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#387418 - 03/20/08 02:40 AM Full contact or point sparring??
GojuRyuboy13 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 538
Loc: U.S. of A.
Which do you perfer and why?

I have never been to a full contact tournament. I have seen videos but that's it. I might be able to go to one next month but I don't want to participate. I have been to two point sparring tournaments and participated in one. A waste of time and money I think. I got the experience if competeing but I got first place after sparring one guy. Come on, there was only three people in my division so I only got to fight one person. I was ready to just jump up and offer to pay to let me fight in the next weight class.

I didn't really like that point sparring tournament because some people lose the flavor of anything they have been trained and they stand there with their leg up and chambered ready to kick the second you get close enough.

I don't know, I don't like judging things but I'm just saying that the experience I got from the tournament wasn't good.
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#387419 - 03/20/08 05:46 AM Re: Full contact or point sparring?? [Re: GojuRyuboy13]
Ives Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
Full contact point sparring via Bogu system.
We wear head, chest and groin protectors. The contact is made full force.

After making contact in 'good waza conditions'(proper technique) a point is awarded.
Duration 2x 2 minute rounds (1minute extra when even).

So basically you can get hit full force several times, without points being awarded.
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Ives

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#387420 - 03/20/08 07:33 AM Re: Full contact or point sparring?? [Re: Ives]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Loc: York PA. USA
Contact for certain, although I have never competed in full contact. Point tourneys are the worst.
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#387421 - 03/20/08 09:43 AM Re: Full contact or point sparring?? [Re: MattJ]
tkd_high_green Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
We have a continuous point competition at our tournaments, which is one step up from stop point. For black belts, two 2 minute rounds. The nice thing is that it is continuous, which is more realistic, and more striking techniques are allowed than in Olympic or full contact sparring. The contact level is a bit harder than point as well, although we aren't trying to knock out the other person. Good for some nice bruises at least.

As far as lack of competition goes, get used to it. I rarely have a lot of competition at local tournaments. A four person division is huge. But thats what you get when you live in Vermont.

Laura

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#387422 - 03/20/08 11:42 AM Re: Full contact or point sparring?? [Re: GojuRyuboy13]
WhiteDragon11 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/07
Posts: 1165
Loc: Florida, United States
Quote:



I didn't really like that point sparring tournament because some people lose the flavor of anything they have been trained and they stand there with their leg up and chambered ready to kick the second you get close enough.





YES!!! Thankyou for adding that. I cant stand point-sparring because it doesnt prove anything, when it comes to martial arts. Its more of a balance competition, who can keep their leg up the longest. What martial art focuses on this? NONE... so whats the point, to get a medal?

I would definately prefer full contact. However, I have never participated in a full contact match, so this is more of a guess. I prefer medium contact, since this is what we do at my school. Personally, I dont like tournaments at all, since there are way to many rules added to it.

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#387423 - 03/20/08 11:56 AM Re: Full contact or point sparring?? [Re: WhiteDragon11]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Full contact is great until you get knocked out.

I've only ever been in one FC tourney and although I got KOed and my parents pulled me out of tournaments (I was 14 at the time) I'd recommend them to anyone interested.
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#387424 - 03/20/08 12:50 PM Re: Full contact or point sparring?? [Re: WhiteDragon11]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

I cant stand point-sparring because it doesnt prove anything, when it comes to martial arts. Its more of a balance competition, who can keep their leg up the longest. What martial art focuses on this? NONE... so whats the point, to get a medal?





While there is no question there is truth to point sparring often a game of tag, the point has been grossly overstated.

Personally I have not point sparred since the 80's but I can assure there were many tounaments that were no where near games of tag, it all depended on the organizer and often the center referee.

The concept was the blow had to be a fight ending/defining blow to count as a point, not a tap from a floppy round house as everyone loves to say.

As the sport grew and became more family friendly, there is no denying that in many circles point fighting was watered down to a game of tag, and thats the example everyone likes to reference when they completley dismiss a generation of combat sport.

That said, full contact is fine, but it's a false sense of combat as well. Getting tagged in the head with head gear and hand pads, is not really "full contact" it's full impact (kinda). Does it have value, of course but it's just another form of sport combat. It's as good or as bad as the people who are doing it.

Also, keep in mind point fighting was done with little or no padding back in the day and a medium strike to the head was as or more realistic to both fighters then a full contact strike with head gear and pads.

Personally I think either combat sport is fine when run by the right people or both can be junk if run by the wrong people.

I am just tired of hearing people say "I fight full contact" then walk onto the mat dressed like the stay puff marshmellow man.

-Kimo


Edited by Kimo2007 (03/20/08 12:50 PM)
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#387425 - 03/20/08 01:07 PM Re: Full contact or point sparring?? [Re: Kimo2007]
WhiteDragon11 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/07
Posts: 1165
Loc: Florida, United States
Well I guess I was talking about point sparring today. Since I didnt know how it originated.

"I am just tired of hearing people say "I fight full contact" then walk onto the mat dressed like the stay puff marshmellow man."

Nice simile

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#387426 - 03/20/08 02:07 PM Re: Full contact or point sparring?? [Re: Kimo2007]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:


I am just tired of hearing people say "I fight full contact" then walk onto the mat dressed like the stay puff marshmellow man.




haha, absolutely! While I love some nice solid contact in competition, the competitors have to understand how much damage their techniques can do, or else you see the usual swinging for the fences scraps.

I have nothing against point sparring- but I do have something against point-stop sparring. I simply fail to understand how it is useful. Afterall, not only is the whole one-hit ko philosophy flawed IMO, but trying to judge what is the first strong techinque to score, can be a nightmare for the judge/referee.

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#387427 - 03/20/08 03:05 PM Re: Full contact or point sparring?? [Re: Supremor]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

I have nothing against point sparring- but I do have something against point-stop sparring. I simply fail to understand how it is useful. Afterall, not only is the whole one-hit ko philosophy flawed IMO, but trying to judge what is the first strong techinque to score, can be a nightmare for the judge/referee.





I agree the format has it's draw backs, the worst being the tendency to stop after a perceived score, but that also is the fault of the referee.

Say I step in and reverse punch you to the head with a big Kiai and stop. Meanwhile you counter punch my head, while I am posing for my point.

Even if I got there first, a good referee would call it an exchange no point, because I stopped and didn't cover. A bad referee would give me a point because I got there first.

Is it difficult to judge, sure but so is basketball. Truth is if you are stingy with your points, it's generally not that tough to determine who won an exchange or who is the dominate fighter.

Now say you don't stop, well then you have a giving quarter issue, if I come in and land a hard blow, but I pull it, you have to give me quarter, and back off not come right in while I am open from extending a technique (no difference then class sparring).

Except in competition, that often doesn't happen, so you either need to go full contact or have some sort of break or stoppage.

Personally I like point fighting with stoppage. Real fights don't go 3-5 minutes, so how is that any more realistic?

The problem is we are simulating fighting, which is near impossible to do, no matter what rule set you use it's a combat sport.

I say just lock all the fighters in the gym and come back in an hour and see who is still standing, then hand him a trophy.
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#387428 - 03/20/08 05:11 PM Re: Full contact or point sparring?? [Re: Kimo2007]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
"I say just lock all the fighters in the gym and come back in an hour and see who is still standing, then hand him a trophy."

ahh yes, there can be only one.

i've competed in ippon kumite 3 times now and it has good and bad points as well. i like its focus on (im sorry in advance for saying this) the finishing blow, but i hate how the judges fail to recoginize anything other then a straight punch or kick. having a someone else call weather or not your attack was "good" can be frustrating as hell, theres only one real test for that. but no one wants to attend his classes.
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#387429 - 04/20/08 01:06 PM Re: Full contact or point sparring?? [Re: student_of_life]
TwistingKick Offline
Member

Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 194
Loc: UK (oxford)
I've competed in continuous point sparring, point-stop sparring and full contact. I did point-stop sparring a lot when i first started MA and i found it left me with quite a few bad habits when i started continuous point sparring. I've only had one full contact fight and although it didnt go too well i learnt so much from it and i think i have the bug now because i cant wait to have another one.
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#387430 - 08/02/08 05:38 AM Re: Full contact or point sparring?? [Re: Kimo2007]
KickingAngel16 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/30/08
Posts: 94
Loc: Dacula, GA
Quote:

Quote:

I say just lock all the fighters in the gym and come back in an hour and see who is still standing, then hand him a trophy.




Ha ha. I totally agree with that. It would be so much easier.
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If you're tired, kick some more. Your opponent most likely has extra kicks to spare on you.

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#387431 - 08/04/08 05:00 PM Re: Full contact or point sparring?? [Re: Kimo2007]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
I agree with some of Kimo's points. In fact, if you actually look at the rules of some of the tourneys it falls in line with what makes a good technique. For example I have been to point tournaments that do not necessarily penalize for dropping your opponent with a proper techinque. For example, just look at the rules in many open class tournaments about head shots. Light contact to the face and you are disqualified for causing redness/swelling and blood. That's fine, because in a real fight a broken/bloody nose, bloody lip, black eye, etc. will not stop a fight and you may pay for it on the counter attack. However, you can go harder to the sides of the head as long as you don't cause the head to "rock" back and forth. Shots to the temple and jaw can be utilized with proper technique to cause knockouts and drop you opponent without a rocking back of your opponent's head. Therefore, this may not necessarily be against the rules. Similar things can be found in many of the tourney rules to circumvent what may appear to be fouls but is actually good karate. Just look. Its really about what you want to gain from the activity.
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#387432 - 08/05/08 11:35 AM Re: Full contact or point sparring?? [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
I did a fair bit of competition, a good few years ago,

I started in semi contact, point stop sparring, then did a bit of semi contact continuos sparring, then did a bit of knockdown.

looking back they all had their challanges, if I were to compete again (which im not) or if my students wanted to have a go,

I would try to find a decent semi contact continuos tournament, preferably with a grappling element to submission.

In a sentance I found the -

point sparrig - very fast
continuos sparring - fast, hard work and painfull
knockdown - very painfull

it's not such a bad thing when done 'in perspective' IMO, the challange is good particulary for young students who want to have a go.

A few of my guys are looking to compete in something over the next couple of years so it's something im looking at.
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www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#387433 - 08/05/08 02:54 PM Re: Full contact or point sparring?? [Re: shoshinkan]
JMWcorwin Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 731
Loc: SoCal, USA
We do a progression of all these. Normal sparring night is continuous med. contact sparring. All contact allowed except sweeps to the front of the leg/knee and no face... head is all good. As you gain some experience the instructors will let the higher belts or lower belts with good technique to go harder and face allowed if mutually agreed by the two fighting.

At our toureys is point stop for all color belts. So, we do sometime train that in sparring class, but not much. Black belt tourney is continuous point for 3-5 minutes depending on how GM feels about the crop of would be's fighting. Black belts are allowed to mix it up at their discretion. We're all brothers after all. Only strikes to the knees or back of the head or groin are really out of bounds for obvious reasons.
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There are no PERFECT techniques, only perfect execution for the situation at hand. ~Corwin

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#387434 - 01/01/09 04:58 PM Re: Full contact or point sparring?? [Re: GojuRyuboy13]
Landus Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/05
Posts: 373
Loc: UK
I half wrote a reply to this but accidently closed it ROAR how annoying but I like this question as I've been pondering for a long time now; seeing this thread as made me realise somethings. Part of my college course is to design and create moving-image, the 'thousand word' idea about photograph has always intrigued me as I thought it would be great to achieve that with moving-image/film. I see point sparring as photography in a sense, and moving-image as full contact sparring.

I've never competed in full contact but have fought in inter-dojo point sparring comps. I find that point sparring is like chess, and every time I participate full-contact it does not feel so much like chess. I am now thinking that this is because I am not experience enough with full-contact sparring to see it as a much more prolonged version of chess, where a player may get 1 or more moves. As you may be able to tell I'm finding this very hard to discribe haha but I believe there are a lot of values in point sparring, and full contact.
I used to think very tactically about point-sparring and I do find this quite enjoyable. Point-sparring is just one of many extensions of the sport/art which is MA and like many things does not need follow realism. You coul look at point-sparring to represent the idea that 1 point scored could mean your death; to prevent that point being scored on you can be a very difficult, very challenging and altogether very satisfying thing.

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#387435 - 01/02/09 04:46 PM Re: Full contact or point sparring?? [Re: Landus]
stac3y Offline
Member

Registered: 12/29/08
Posts: 42
I compete in sport point tournaments regularly (non-continuous). I'd like to try continuous--when we spar in class we do it that way, with, at most, an acknowledgement and glove tap after an obvious point. I like being able to go long enough to develop a rhythm. But sport point is fine with me; though I've found that the definitions of "light to moderate contact" and "good karate technique" vary tremendously from judge to judge. Since most of the tournaments I go to are sanctioned by an organization that encompasses a multitude of styles, that's not surprising, though. And I figure it's a good learning experience to have to adjust, anyway. <G>

One person commented about sport point matches being a balance contest, with competitors balancing on one leg waiting to kick their opponents away. I've fought some women who try that, but haven't found it to be an especially effective strategy against a more versatile fighter.

The thing I least like to see in competition is when people drop all pretense of technique and just start brawling. I haven't seen this in intermediate or above, just in the beginner divisions, but it's still disappointing. It makes me wonder if the competitors are just so terrified that they lose all control of their bodies.

Stac3y
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#387436 - 03/05/09 11:02 AM Re: Full contact or point sparring?? [Re: stac3y]
steelwater Offline
On the Ansatsuken installment-plan

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 222
I agree with the poster that said it depends on the organizer and the judges. The last point sparring tournament I attended changed the rules from "light contact" to "no contact, only controlled strikes" because two competitors got mildly heated at each other and fought a little hard. It was a complete waste of money and all the competitors in the division was annoyed.

On the other hand, I attended a tournament in South Carolina where the only taboo part of the body was the front of the face and back of the head. The sides of the head were live, making the only real illegal technique a straight punch to the face. Even though it was point-stop sparring, I felt the intensity of the fight.

I for one am used to leaving the dojo bruised from point sparring. We usually start a sparring session with point-stop sparring to refine and hone technique under pressure. We don't even count points unless the session is geared toward tournament sparring. We then transition into continuous full impact sparring where we really don't pull our techniques. A lot of people usually sit this part of the session out.
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#387437 - 03/06/09 08:26 AM Re: Full contact or point sparring?? [Re: steelwater]
matt_mcg Offline
Member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 113
I compete in [and judge at] competitions fought under a form of semi-contact continuous rules. The actual level of contact can vary a fair bit between weight categories. We wear shoes, and fairly minimal protective gear, so controlled contact can still sting a bit.

I find that's about as hard a level of contact as I'd want to participate in regularly. As a super-heavyweight 'controlled' contact works out as 'contact hard enough to leave pretty nasty bruises but unlikely to do serious injury', and that's fine for me. I've done a little full-contact sparring in the past [boxing], and while it was fine as an occasional thing, I wouldn't want to be doing it regularly.

I don't really see what competing full-contact would really add for me. Or at least I can't see the benefits being great enough to persuade me to do it regularly.

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#387438 - 03/06/09 12:22 PM Re: Full contact or point sparring?? [Re: matt_mcg]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

I compete in [and judge at] competitions fought under a form of semi-contact continuous rules. The actual level of contact can vary a fair bit between weight categories. We wear shoes, and fairly minimal protective gear, so controlled contact can still sting a bit.

I find that's about as hard a level of contact as I'd want to participate in regularly. As a super-heavyweight 'controlled' contact works out as 'contact hard enough to leave pretty nasty bruises but unlikely to do serious injury', and that's fine for me. I've done a little full-contact sparring in the past [boxing], and while it was fine as an occasional thing, I wouldn't want to be doing it regularly.

I don't really see what competing full-contact would really add for me. Or at least I can't see the benefits being great enough to persuade me to do it regularly.




I think its a matter of what you want out of your training. If you are going full blast full power full everything all the time in training, then that is not a smart way to train fighting do matter what you are training for. Even the elite level UFC guys train with controlled contact. That is what the heavy bag, thai pads, and focus mitts are for, full power impact training on a regular basis. A true full contact sparring session would only be for testing something and not for regular training. If you see anyone training on a regular basis with full power in sparring run away quickly. They do not understand the methodology of smart and healthy training for any level of fighting or competition.
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#387439 - 03/06/09 12:50 PM Re: Full contact or point sparring?? [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Well put medulanet.
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"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#387440 - 03/06/09 07:21 PM Re: Full contact or point sparring?? [Re: matt_mcg]
TrueKarateKid Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/05/09
Posts: 9
I've never competed in full contact officially, but I have done it with some friends. While walking up in pads and all may not get the perfect feel for taking hits, it's far superior to point sparring in which you never really feel it. The pluses of full contact are that you learn to hit full force, and therefore will hit full force in a real fight. Someone who fights point sparring is constantly building the habit of pulling his punches, and, as a result of habit, may actually end up doing that in a fight even unintentionally. Yes, he may THINK that he could hit full force, but if he's trained to tap the opponent, he'll need to be consciously reminding himself to go all the way through on his techniques, as opposed to someone who has trained Full Contact who will do it naturally.

And the other plus to Full Contact is that you learn to take hits. As someone already said, if your covered in pads it isn't QUITE the same. However, you're still learning to deal with the impact, and depending on your school (boxing schools for example, do not use many pads) you're learning to deal with the pain of getting hit.It really toughens you up. Point sparring, you never get used to the feel of getting hit.

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#387441 - 03/11/09 10:35 AM Re: Full contact or point sparring?? [Re: GojuRyuboy13]
karl314285 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
hi,

First- agree totally w/ Kimo2007 and medulanet. As Kimo notes it depends on tourney and ring master, lost my 1st match as BB rank when (to my cool luck at US Open, Daytona back...well you may not have been born:) ) Superfoot Bill Wallace (he's shorter than I'd expected) Overruled and denied a 2pointer wheelkick to head because "I didn't see the head move enough I want more contact at this level"

Bagwork, preferably a used 100lb hanging (why used? there is usually a plastic bag of sawdust in a the mid of the stuffing and after its broken a slow gradation of resistance begins, soft at top-harder at mid-packed sawdust at bottom{great to condition shins elbows knuckles knees-IF ONE IS OLD ENOUGH-leading to my pontification)

The bones in a youth have not fully formed and cranial sutures not completely fixed, Body conditioning and thus FULL CONTACT impact for a youth is (in my limited medical experience) NOT GOOD (well ok, im a lersting sample of dane bramage and arthritic ugly knuckles)

Train well/train safe. Even a game of tag is teaching you Distance, Timing, Speed, Cadence, and the spinal reflex to strike before conscious thought. Peace. (Youth= 18-20)
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#430995 - 11/28/10 01:18 PM Re: Full contact or point sparring?? [Re: matt_mcg]
Landus Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/05
Posts: 373
Loc: UK
I'm looking to go in to continuous but so far really enjoy point sparring. I try to look at every hit as if it were a knife fight, and it's crucial to strike and not be struck. I find I have to think fast to better my opponent and I like the fierce concentration required. Early days yet, but I think both have really significant value

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#431063 - 12/07/10 11:16 AM Re: Full contact or point sparring?? [Re: Landus]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
I read so many times in the press about "Karate Champs" in the "Tag" competitions or as I like to call them "Tippy Tappy, Bouncy Bouncy, Strike, Score a Point and Scream Kumite" that is current with the WKA, WKF and other "Karate" organisation that got out of their depth in a real situation. And get defeated etc by a gang of youths, a Streetfighter or mugger etc

Atleast with Knockdown Karate you get to know what it sort of feels like to be in a real situation.

I've never heard of a Kyokushin Karateka that got defeated by a Gang of Youths, Streetfighter or a Mugger etc.
Continuous is sort of getting there but Full contact is the way forward.
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#431065 - 12/07/10 05:25 PM Re: Full contact or point sparring?? [Re: Dobbersky]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Well, as medulanet put it (over a year ago BTW lol!) it depends what you want out of training. If a person wants to take up Karate as a form of exercise, maybe the point sparring system might suit them better.

I don't think it's wise to always assume that point sparring = light contact. See the point sparring below as an example of full contact point sparring that is very much in the Japanese tradition of the ichigeki hissatsu:



Edited by Prizewriter (12/07/10 05:29 PM)
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#432372 - 05/13/11 08:09 AM Re: Full contact or point sparring?? [Re: Prizewriter]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Just Revisiting this post and agreed, full contact piont sparring is getting there, but Continuous and knockdown are the way forward.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2WxKA18K80

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-C4T4bOfriw

and of course, I couldn't not post this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YRdYZBnVtM

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iT-B3EjjBgk
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A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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