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#387485 - 03/20/08 09:25 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: MattJ]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Hate to say it, but i've seen kakie practiced the way you guys are doing Chi Sao in the videos.

It's less common but i've seen it, i've done it in a similar manner sometimes.

So while there may be some philosophical differences, I would say the 2 things are more of a continuum than seperate entities.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/20/08 09:25 PM)

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#387486 - 03/21/08 07:54 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: MattJ]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Matt,

Though it is a good practice I wouldn't count what you showed as being chi sau either, though it began from a single hand chi sau position. Chi sau practice involves you always keeping contact with your opponents limbs.

Chi-sau or sticky hands is a sensitivity exercise performed either single handed or with both hands. It develops relaxation and tactile sensitivity through which one can sense intention and respond to it. It trains primarily non resistive blending type defense and is a hallmark of many southern chinese kungfu styles.

wing chun chi sau
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaP1X-lEtgc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0Q-jZ7fuws

You'll notice the blindfold in the second clip (as well as the incredibly smooth jazz soundtrack) which is a hallmark of the skills developed in this type of practice, i.e. response to movement felt not seen.

An important point is that chi sau is a training drill and not the be all and end all of combat.

5 Ancestors
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oZraRtBDlg

In this clip you see some of how chi sau skills can be applied practically. As you can see contact is broken in much the same way as shown in Matt's vids, but when he has contact Sifu Leong deflects and traps his opponents motions the instant they happen.

You'll also note that both the wing chun and the 5 ancestors teachers kept square to their opponent. Western fight philosophy likes to use half facing and since people learned TKD many use a complete side-on stance.
Close quarter styles fight square-on to the opponent in order to employ both hands and feet to the fullest extent and minimise potential blind-siding (as you have with one shoulder forward).
Goju ryu kata shows technique square to the opponent as it is from the same southern chinese philosophy, but up until now as far as I could tell it seemed to be missing the exercises that helped develop the skill sets that accompanied the theory.

here's another Chi-sau-esq practice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GutCwLlWoe8
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#387487 - 03/21/08 11:15 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
MattJ Offline
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Shonuff -

Fair point, what we do is not orthodox Chi Sao. I should have been more clear. Thanks for the vids.

Zach -

I don't discount the possibility of karate schools doing the same thing in kakie, just haven't seen it myself yet.
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#387488 - 03/21/08 07:18 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
CVV Offline
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Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Quote:


The pattern you describe would suggest that a Gojuka is meant to train through the system with the hard Sanchin mindset, and then perhaps retrain with the intention of re-examining the kata and training with a softer Tensho mindset.

That would mean that after geksai brought up basic fitness, co-ordination and balance, the student would develop his internal power and strengthen himself from the inside out through the battle of mind body and breath a la sanchin.
This tough "hard work" approach would permeate all training constantly pushing the student into higher realms of physical and mental toughness. Application would concentrate on the basic linear hard elements of the kata and of fighting through drills like kakie and ippon kumite and sparring until Tensho is reached. The student then revisits the classical kata and engages in the longer term study of the complete potential of the movements of each form applying soft circular concepts and developing a base of new skills through two person drills such as chi sau, flow drills and free sparring.




In a sence yes. I agree that initially the hard mindset is stressed in training although the soft is already taken with it in the beginning. Problem is that the soft aspects are not understood in the beginning. But towards training, tensho is trained every training, at least in our school
and within Uchiage-kai branch here in Belgium.
A good training kata to try to understand the soft aspects is seiunchin wich has a lot of circular techniques in it with large movements in low stance (shiko-dachi).

I also believe as you state that in time, your fighting becomes softer through training the kata and applying in yakusoku kumite and jyu kumite. The video MATTJ posted is a bit in line with some training fighting we do, but I never call this chisao or kakie training.
I have an instructional video of Morio Higaonna starting from the kakie position (one handed) initiating kakie then as he pushes or pulls executing techniques from kata. Sort of predefined kakie-bunkai sets.

Revisiting the classical kata, investigating concepts made aware through training is a never ending process wich makes training interesting imo.

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#387489 - 03/21/08 07:44 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I see the Gojuka as demo of flowing hand Tensho like movement. Emphasizing flow and soft movement which are the building blocks to Chi Sao practice but not application.
I do notice there were no across the body movement in the Gojuka demo and wonder why. I find it good practice to build upon and not loose the essence of Go Ju.

The other WC and Ancestor vidoes showed application of of sticking hand techniques almost slap boxing using these principles in the Ancestor demo, not the start of how techiques flows as in the Gojuka demo.

If you already got the flow and know how to use it then the GoJuka would be invalid to you, if you need to know it would be valid, not to forget whats going on everything is not hard. This type movement or mindset starts standing all the way to the ground he feels the door opening as he pushes and it being slamed in his face.

If you really want to see Goju's Chi-Sao like flow application watch the Taira Sensei's Sepia Bunkia. Youtube it.



Edited by Neko456 (03/21/08 07:51 PM)
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#387490 - 03/21/08 08:58 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Neko456]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmExIWEglSo

I agree, nice stuff.

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#387491 - 03/22/08 07:02 AM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Neko456]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Neko

I've seen it before and I said the same thing then as I said now. The difference is that some folks chimed in about how unrealistic and compliant the demo was and how real fights can't work like that.

The thing is I've never seen anyone other than Taira sensei use Goju ryu in this manner, and in truth the vid does show a pre-arranged demo. That's not to say no one else does use Goju in this way, hence my asking if I was missing something, but those who do not have a better chance of getting there by incorporating flow drills and chisau practice like the one I put up. Taira Sensei moves through the kata bunkai in the demo, in a real altercation you just cant do that. The ability to flow and adapt to what is happening is the point of chi-sau and though the skills in discussion can be developed without it, I don't think they will come as quickly or to the same degree of applicability.

The drill I posted should be practiced for the first 5 minutes of each session as a non conflicting movement exercise where the cycle of of push deflect and counter is continued seemlessly. The focus is to keep in contact only and is challenged only by the students changing speed on each other, and with the Tensho drills shown their is the potential to work on switching heights during the drill, effectively begining the student on looking for openings but more importantly starts the student learning to relax and work from sensitivity.

Then do the same but while moving while trying to keep square to the opponent.
Return to stationary with eyes closed
Moving with eyes closed

Then students work on trying to unbalance while stationary. This is the begining of wrestling, as students progress joint locks etc can be included and movement allowed but no striking so the student learns to flow and unbalance without emphasis on resistance.

Then striking begins while stationary, where any hand technique is allowed. Students should work on learning trapping and escapes from traps, all of which I see in tensho.

Introduce kicking,
Introduce unbalancing while stationary,

Then striking and unbalancing while moving, i,e, anything upper body is allowed plus sweeps and trips, the only aim is students build all of their techniques from contact.
Add kicking.

Then if you want you can do the full chi sau exercise where anything goes while both parties are blindfolded.

This type of training develops the unconscious senses and responses of your body while teaching your mind to listen to those senses and examine new ways of seeking openings to your opponent. Whatever level you are at, the key to this training is to be relaxed. You will get hit, and you will land on the opponent but it doesn't matter. If you are not relaxed your body isn't learning anything. Where your mind learns is in the careful examination of your opponents defense. What happens when you push straight down the middle, what about when his hand is at this part of the cycle, if I trap like this but don't hit how do I follow without giving up the advantage, etc.

Relaxation is everything. Students always start to tense up when striking or unbalancing begins, but the exercise is to teach you to find a defense without resisiting.

Always stop and look at why you got hit and think how could I have moved to evade and take advantage of his position.
At each stage of training look inside yourself and see if you are tensing up, if so go back to the base movement until you are relaxed and begin again.
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#387492 - 03/22/08 01:02 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Matt,

Though it is a good practice I wouldn't count what you showed as being chi sau either, though it began from a single hand chi sau position. Chi sau practice involves you always keeping contact with your opponents limbs.

Chi-sau or sticky hands is a sensitivity exercise performed either single handed or with both hands. It develops relaxation and tactile sensitivity through which one can sense intention and respond to it. It trains primarily non resistive blending type defense and is a hallmark of many southern chinese kungfu styles.





The problem I have from the videos is how does a person know that the Chi-sau/ shown is how it was meant to be used? From my readings there are other drills in white crane?
I havent seen them yet. I have seen one drill from white crane using zan chin that makes sense to me. That was getting the centre line and off balance-ing the opponent.


So at what stage does the training become resistive?
Drills are fine. To be honest I can stand all day using the maki- wari.


A pressure testing method might be for someone with the skills to try it against a fast hard boxer or a trained wrestler.
I recall seeing a top wing chun guys in MMA competion and the apparent skills said to be learned from such method's trained in the videos isnt used at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epCbRTofOHw&feature=related

Here as you posted is the skills they are supposed to have trained?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaP1X-lEtgc

Why is that?

The next question is what if the opponent isnt in close or moves out of range? I dont see any method of training/ skill set to keep the partner in close range??

Its one of the problems I find with this kind of training.
Its not trained at any time under pressure, or when it is then they dont use it.

Again some of the answers I think are in ti, certain existing karate techniques, combined with grappling skills.

In fact my research in the origins of ti are leading me that direction as well.



I think what Medulant was refering to, the fact that his wrestling ability gave him insight into karate as well as kata, and the methods of use of ti is more than likely correct.




Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/22/08 01:29 PM)

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#387493 - 03/22/08 02:36 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Neko

I've seen it before and I said the same thing then as I said now. The difference is that some folks chimed in about how unrealistic and compliant the demo was and how real fights can't work like that.




Real fights do work like that in one sense, one person dominates the other, and gives him no opportunities to reverse the situation, I'm willing to bet that Taira and his students are perfectly capable of doing just that, though admittedly that's not what's being shown here.

Taking one demo and drawing sweeping conclusions about a whole training method is a little silly.

Quote:


The thing is I've never seen anyone other than Taira sensei use Goju ryu in this manner, and in truth the vid does show a pre-arranged demo. That's not to say no one else does use Goju in this way, hence my asking if I was missing something, but those who do not have a better chance of getting there by incorporating flow drills and chisau practice like the one I put up. Taira Sensei moves through the kata bunkai in the demo, in a real altercation you just cant do that. The ability to flow and adapt to what is happening is the point of chi-sau and though the skills in discussion can be developed without it, I don't think they will come as quickly or to the same degree of applicability.





With all due respect Shonuff, I think it's fairly accurate to say that the practice of 'flow' type drills (some of which resemble chisao) is not unusual in Goju Ryu.

Also I don't agree that formal chisao practice is somehow superior to this vein of bunkai practice, in the end you can't 'do' chisao in a fight and come out on top either, there is something to be said for drills which are more one-sided like the one posted, as long as there is the more resistant component involved as well.

Toguchi-Ha Goju bunkai drills tend to be more equal in terms of both sides exchanging techniques, IMO that's not neccessarily a superior approach, we all know that action is faster than reaction and it is worth considering the idea that too much reliance on 'sensitivty' creates a "reactive" mindset. Just a thought.

Anyway, look at the gekisai drill posted in the renzoku thread, that is a wide ranging beginner bunkai drill that is less compliant, it's not my favorite particularly but I figured i'd point it out because it's something that alot of Goju schools seem to use.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/22/08 02:44 PM)

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#387494 - 03/22/08 03:47 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: jude33]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Quote:


The problem I have from the videos is how does a person know that the Chi-sau/ shown is how it was meant to be used?





They go to a wingchun school or a white crane school and they learn it from the teacher. Karate may have had a problem with the transmission of the art but most chinese styles if trained through a reputable linneage (and often times when not) are well understood and passed on as intended.


Quote:


I havent seen them yet. I have seen one drill from white crane using zan chin that makes sense to me. That was getting the centre line and off balance-ing the opponent.






Find a school and train with them, then you will know.


Quote:


So at what stage does the training become resistive?
Drills are fine.




When the students doing the exercise are ready to. If you make yourself hard during the exercise you won't develop the skills the chi-sau are designed to teach. If you want to attack or be attacked with full strength and speed you should, but I'd wait until you are skilled enough to employ softer defense methods at lower speeds.


Quote:


A pressure testing method might be for someone with the skills to try it against a fast hard boxer or a trained wrestler.




Yup, thats a perfectly good pressure test. The thing to remember is that if it doesn't work it may mean you need to train more until you can make it work.


Quote:


I recall seeing a top wing chun guys in MMA competion and the apparent skills said to be learned from such method's trained in the videos isnt used at all.






http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epCbRTofOHw&feature=related

Here as you posted is the skills they are supposed to have trained?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaP1X-lEtgc

Why is that?





Shonuff said:
Quote:

An important point is that chi-sau is a training drill and not the be all and end all of combat.





Perhaps he didn't feel those methods were appropriate against that fighter, and figured the choke would be fine?
Perhaps he's not that great at applying those methods?
Perhaps he feels it is not an effective method in free fighting?
Perhaps he focussed on other things in training?
Perhaps he doesn't like applying methods like that?
Perhaps he doesn't know how to apply those skills in free combat?
Perhaps he thought other aspects of wingchun would be easier to apply in that instance?

Ultimately to answer that question you would need to expand your research into actually training with some folks and seeing what they think.

What I can tell you is that there is a vid on youtube of the same wingchun guy teaching chi-sau. Perhaps that can give you some insight into your question.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKkp19KV9xg&feature=related

Quote:


The next question is what if the opponent isnt in close or moves out of range? I dont see any method of training/ skill set to keep the partner in close range??




a) Use something else
b) Hold him
c) Footwork
d) Bridging


Quote:


Its one of the problems I find with this kind of training.
Its not trained at any time under pressure, or when it is then they dont use it.




As I said you would need to find a school and train it as opposed to watching demo vids on youtube to find out how and when resistance is added. Once you've learned the method then you can take it and add as much resistance as you like for your personal development.

Quote:


Again some of the answers I think are in ti, certain existing karate techniques, combined with grappling skills.

In fact my research in the origins of ti are leading me that direction as well.

I think what Medulant was refering to, the fact that his wrestling ability gave him insight into karate as well as kata, and the methods of use of ti is more than likely correct.





Best of luck with your research Jude, and I think your on the right track, Karate plus grappling = formidable fighter!
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