that there are 'core' Naha-te kata...and that other Goju kata were added from a different source other than K. Higaonna. and I agree with that conclusion - but not from a numerical method with questionable data mining.

I don't think there is any Okinawan style that has a pure curriculum. Even To'on ryu has it's own other kata added from sources other than K. Higaonna. It seems the way was to add in what your influence and sensabilities are, not a dictated and unchanging curriculum to be passed on exactly....passing on an exact curriculum is a way of style-branding, sortof like a copyright for commercial protection - it's why Karate is sectioned into a geometric progression of 'styles' - when all it needs is one: no style...or 'your style'.

that said, I think a much more useful analysis would be to compare their application relationships, not their statistical averages of generic punches and kicks categories.

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#387624 - 05/14/08 05:08 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Ed_Morris]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Quote:

good points, but this particular analysis is to try and illustrate that there are 'core' Naha-te kata...and that other Goju kata were added from a different source other than K. Higaonna.




And if they weren't added from K Higaonna, where did Miyagi get them? If he borrowed Chinese techniques circa 1920/30 mainland China this would mean examining very different Chinese techinques in "cross-referencing" than any extant "equivalent" to Higaonna's kata (if these even from China...

Quote:

I agree with that conclusion - but not from a numerical method with questionable data mining.




My conclusion exactly.

Quote:

I don't think there is any Okinawan style that has a pure curriculum. Even To'on ryu has it's own other kata added from sources other than K. Higaonna.




Yet tradition is so venerated in the far East that there is heavy pressure for maintaining the appearance of an "unchanging" curriculum passed down from antiquity...

Quote:

It seems the way was to add in what your influence and sensabilities are, not a dictated and unchanging curriculum to be passed on exactly....passing on an exact curriculum is a way of style-branding, sortof like a copyright for commercial protection - it's why Karate is sectioned into a geometric progression of 'styles' - when all it needs is one: no style...or 'your style'.




Very well put.

Quote:

that said, I think a much more useful analysis would be to compare their application relationships, not their statistical averages of generic punches and kicks categories.





For historical purposes I think it is useful to compare structural elements, such as right side bias given that these are remarkably consistent in the 2 "clusters". The technical variation/overlap between kata in the same cluster is also relevant. I agree that you don't get this just by counting kicks...
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#387625 - 05/14/08 07:02 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: dandjurdjevic]
CVV Offline
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Regarding the 4 kata Higashiaonna only thaught.

I believe that Higashiaonna knew a lot more than just those 4 kata. He is referred to as the resurector of the Naha-te tradition. Miyagi describes in his Gaisetsu that Goju-ryu descended from a South-Chinese style that was imported in 1828. As much as Kiyoda crosstrained why would Miyagi not have crosstrained with other masters ??? Even by request of Higashiaonna. Miyagi supported Higashiaonna after his wife died and trained daily under his guidance, he even quit school and had more time to train.

Most of the claims regarding Higashiaonna only teaching the 4 core kata come from high-school students around 1901-1905,
when he and Itosu teached at the high-schools.
How many kata can you learn in 4 years, certainly within the tradition not to advance untill a certain level was achieved?

Motobu describes in his second book that seiunchin was a popular kata already in the time of the old Ryukyu kingdom, so before 1879.

In 'Timeline of Karate History' by Hokama Tetsuhiro, the first recording (film) of karate kata was mentioned in 1917, showing portions of tensho and kururunfa kata. If Higashiaonna did not teach Miyagi, he must have known about it. The China trip of 1915 was a research and acknoldgement trip in view of what he already knew. The time was to short to acquire and entire new curriculum.

I believe that the Goju curriculum is baseed on the Naha-te tradition and if Higashiaonna did not teach him the entire curriculum, he must have guided Miyagi to the sources of the curriculum.

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#387626 - 05/14/08 07:28 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: CVV]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Very interesting stuff CVV!

I haven't read Motobu's second book (what is it's title?). Clearly this is important information.

Is the 1917 film referred to by Hokama Tetsuhiro still in existence? I'd love to see it.

Sorry - I didn't mean to divert the thread by raising the history stuff. At least we're still talking about tensho in a roundabout way.
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#387627 - 05/14/08 09:54 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: CVV]
Neko456 Offline
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CVV wrote - I believe that Higashiaonna knew a lot more than just those 4 kata. He is referred to as the resurector of the Naha-te tradition. Miyagi describes in his Gaisetsu that Goju-ryu descended from a South-Chinese style that was imported in 1828. As much as Kiyoda crosstrained why would Miyagi not have crosstrained with other masters ??? Even by request of Higashiaonna. Miyagi supported Higashiaonna after his wife died and trained daily under his guidance, he even quit school and had more time to train.

Most of the claims regarding Higashiaonna only teaching the 4 core kata come from high-school students around 1901-1905,
when he and Itosu teached at the high-schools.
++

It is stated by some Goju dojos that Miyagi learned at least 2-3 other Katas from Higashiaonna while he stayed with him after Kiyoda left the dojo. What can be stated that in Toon-ryu Kiyoda's other Katas and weapons have a known origin to the other 2 or 3 teachers that he cross trained with. His Katas also look like they come from another close system. There is no doubt that Miyagi crosstrained too, but I believe he brought the principles of Hsing I/Pakua and Tai chi over into his system rather there forms.

Miyagi core Katas look and feel like they are one system with exception of the kihon forms/Gekisai 1&2 which still have a close fighting emphasis and in Shorei-kan Goju the extra kata added by Toguchi with dbl guard movement early on, backward stepping, slanting at angles movement open the door to the more advance forms and follow the flow of system.

It's believed that Itsou took Pasai, Kushanku broke it down into smaller more basic part to create Pians 1-5. This is what Toguchi did to create his basic forms though I personally think he went over board with the Tondigo series.

Don't want to shift away from the core topic but I believe that Shotokan is a calouge of various systems but they stress long strong movement and that don't cover the range of original Shorin/Shito, but do barely touch upon them. Not that it isn't a good strong system but maybe it tries to do too much with less IMHO.


Edited by Neko456 (05/14/08 10:00 AM)
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#387628 - 05/14/08 10:21 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: dandjurdjevic]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Actually I've just realised: the footage Hokama Tetsuhiro must be referring to is the documentary "Ryukyuan Things" dating from about 1940 and shot by Dr Muneyoshi Yanagi (1889-1961). It features Miyagi's top student Jin'an Shinzato performing a portion of tensho and kururunfa.

Jim Prouty has made it available on Youtube here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU3SX2ZfTUA

As to Motobu's book, I think you're referring to "Okinawa Kempo" published in 1926 where he writes:

Quote:

Changes in the different styles are very complicated to trace. Throughout the history of Karate the demands for changes by society and the lifestyles of the people and even geographical differences caused each school to choose its own course to become popular or unpopular.

Among those styles or katas which have been used in Ryu Kyu from ancient days are:
Sanchin, Jo-Ju-Shi-Ho, Seisan, Seiunchin , Ippakku-Re-Hachi, Naihanchi (Ichidan, Nidan, Sandan), Passai, Chinto, Chinte, (bamboo-yari spear style), Wanshu, Rohai and Kusanku.
And especially the three styles Nai-Hanchi, Passai (great and small), and Kusanku which are very widely known to many islanders.

As I have mentioned, Ryu Kyu Kempo-Karate originally came from China. Sanchin, Jo-Ju-Shi-Ho, Seisan and Seiunchin have been used there for many centuries.




I don't think the footage of Shinzato assists the debate about the origins of the "cluster M" kata. It merely confirms that Miyagi taught those forms just before the war.

The Motobu reference to seiunchin, given the date of publication, is fascinating. However, can we be certain it was the same form? As far as I know, aside from ryuei ryu no other style teaches seiyunchin. And even their version is so close to goju's as to suggest "recent" acquisition - possibly from Miyagi to Kenko Nakaima (they were well known to each other). Note that no other "cluster M" form is mentioned by Motobu.

I personally believe seiyunchin is likely a derivative or modification of a form taught by Seisho Aragaki, but this is just speculation. Higaonna studied under Aragaki but didn't teach many of Aragaki's forms, including Unsu, Sochin and Niseishi.

I certainly don't think Higaonna taught seiyunchin in his curriculum, but he might well have known a "version" of this form...

Aragaki certainly knew a version of sanchin and seisan (seisan seems to be an ancient form, judging by its widespread nature in Okinawa predating Kanryo Higaonna's trip to China). I think the "cluster H" kata were adapatations of Aragaki's. I somehow doubt Higaonna taught even one Ryu Ryu Ko form (going by Pat McCarthy's research, the 5 or so forms taught by Ryu Ryu Ko were completely different to those in "cluster H")...


Edited by dandjurdjevic (05/14/08 10:28 AM)
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#387629 - 05/14/08 10:29 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Neko456 Offline
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Aragaki certainly knew a version of sanchin and seisan (seisan seems to be an ancient form, judging by its widespread nature in Okinawa predating Kanryo Higaonna's trip to China).


Seisan is taught and performed differently in Shuri-te then Naha-te now it appears the principle maybe the same but the overall techniques taught are different of course Naha-te Seisan teaches techniques stressing closer infighting with lower kicks.

As for Higashionna NOT teaching Ryu Ryu Ku forms its also suggested that Hagashionna may have studied under the head masters under study who was trained in various Gung-fu arts as well SWC, so he took principles and like forms. When I look at 5 ancestor and SWC forms I see Higashionna simplifying them to what Okinawans would like and more easiler understand.

As you have stated I see a closer connection between Naha-te and CMA. Then Shorin to Shaolin forms though its stated that Tekki and Pasai are original Chinese forms I see no likeness in the basic Shaolin Kuens though there are so many who knows.


Edited by Neko456 (05/14/08 10:52 AM)

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#387630 - 05/14/08 11:24 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Neko456]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Hmmm

Some good points Neko.

Have a look at my blog entry on seisan and tell me what you think of my conclusions (whether you agree or disagree!): http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/04/seisan-universal-kata.html
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#387631 - 05/14/08 01:10 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Neko456 Offline
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Interesting compiled study of Seisan from various systems. There is great simlarity in the Naha-te systems and CMA and a likiness in the Shorin system though it seems to stress longer range application and cross stepping/covering distance foot work as Shorin is known for.

One of the version of Seisan that I was taught looked more like the Ryei ryu form then Goju-ryu in the middle. I found that intriuging how close and different even the Naha-Te forms are. Great blog.

I also found the Seiunchin origin spectulation interesting, any information to confirm this. Some say it came from the 5 ancestoral Tiger form others say from the collaborated studies of Higashionna.


Edited by Neko456 (05/14/08 01:11 PM)
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#387632 - 05/15/08 01:50 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: dandjurdjevic]
CVV Offline
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Quote:

Actually I've just realised: the footage Hokama Tetsuhiro must be referring to is the documentary "Ryukyuan Things" dating from about 1940 and shot by Dr Muneyoshi Yanagi (1889-1961). It features Miyagi's top student Jin'an Shinzato performing a portion of tensho and kururunfa.

Jim Prouty has made it available on Youtube here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU3SX2ZfTUA

As to Motobu's book, I think you're referring to "Okinawa Kempo" published in 1926 where he writes:

Quote:

Changes in the different styles are very complicated to trace. Throughout the history of Karate the demands for changes by society and the lifestyles of the people and even geographical differences caused each school to choose its own course to become popular or unpopular.

Among those styles or katas which have been used in Ryu Kyu from ancient days are:
Sanchin, Jo-Ju-Shi-Ho, Seisan, Seiunchin , Ippakku-Re-Hachi, Naihanchi (Ichidan, Nidan, Sandan), Passai, Chinto, Chinte, (bamboo-yari spear style), Wanshu, Rohai and Kusanku.
And especially the three styles Nai-Hanchi, Passai (great and small), and Kusanku which are very widely known to many islanders.

As I have mentioned, Ryu Kyu Kempo-Karate originally came from China. Sanchin, Jo-Ju-Shi-Ho, Seisan and Seiunchin have been used there for many centuries.




I don't think the footage of Shinzato assists the debate about the origins of the "cluster M" kata. It merely confirms that Miyagi taught those forms just before the war.

The Motobu reference to seiunchin, given the date of publication, is fascinating. However, can we be certain it was the same form? As far as I know, aside from ryuei ryu no other style teaches seiyunchin. And even their version is so close to goju's as to suggest "recent" acquisition - possibly from Miyagi to Kenko Nakaima (they were well known to each other). Note that no other "cluster M" form is mentioned by Motobu.

I personally believe seiyunchin is likely a derivative or modification of a form taught by Seisho Aragaki, but this is just speculation. Higaonna studied under Aragaki but didn't teach many of Aragaki's forms, including Unsu, Sochin and Niseishi.

I certainly don't think Higaonna taught seiyunchin in his curriculum, but he might well have known a "version" of this form...

Aragaki certainly knew a version of sanchin and seisan (seisan seems to be an ancient form, judging by its widespread nature in Okinawa predating Kanryo Higaonna's trip to China). I think the "cluster H" kata were adapatations of Aragaki's. I somehow doubt Higaonna taught even one Ryu Ryu Ko form (going by Pat McCarthy's research, the 5 or so forms taught by Ryu Ryu Ko were completely different to those in "cluster H")...




Your Choki Motobu reference is correct.

Your Hokama Tetsuhiro reference not. He writes :
1918
....
The famous Itoman karate expert Machiya Buntoku (Kinjo Matsu) was filmed. Also on the film is a demonstration of Naha-te Kururunfa and Tensho kata. The performers include Kyoda Juhatsu (age 30) Jinan Shinzato (age 17) and 5-6 others. A group demonstration of about 50 people including Gusukuma Koki or Tahara Taizo or Nakamoto Seibun performs Seienchin kata.This is probably the oldest karate film on Okinawa. (a copy is preserved at the Okinawa Karate Museum).

Tetsuhiro Hokama is the owner of this karate museum.
I got the year wrong (1918 not 1917) but I still believe that the bulk of kata from Goju-ryu were available before Higasiaonna traveled to China.
One of the Norisato's was part of the Kenkyu-kai around 1920ies. So he could have gotten Naha-te from that source.
There is a sesan version done by Mataysohi on youtube wich looks more Chinese than the goju-version.

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#387633 - 05/15/08 02:52 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: CVV]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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That's quite a revelation. I have been under the impression that the only film footage of pre-WWII goju-ryu/naha-te was the 1940 film I referred to. Even that has caused quite a stir in karate circles:

See this file, for example:
http://www.mclink.it/personal/MC6954/_private/pdffiles/goju_video.pdf.

Coincidentally that film features tensho and kururnfa. It is thought by some (including, it seems, Tetsuhiro Hokama) to feature Juhatsu Kyoda, but it is almost certainly Jin'an Shinzato (going by age and photographic comparison - see my own comparison at: http://martialartsfriends.com/user/blogs...in-an-shinzato/).

It seems that Kyoda's students (eg. Kanazaki) maintain that Kyoda did not practice (or even know?) any of the cluster M kata.

I'd love to get to the bottom of this...

Is there any way to view the footage from 1918, I wonder (do they do screenings at the museum, for instance)?
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#387634 - 05/15/08 08:20 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Neko456]
Barad Offline
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FWIW we practice Aragaki Seisan I think passed on from Pat McCarthy. We also continue to practice Hangetsu (Shotokan version Seisan). The Aragaki version is recognisably the same kata in origin but the loose/mobile feel of the movements compared to the Shorin and Goju versions I have seen makes it quite different. It also uses mawashi uke instead of uchi uke which also seems to flow better. Good applications too.

B.

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#387635 - 05/15/08 08:29 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Barad]
harlan Offline
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So Dan, and others that look to other 'systems' to inform their main style...a question.

If you 'take' from other systems, such as Mr. McCarthy's, do you still consider what you are doing 'traditional'? For Dan...do you still consider your Goju to be 'traditional Goju'? Or, do you consider your system to be 'missing' something that you have added in to from non-Goju? And is it still Goju if borrowing from other systems?

Do you tell your students...'this is how I learned it (show them) and this is what I'm doing (show them) and why'.

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#387636 - 05/15/08 10:19 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: harlan]
Barad Offline
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Harlan,

I train under a group called Kissaki that focuses on what is intended to be realistic kata application of Shotokan/Shorin kata and the use of movement/strategy, ranges and techniques not much found in Shotokan, albeit most members were Shotokan or Wado people previously. Arguably this is more traditional (in looking to the use of karate before much of it became very commercial and tournament focused) than post-1940's style, sports-focused karate that might still practice kata for appearance and calisthenics but not much else. Or it might be seen as wholly non-traditional and concerned with modern threats.

When I was younger I was keen to practice a "traditional" art (whatever that is depending on perspective I suppose). However nowadays I am more interested in practicality than arguing history or tradition, seeing as I am English and living in London and not making any pretence to be aspiring to live like an Okinawan or Japanese person of the past or present. I also came to the conclusion that many of the most self-publicising "traditional" Japanese karate organisations (for Shotokan anyway) did not have much of a clue about the meaning of the kata beyond superficiality and actually for all the lip service paid to kata, they did not care much.

As it happens, I have dealt with the Japanese commercially for a number of years and been out to Tokyo a bit. I am often amused by Western karateka who think they have some insight into traditional Japanese culture through going to classes in the West and being able to name their techniques approximately in Japanese. Even funnier are the ones-we have probably all seen them on occasion-who imagine that through "tradional" MA they have become some kind of samurai, yamabushi or whatever (but daytime accountants or whatever ).

B.


Edited by Barad (05/15/08 10:24 AM)

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#387637 - 05/15/08 10:22 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Barad]
harlan Offline
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For me, 'traditional' is how sensei teaches it. Goes back one generation. LOL! More a question of passing along what one was taught. I suppose that only matters tho', if what one was taught was any good.

So, to elaborate on 'traditional'. If it was good, why change it? And if one is changing it...then one can't honestly say the art they are practicing is 'traditional'. Especially if the ideas are from other systems. It's not like one studies an art, and says...'okay...I've been doing it this way for 20 years...and it's just plain bunk. It should be done this way.' vs...'Hey...those Tai chi guys/baqua guys, HAPV guys are doing something interesting...wonder if I can use that...'

To me...that's like drinking from two cups.

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#387638 - 05/15/08 10:39 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: harlan]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Quote:

So Dan, and others that look to other 'systems' to inform their main style...a question.

If you 'take' from other systems, such as Mr. McCarthy's, do you still consider what you are doing 'traditional'? For Dan...do you still consider your Goju to be 'traditional Goju'? Or, do you consider your system to be 'missing' something that you have added in to from non-Goju? And is it still Goju if borrowing from other systems?

Do you tell your students...'this is how I learned it (show them) and this is what I'm doing (show them) and why'.




I like the quote made about Chen Pan-Ling's "synthetic" taiji system constructed in 1948 as a synthesis of the 5 major styles of taiji: "Though eclectic, it is grounded in the traditional forms and brimming with the ancient spirit".

The individual technqiues are ancient. If I add one or 2 drills comprising these ancient techniques (and I take nothing away) or if I reinterpret a bunkai based on my Chinese arts practice (from what is to me a fairly "dubious" interpretion that is "traditional" amongst most goju karateka), I don't see how I'm anything but traditional.

But in simpler terms - we teach traditional goju-ryu with a couple of extra shorin forms. We add some drills to the traditional base without "taking" away anything.

I tell my students: "this is what I was taught, and this is what I've invented". I'm upfront. I don't pretend to have "discovered" secret knowledge. If I disagree with a "traditional" interpretation, I back it up with reasoning. I'm happy to revisit things if I am shown to be wrong. I have an interest in pursuing the truth, not proving I am right at all costs.

So yes, we are "traditional", but we add some stuff that is composed of "traditional techniques" but not in traditonal sequences. I'd like to think what we do is still "brimming with ancient spirit".

We tell our students that our school of karate is "Muidokan" (the house of wu-wei dao - the way of achieving everything with no unnatural action). We don't say it is pure goju - just that goju is part of what we do (we do 3 shorin based forms as well, some Taiwanese forms and the internal arts as well...)
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#387639 - 05/15/08 10:43 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: harlan]
shoshinkan Offline
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traditionally speaking karate on Okinawa was a very mixed bag of methods, ideas and development, from what i cna tell anyhow, very individual (hence all the Ryu and variations),

eg what Dan's group are doing is FAR more traditional IMO than the generally accepted systemised Ryu that claim tradition (outside of the tradition of their founder).

I guess it's difficult to define tradition, the most accurate element of it for me is based on historical truths.
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#387640 - 05/15/08 11:50 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: shoshinkan]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Thanks Jim. I'd say you're traditional if you adhere to a particular set of values and concepts generally fitting this category. We all like to think our method is 'truer', more 'faithful' etc. when probably none of us fits the mould entirely.

For this reason I'm quite accepting of others claims of traditionalism. It might not be my cup of tea, but that doesn't mean I'm right - just that I have my own interpretation of what is traditional - a view that suits my taste/personality/theories etc.

Harlan and Jim, do you 'borrow from other schools? If so, to what extent?
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#387641 - 05/15/08 12:38 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: dandjurdjevic]
shoshinkan Offline
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generally I trian with any decent people I can, mostly related to my interests.

I learn lots that way.

As opposed to simply replicate what I pick up on, I tend to 'see' more in my shorin ryu and work according to the base principles of that art, found within the classical kata.

Im proud these days of cross training, non lineage, research based karate practice and feel it is of far more benefit to me and my students and indeed shorin ryu, from a historical/practical perspective.

Of course I respect lineage (I just dont have it ), in my opinion it is just often vastly overatted and abused, I am fortunate of course to have superb lineage Seniors around me whom seem to support my efforts and keep me on track.
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#387642 - 05/15/08 12:52 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: shoshinkan]
harlan Offline
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I don't borrow. As a beginner, I personally have enough on my plate with Goju and kobudo as it's presented to me. Is what I'm learning infused with insights from decades of learning from others? I think so. But if asked 'do you do a synthesis of styles', I'd say no. As I understand it, it's more of an interpretation thing for bunkai. 'We tend toward Higa on most things, Toguchi on others.' But...it's still Goju. Supplimentary exercises, such as 'gong li' from Liu Chang's Feeding Crane are not Goju...but are useful overall. Do others seek a connection with Crane stuff/Chinese stuff? Maybe...but if so it's outside of the purview of small fry such as myself.

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#387643 - 05/15/08 01:49 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: harlan]
CVV Offline
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Okinawans tend to do things their way, heavily influenced by the Chinese but still with their flavor. Wich makes karate to have a unique flavor.

Look at this www.youtube.com/watch?v=89_cUe-Sjkk and tell me what you see.

I think every generation synthesized what they learned to pass on. Changes and choices came along. The kata from 100 years ago are not the kata we practice today. In general the surrounding and thus the intent of how we train is in a complete different concept than 100 years ago.

For me most of the 'traditional' is marketing. You can only teach what you learned. Putting the word 'traditional' before it is not going to make it more or less authentic.



Edited by CVV (05/15/08 02:04 PM)

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#387644 - 05/15/08 02:03 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: CVV]
harlan Offline
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Folks say 'Matayoshi was a quietly revered Goju man.' I'm curious about the Okinawan 'family' systems, and what, if any, impact they had in the final evolution of karate.

I don't see Goju. While I see bits that could be parts of kata in form, and other bits that seem to be the same bunkai, it's not cohesive enough to say 'Heck...see the Goju?' As you say, the current kata are the results of deliberate design over time. I think this is from another stream.

(Not that my opinion matters. I'm a rank beginner...so thanks for humoring me. )

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#387645 - 05/15/08 02:20 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: harlan]
CVV Offline
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Why do you see bits of Goju-kata in it. Is this authentic ? Is my Goju authentic ?
Due to a broad base created by Higashiaonna/Miyagi, we can discuss Goju and their kata. The same can be said for the other 'styles'. But Before 1933, nobody talked about style. Just about schools and teachers. So what is 'traditional' and 'authentic' ? It's pretty recent.

I believe that in the past, kata were a more complex study. What we do now is a synthesized version where movements and techniques have been 'standardized'. The research towards old ways of training and doing might open some doors but the old way is not our way. We do not live the way they lived. The cultural and economic/social surrounding have huge impact.

Loocking at what the Chinese do now is imo not the defenite answer in researching karate 'gaps'. Take 2-handed pushing hand drills from CMA and compare to kakie. I think they might have the same origin but relating 2-hand push drills with a tensho flavor as the ultimate application of softness in Goju stuns me completely. Maybe I am just not 'advanced' enough but concluding that Miyagi did not understand the core principles of soft/hard enough to come up with 2 handed push drills makes me dizzy.

But it is good that this research is part of karate study and it's good that we can discuss it. Like Miyagi said 'Think, you will figure it out'. Thinking with many might give better understanding individually.


Edited by CVV (05/15/08 02:40 PM)

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#387646 - 05/15/08 02:43 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: CVV]
harlan Offline
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My mistake, please let me clarify. I didn't mean to infer any connection between the two, other than Matayoshi did both. As a newbie, I can look at stuff and say 'hey...it looks like a piece of this Goju kata.' Doesn't mean that it's the same, or that theres a connection.

It's your example. What do you see?

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#387647 - 05/15/08 02:59 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: harlan]
CVV Offline
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I did not see your comment as a mistake. Because other than those who practise the kata can give an answer to the origin. I am not one of them.

But comparing the techniques of this kata with what I know from studying Goju-ryu karate makes me wonder what evolution the kata in Goju-ryu have gone through. I remember some kata having more 'koryu' techniques like keiko-ken(saifa), nakadaka-ken(seipai) or hira-ken(kururunfa), but most of the schools no longer show them and use standard seiken. The variety of techniques that are shown in the Kingai-ryu kata make me believe that the kata we do today have left out much of these koryu techniques. In time they will be forgotten completely, at least how to train them to make these techniques effective.

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#387648 - 05/15/08 03:04 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: CVV]
harlan Offline
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Since I study Matayoshi kobudo, and feel an affinity for Kingai, on top of the emphasis our Goju has...I am suspect of my ideas on things. Having been told that me 'opinions don't count' on some forums, I'd rather be told 'this is this', than spin my wheels wondering about connections.

Thank you for explaining.

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#387649 - 05/15/08 04:24 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: CVV]
Neko456 Offline
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Kingai-Ryu & his Hakaku-Kempo background I'm very impressed with Matayoshi's system which orginiated from S. White crane. His movement has even more Gung-fu then Goju or Uechi he seems to be able to bridge the gap between soft Shorin/Tomari-te and Naha-Te systems. Along with his kubudo skills that bought to some Goju dojos I am very impressed with his work.

I also see a connection to what old Chunfa/Kempo look and feel it was said in our Goju bouchers that Goju-ryu maintained this look and feel but I believe that Matayoshi's system held that honor. Of course this is spectualtive.

But his skill also kill the idea of one Kata one Karate. He seemed to be gifted with numerous Kata from various back grounds. As it was with all the major Masters but they perfered and taught a certain combination different from their Chinese Sifu's.

As the theory goes with Kagashionna.
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#387650 - 05/15/08 05:00 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Neko456]
Neko456 Offline
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As the theory goes with Kagashionna.

Sorry I meant Hagashionna speed typing I thought I read that, before submitting.
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#387651 - 05/17/08 08:39 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
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Loc: London, UK
Quote:


These are just my own thoughts as a Goju practitioner, take 'em or leave 'em.

Gekisai is actually alot more linear than pretty much every other kata, and (not that this matters neccessarily) it is not a koryu kata. Honestly gekisai has always struck me as being more like shorin ryu than any other kata.

Saifa is fairly unique in terms of application, there are a couple of things that aren't repeated in other kata.

Personally to me Seisan embodies the framework of Goju of any kata, but this is just subjective opinion, as it is one of my personal favorites.

While there are a ton of repeated sequences and techniques in Goju kata, there are also huge differences, if you compare Sepai and Seisan for example they seem to employ totally different strategies.

however, if you compare Seisan and Sanseiryu, they share many of the same techniques and they seem more similar and "hard" for lack of a better word.





Zach, might these differences not be explained by the hard/soft dichotomy of Goju ryu?
Has anyone ever looked and tried to divide goju into hard and soft by kata?
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#387652 - 05/17/08 09:05 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: CVV]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Quote:

Looking at what the Chinese do now is imo not the defenite answer in researching karate 'gaps'. Take 2-handed pushing hand drills from CMA and compare to kakie. I think they might have the same origin but relating 2-hand push drills with a tensho flavor as the ultimate application of softness in Goju stuns me completely. Maybe I am just not 'advanced' enough but concluding that Miyagi did not understand the core principles of soft/hard enough to come up with 2 handed push drills makes me dizzy.




Looking at CMA is not definitive - I think the Okinawan arts have an element of uniqueness (see my blog article: http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/05/how-much-chinese-is-there-in-karate.html).

However I feel that most of the martial techniques have some distant lineage to CMA. I invite you to consider another of my blog articles: http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/05/karate-and-chinese-martial-arts-part-1.html.

I don't purport to say that "Miyagi did not understand the core principles of soft/hard enough to come up with 2 handed push drills". However I think it is fair to say that there is an aspect of CMA that might augment understanding of techniques in goju. After all, Miyagi had one perspective - he wasn't omniscient, regardless of his genius and personal ability. Others had and continue to have different perspectives. Examining different perspectives is always profitable, unless one adheres rigidly to the view that a "style" must be maintained at all costs (ie. it must not be "polluted" by outside influences).

Plus I think it is a fair bet that a lot of what Miyagi knew is lost: obviously when a master dies, he takes his understanding with him. The techniques might remain (ie. the "xing"/form) but sometimes not the full extent of the understanding (the "yi"/mind).
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#387653 - 05/17/08 09:05 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


Zach, might these differences not be explained by the hard/soft dichotomy of Goju ryu?
Has anyone ever looked and tried to divide goju into hard and soft by kata?




Hmmm, I guess arguably the old adage about hard containing soft and soft containing hard would probably apply.

I do think on a philosophical level this is a nice way of looking at it, but on the other hand the kata are very different and i'm personally inclined to think they came from different ssytems originally.

I've seen people break them into broad categories of harder and softer.

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#387654 - 05/17/08 09:32 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Zach_Zinn]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Has anyone thought to examine goju kata by reference to go/ju?

This has been done by many in the cluster H and M debate. Sorry to bore you with my blog entries (ignore this if I am), but consider my summary here: http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/05/origins-of-goju-kata.html.
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#387655 - 05/19/08 07:03 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: dandjurdjevic]
CVV Offline
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Miyagi said : Think, you will figure it out yourselve.
(Tomohuru Kisaki, Takeshi Uchiage through his father Kenzo, Eiichi Miyazato in his book).

It is good that kata are investigated by various methods to come to a better understanding. But although Miyagi was not omniscient, he did create the Tensho kata, so I guess he pretty much knew what he intended it to be.

The comment about the push-hand drill was not intended to be about how you train but more towards what to conclude. For me the two-handed drill is not the ultimate conclusion on tensho (looking at the title of this thread). That is what I meant.

Splitting up the kata regarding views on soft and hard. The name Goju-ryu came around 1933. Miyagi was teaching the kata already from 1917. The principles of hard and soft are found in all karate, not just goju-ryu. I agree that the cluster H kata start from a hard perspective and that kata like seiunchin/tensho more encompass soft techniques. Miyagi certainly added tensho to underline the soft aspects of what he thaught.
But I feel that hard/external systems from shaolin derived styles have their starting point there and will evolve eventually to softer and with more emhasis on internal aspects. It's just a starting point to begin with. Eventually using hard/soft internal/external becomes one in body/mind/spirit.

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#387656 - 05/19/08 08:51 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: CVV]
Shonuff Offline
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Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Well put CVV
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#387657 - 05/19/08 08:52 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: CVV]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
This echoes Chen Pan-Ling's comment that goal of every hard artist should be to become softer and the goal of every soft artist should be to become harder.

The end goal is a balance.
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#387658 - 08/22/08 08:26 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: dandjurdjevic]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
bump

For those of you interested in the historical re/de-construction of Goju, an interesting thread relating on the topic. Mr. McKenna speaks again...and ruffles some feathers.

http://www.gojuryu.net/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=893&pid=9705#post_9705


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