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#387645 - 05/15/08 02:20 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: harlan]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Why do you see bits of Goju-kata in it. Is this authentic ? Is my Goju authentic ?
Due to a broad base created by Higashiaonna/Miyagi, we can discuss Goju and their kata. The same can be said for the other 'styles'. But Before 1933, nobody talked about style. Just about schools and teachers. So what is 'traditional' and 'authentic' ? It's pretty recent.

I believe that in the past, kata were a more complex study. What we do now is a synthesized version where movements and techniques have been 'standardized'. The research towards old ways of training and doing might open some doors but the old way is not our way. We do not live the way they lived. The cultural and economic/social surrounding have huge impact.

Loocking at what the Chinese do now is imo not the defenite answer in researching karate 'gaps'. Take 2-handed pushing hand drills from CMA and compare to kakie. I think they might have the same origin but relating 2-hand push drills with a tensho flavor as the ultimate application of softness in Goju stuns me completely. Maybe I am just not 'advanced' enough but concluding that Miyagi did not understand the core principles of soft/hard enough to come up with 2 handed push drills makes me dizzy.

But it is good that this research is part of karate study and it's good that we can discuss it. Like Miyagi said 'Think, you will figure it out'. Thinking with many might give better understanding individually.


Edited by CVV (05/15/08 02:40 PM)

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#387646 - 05/15/08 02:43 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: CVV]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
My mistake, please let me clarify. I didn't mean to infer any connection between the two, other than Matayoshi did both. As a newbie, I can look at stuff and say 'hey...it looks like a piece of this Goju kata.' Doesn't mean that it's the same, or that theres a connection.

It's your example. What do you see?

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#387647 - 05/15/08 02:59 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: harlan]
CVV Offline
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Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
I did not see your comment as a mistake. Because other than those who practise the kata can give an answer to the origin. I am not one of them.

But comparing the techniques of this kata with what I know from studying Goju-ryu karate makes me wonder what evolution the kata in Goju-ryu have gone through. I remember some kata having more 'koryu' techniques like keiko-ken(saifa), nakadaka-ken(seipai) or hira-ken(kururunfa), but most of the schools no longer show them and use standard seiken. The variety of techniques that are shown in the Kingai-ryu kata make me believe that the kata we do today have left out much of these koryu techniques. In time they will be forgotten completely, at least how to train them to make these techniques effective.

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#387648 - 05/15/08 03:04 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: CVV]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Since I study Matayoshi kobudo, and feel an affinity for Kingai, on top of the emphasis our Goju has...I am suspect of my ideas on things. Having been told that me 'opinions don't count' on some forums, I'd rather be told 'this is this', than spin my wheels wondering about connections.

Thank you for explaining.

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#387649 - 05/15/08 04:24 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: CVV]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Kingai-Ryu & his Hakaku-Kempo background I'm very impressed with Matayoshi's system which orginiated from S. White crane. His movement has even more Gung-fu then Goju or Uechi he seems to be able to bridge the gap between soft Shorin/Tomari-te and Naha-Te systems. Along with his kubudo skills that bought to some Goju dojos I am very impressed with his work.

I also see a connection to what old Chunfa/Kempo look and feel it was said in our Goju bouchers that Goju-ryu maintained this look and feel but I believe that Matayoshi's system held that honor. Of course this is spectualtive.

But his skill also kill the idea of one Kata one Karate. He seemed to be gifted with numerous Kata from various back grounds. As it was with all the major Masters but they perfered and taught a certain combination different from their Chinese Sifu's.

As the theory goes with Kagashionna.
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#387650 - 05/15/08 05:00 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Neko456]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
As the theory goes with Kagashionna.

Sorry I meant Hagashionna speed typing I thought I read that, before submitting.
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#387651 - 05/17/08 08:39 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Quote:


These are just my own thoughts as a Goju practitioner, take 'em or leave 'em.

Gekisai is actually alot more linear than pretty much every other kata, and (not that this matters neccessarily) it is not a koryu kata. Honestly gekisai has always struck me as being more like shorin ryu than any other kata.

Saifa is fairly unique in terms of application, there are a couple of things that aren't repeated in other kata.

Personally to me Seisan embodies the framework of Goju of any kata, but this is just subjective opinion, as it is one of my personal favorites.

While there are a ton of repeated sequences and techniques in Goju kata, there are also huge differences, if you compare Sepai and Seisan for example they seem to employ totally different strategies.

however, if you compare Seisan and Sanseiryu, they share many of the same techniques and they seem more similar and "hard" for lack of a better word.





Zach, might these differences not be explained by the hard/soft dichotomy of Goju ryu?
Has anyone ever looked and tried to divide goju into hard and soft by kata?
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#387652 - 05/17/08 09:05 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: CVV]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:

Looking at what the Chinese do now is imo not the defenite answer in researching karate 'gaps'. Take 2-handed pushing hand drills from CMA and compare to kakie. I think they might have the same origin but relating 2-hand push drills with a tensho flavor as the ultimate application of softness in Goju stuns me completely. Maybe I am just not 'advanced' enough but concluding that Miyagi did not understand the core principles of soft/hard enough to come up with 2 handed push drills makes me dizzy.




Looking at CMA is not definitive - I think the Okinawan arts have an element of uniqueness (see my blog article: http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/05/how-much-chinese-is-there-in-karate.html).

However I feel that most of the martial techniques have some distant lineage to CMA. I invite you to consider another of my blog articles: http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/05/karate-and-chinese-martial-arts-part-1.html.

I don't purport to say that "Miyagi did not understand the core principles of soft/hard enough to come up with 2 handed push drills". However I think it is fair to say that there is an aspect of CMA that might augment understanding of techniques in goju. After all, Miyagi had one perspective - he wasn't omniscient, regardless of his genius and personal ability. Others had and continue to have different perspectives. Examining different perspectives is always profitable, unless one adheres rigidly to the view that a "style" must be maintained at all costs (ie. it must not be "polluted" by outside influences).

Plus I think it is a fair bet that a lot of what Miyagi knew is lost: obviously when a master dies, he takes his understanding with him. The techniques might remain (ie. the "xing"/form) but sometimes not the full extent of the understanding (the "yi"/mind).
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#387653 - 05/17/08 09:05 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Shonuff]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


Zach, might these differences not be explained by the hard/soft dichotomy of Goju ryu?
Has anyone ever looked and tried to divide goju into hard and soft by kata?




Hmmm, I guess arguably the old adage about hard containing soft and soft containing hard would probably apply.

I do think on a philosophical level this is a nice way of looking at it, but on the other hand the kata are very different and i'm personally inclined to think they came from different ssytems originally.

I've seen people break them into broad categories of harder and softer.

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#387654 - 05/17/08 09:32 PM Re: By Jove I think they've got it! [Re: Zach_Zinn]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Has anyone thought to examine goju kata by reference to go/ju?

This has been done by many in the cluster H and M debate. Sorry to bore you with my blog entries (ignore this if I am), but consider my summary here: http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/05/origins-of-goju-kata.html.
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