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#387495 - 03/22/08 05:39 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-232DNU8_TI


For some reason this makes more sense to me. The guy is resisting some what
This is the write up. See what you and others think.
You say go and train with people. I do. But unless I can see
something where I will gain some kind of skills then I wont.
To many pretenders.
Time would then be better spent on basics, fitness, weight training.

This what the young guy who took part wrote about .
This took place at windy city's wing chun 5th annual seminar. I take no credit at all, as my Sifu just showed some superior blocking skills.

If you know what to look for you can see tons of different concepts being applied.

The 1st thing to notice is that a skilled practioner really just blocks the majority of the time, the unskilled, tries to cover that up by simply blizting the attack. Its very common in the wing chun world for many to do that.

Also, what how blocks come about, its not done by the hand but by the body.


You can visually see this since sifu's center stays consistent throughout, and simply turns in conjunction with the amount of force,

while the hands don't chase out which is a common no no in wing chun. Let the attacks come to your house, and the closer they are the safer it is for you. All to often, people will shoot out their hands trying to reach out to block.

Blocking is a simple concept but difficult to do, know the person's centerline,


have your triangle constantly point to that indivudals center line, and go with the force. While there are many more concepts involved these are the general three which one must follow to develop superior blocking skills.

Finally in some glimpses you see freezing out motions, where you can literally lock out your opponents motions, by simply holding your structure and techincally freezing his hand motion.


All to often wing chun is confused with the concept of sticky hands. Sticky hands is not about sticking to people, its making people stick to you.


Out in the street, people will not do sticky hands in a real fight, what your developing is the ability so that people will stick to your hands. In a simple concept imagine your hands as blades, if you position your blades in the right angle, whatever touches it will cut into it, thus forcing that individual to stick.

This to me is one idea of bringing someone into kakie.

Anyway, if you want to get good in wing chun, practice blocking more then attacking. If you can block anything thrown at you, you can then attack at will. (less)


Edited by jude33 (03/22/08 05:50 PM)

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#387496 - 03/22/08 08:58 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: jude33]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Quote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-232DNU8_TI


For some reason this makes more sense to me. The guy is resisting some what
This is the write up. See what you and others think.
You say go and train with people. I do. But unless I can see
something where I will gain some kind of skills then I wont.
To many pretenders.
Time would then be better spent on basics, fitness, weight training.





Good excuse.

The vid you posted shows wingchun defense more than attack, but it is nothing different to the others on the thread. Good find though.
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#387497 - 03/22/08 11:50 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



Good excuse.




More like rational thinking.
Quote:


The vid you posted shows wingchun defense more than attack, but it is nothing different to the others on the thread. Good find though.




I think it is. I think there were those that completed their studies under Yip Man and those that didint. I think the difference was it was done more against resistance and the guy doing it knew what he was doing.
I would have no objections to training like this or with him.
I can see it fitting in to what I do.

In a way I think its one of many drills and perhaps going back to how a part of karate should have been trained along with grappling.

Another thing that has come up in my studies. A lot of people who look to train white crane further seem to travel to Taiwan.

I am aware there is a diffence between white crane and wing chun.

Jude

Just my thoughts.


Edited by jude33 (03/23/08 12:28 AM)

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#387498 - 03/24/08 02:52 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Taira Sensei moves through the kata bunkai in the demo, in a real altercation you just cant do that. The ability to flow and adapt to what is happening is the point of chi-sau and though the skills in discussion can be developed without it, I don't think they will come as quickly or to the same degree of applicability.

I agree Chi-Sau is more self expressive then that, but I was just saying the principles of flowing with the opponents movement was in that example. I do agree with you No one could stay standing if he connected with those inside strikes, joint locks, grion slaps, elbows to temple and side of the head and etc. But as you can see I see it different then you not that a real fight doesn't move like that but that if u had those connections, that wouldn't last that long.

That demo was basicaily a flow drill incoroperating Chi Sau like principle but it wasn't free movement Chi Sau.

It showd Goju's perfered range of fighting isn't TKD/Kumite range.
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#387499 - 03/24/08 04:38 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
Bossman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Chatham Kent UK
Quote:

Finally!

Someone seems to have remembered that Goju ryu is supposed to have soft elements.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=uzFJ2BrmYZc&feature=related

After studying Crane kungfu and seeing how their system is arranged I have often thought that Goju ryu was meant to start with Sanchin, followed by Tensho, with everything else following on from this basis of the Hard/Soft dichotomy expressed in these forms.

However this is the first time I've seen anyone aside from Nathan Johnson make any real use of Tensho, and especially think to derive chi sau/push hands drills which would help develop the student's close quarter skills and work towards bridging the gap between how Gojuka do things and their southern chinese style counterparts.

I'd had it in mind that if I never found anything like this I would develop it myself, glad to see I don't have to.

Gojuka, is this drill as new to you as it is to me, or is it one of those things you just don't see much if you haven't trained Goju for years?




What I see is a very basic taiji push hands drill that could be applied to Tensho, as could many others. Every part of a move in Tensho can be used for many different applications and these can be run off a lot of push hands drills (I don't know if the video is just one of many for these guys). We certainly use many and then run them into freestyle.

Nathan Johnson is an enthusiastic martial artist with a great 'outside of the box' view for many karateka that he enjoys sharing, I think it's unfair to view him as a merchant for sharing. I have known him for nearly 2 decades and he is always a delight to train and share with.
_________________________
supporting standards in the martial arts www.shikon.com www.masa.org.uk

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#387500 - 03/24/08 07:47 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Bossman]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Bossman,

Pehaps I was a touch judgemental, as I said, I certainly believe he knows his stuff and I think combining Sanchin Tensho and Naihanchi into a single system was inspired. Sometimes though his presentation leaves a lot to be desired.

As for the drill, it is good to hear that there are others out there working contact range. I made some suggestions on how to make use of chisau drills, perhaps you can add to it or tell us about some of the drills your school uses?
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#387501 - 03/24/08 08:27 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
Bossman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Chatham Kent UK
I find chi sao too jeky and 'sticky'for me, I prefer more blending and redirecting or wedging more efficient, There's a bit of my push hands here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTTitoEzvlA
But I'm not sure it's that representative of what we are talking about here, I'd have to show Tensho push hands and applications.
_________________________
supporting standards in the martial arts www.shikon.com www.masa.org.uk

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#387502 - 03/24/08 11:02 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Bossman]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
That was a good shot cut purposeful application to the end results of Chi sau without the constant feed back, but an instant responce to incoming and still showing how to blend and flow with incoming. I fully agree that you don't have to or need to move back in and forth to fend or eventually return an assault.

I do see Chi sau as a middle ground but not the only way to the wedge principle and a way to do this effortlessly.
As I mentioned in the Taria/Sepia bunkia the flow of an assault can be over in 3 seconds if done properly and unexpected, no one really expects to be taken out after their 1st couple strikes.

Predator or prey is a good way to look at things and its more simpler then the Reptile function of the Brain idea.
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DBAckerson

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#387503 - 03/24/08 12:14 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Bossman]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
I feel the same about wing chun chi-sau and prefer the white crane version of the exercise. Unfortunately I couldn't find any video's of it.

Great vid, it is good that there are martial artists like you who are so willing to share their knowledge.
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#387504 - 03/24/08 12:17 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Shonuff:

Nenad, the Goju stylist you refer to, doesn't really post here. If you'd like to discuss his Goju, he posts regularly at www.gojuryu.net

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