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#387116 - 03/23/08 10:38 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: jude33]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

A few skillfull powerfull boxers have been beaten by some one who used fitness to their advantage. .





In a sport combat application,fitness plays a much larger role then in a self defense situation.

I am not saying "don be fit" but there are many people out there who are too old, too small or have some other reason why they will not have the fitness advantage in most cases.

I wouldn't recommend these folks get in the ring, but there are plenty of ways they can still defend themselves.
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#387117 - 03/23/08 10:40 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Prizewriter]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

I refer to the overall condition of the body, the responsiveness of the muscles used in fight and flight and good reflexes




That great and I am all for it, but are you going to do when you are 80?

My point is there is much more to the equation then fitness.
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#387118 - 03/23/08 12:54 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Kimo2007]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


That great and I am all for it, but are you going to do when you are 80?





Hopefully at 80 I would still have some strength and conditioning from a lifetime of disciplined work.

In a SD situation at 80, I would also hope that I would not have to fight someone much younger and stronger in an empty hand battle. That would be another answer.

I don't give a lot of faith in 80 year olds having to fight empty handed, particularly if they are weak and frail. So I personally believe its moot point to bring that up - although I do understand what you're driving at.


Quote:


My point is there is much more to the equation then fitness.





I would agree with this, though I would add that self-defense also has a lot more to do with NOT going "hands on" either. Its my opinion that if staying safe means having to fight, it'd probably do a lot for our health if we didn't suffer a heart attack in the middle of it.

Who knows.

-John

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#387119 - 03/23/08 01:12 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Kimo2007]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA



I am not saying "don be fit" but there are many people out there who are too old, too small or have some other reason why they will not have the fitness advantage in most cases.




Who's too small? Isn't that what weight divisions are for? Besides, the modern boxing gym is much more welcoming of all shapes and sizes these days than the old school 'rocky' type gyms.
And as for age - Sigung Ip Ching is close to 80. Ip Chun is close to 84, but I don't really know much about him. Ip Ching still can scrap though, and the kind of energy you spend time cultivating in WC is VERY apparent when you roll with him. I don't know if that's exactly what most would qualify as fitness in old age, but it's far from frailty or sickness. I'd bet that more life-long boxers don't possess that kind of health due to all the hits that they take throughout their careers. I've also known some old guys who can still throw, even if they walk on a cane.

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#387120 - 03/23/08 01:38 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

Who's too small? Isn't that what weight divisions are for?




Clearly you are not understanding my point. There are no weight divisions in SD.
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#387121 - 03/23/08 01:49 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: JKogas]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

Its my opinion that if staying safe means having to fight, it'd probably do a lot for our health if we didn't suffer a heart attack in the middle of it.

Who knows.





Fitness no matter what age or size you are can only be a benifit to you in any circumstance.

Funakoshi was robbed (attempted) when he was in his 80's. If I recall the story correctly it was a well placed cane to the groin that allowed him to escape unharmed.

While I can only assume he was fit for a man his age, I would say his ability to defend himself was not his being more fit then his attacker.

Quote:

In a SD situation at 80, I would also hope that I would not have to fight someone much younger and stronger in an empty hand battle. That would be another answer.




You may hope, but it's the 80 year olds with all those Social Security Checks.

That said I have yet again pulled a thread completly off topic.
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#387122 - 03/23/08 03:53 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Kimo2007]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:







Quote:

In a SD situation at 80, I would also hope that I would not have to fight someone much younger and stronger in an empty hand battle. That would be another answer.




I can see your point. To my mind and personaly my goal is to get as far as I can reach at what I train.

Should I get mugged at 80 and still survive intact then
I more than likely would laugh. Could someone that age successfully defend themselves? I suppose if they keep their condition like the guy below they might have a better chance.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?doci...h&plindex=4

He is about 82 now.

I tend to harp on about him, be good to be his age and still capable.

Jude,

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#387123 - 03/23/08 08:29 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Kimo2007]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
You're right Kimo, I didn't understand what you were getting at.
I'm simply trying to point out that the 'fitness advantage' that you mentioned is subjective from individual to individual, and can be trained within reason at any size or age level. Naturally where fitness would NOT be an advantage (ie a 140 lb. guy vs. a 250 lb), a much higher degree of technique - and probably luck - will have to be utilized. Think we're agreed on that.

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#387124 - 03/24/08 01:54 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I agree with Kimo2007 and others that in SD or street fighting fitness is not as important as tenactiy and continued aggression in the assault.

Boxers are in tremendous shape to go multiple rounds but when they can get hit solid they can take a knee, grab and hold w/o getting thrown or take a 8 count, this doesn't exist in SD. I hsve to admit there is some fighting out of trouble in boxing and some in Martial art classes also but boxing does this to the extrem as does Judo/JJ, I believe is good.

But I am pro fitiness because your technique stay sharper if you are not winded. But you have to admit striking arts especially boxing on the ground are out there prime element inclose or on the ground.

WingChun most Martial arts overall arsenal is better, but the use of these weapons often is the prime advantage of boxing they have few but they use them all the time in well trained timed combinations. Not that Wc doesn't in its wooden dummy drills but dummies don't hit back.
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#387125 - 03/24/08 08:14 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Neko456]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Glen McCrory, a former world professional crusierweight boxing champion, intervened to save a doorman and a friend from a mob who were attacking him a few years back.

He was caught up in the brawl, and was hit over the head with a weapon (he was hit with a metal bar). He credits his conditioning and experience in boxing as allowing him to stay upright despite taking a terrible blow to the head.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article46809.ece

This is the only article I could find relating to the story.

I understand that in a SD situation a boxer can't take a knee or the ref isn't there to jump in. But boxing conditions a person to deal with being hit with a full blooded punch(es). It de-sensitizes a person to the trauma, both physical and mental, of taking a full blooded hit (should they get hit).

I have seen people sparring for the first time and taking a good shot. Some of them shut down mentally (I did the first time it happened to me), and try to escape while their opponent is still attacking them.

Imagine if the first time a person such as that got hit properly was in a SD situation, and not in a gym. What happens if they mentally shut down in a dangerous situation like that?
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