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#387176 - 04/13/08 04:01 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Neko456]
Seiken Offline
Member

Registered: 03/29/08
Posts: 131
Loc: USA
Wonderful thread... the following article might be of interest to some.

http://home.vtmuseum.org/articles/crescione/wcvsboxing.php

Personally I see more similarities between every martial art than most would like to admit, especially boxing, so its almost pointless for me. The differences I note between Boxing and WC is boxing has been refined in the ring/gym by some good athletic human specimens... WC, well... I have only seen one or two famous WC guys that were in shape, and still not Boxing shape.

Also, I think most people who talk about Boxing have no clue how advanced and efficient the system is. Same goes for WC, Karate, MMA, BJJ... so much going on that unless the best of the best face each other, its speculation. But its not the best that make the system efficient, its the beginners.. or its useless right? But at least in boxing we can see extremely talented, strong, young individuals using easy, efficient techniques with great success.

The argument always seems to end up WC is not used correctly by most so its not fair to compare? But then when WC is described correctly, in action it looks like what?... Boxing!

On the clinch, I personally feel the Boxing clinch is superior to most, but I learned that the boxing clinch wasnt a set position but a method of control. Basically making it a formless clinch, developing through experience. IMO, the boxing clinch covers the traps and chi sao that WC would, but more efficient.. less movement, just as much sensitivity, and once again, refined through actual fighting.

Footwork, I still have yet to see any WC use footwork other than running in, or step slide. Emin Boztepe, William Cheung, Leung Ting... they know the whole system, touted as the best... they still dont do it, at least on film. Therefor, cannot be considered as part of the system, regardless of what you WANT to do with it, if its not taught, its not there!

Nothing can stay hidden in the information age, especially the effectiveness or lack thereof in a martial arts system.
BTW.. im not biased, like JKogas I find more and more things work the better my delivery system for that range is. I love all martial arts

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#387177 - 04/13/08 11:36 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Seiken]
Seiken Offline
Member

Registered: 03/29/08
Posts: 131
Loc: USA
Emin Boztepe explaining and demonstrating punching power in Wing Chun. He even compares boxing and karate style punching/power delivery.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipfAK224798&feature=related


Edited by Seiken (04/13/08 11:39 PM)

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#387178 - 04/14/08 12:48 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Seiken]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Interest demo but I notice that he didn't strike/tap the young man with a Boxing or Karate strike he states that Boxing uses 40-60% and Trad Karate 40-50% of the body in striking. But the step through shoulder butt he spoke of we all know does deleiver nearly 100% of body becauses its stepping through his body. A punched doesn't work that way. Of course we know that most systems of Martial art uses a shoulder butt so its not exclusive to WC.

But people know that if you just use WC's three points and shoulder snap vs. the full torque punches of Karate or Boxing which will hit harder and not just move the guy backwards but fold him.

What we noticed in similar test with each taking and giving body shots Boxers hit harder, Karateka next, then Wing Chun all three using foot work. WC have the quickest,shortest deleivery systems then Boxing and next Karate. Unless you are talking head, shoulder or hip butts then Karate or WC are the shortest.

Each has its advantages. This may sound like scakraledge for traditionalist but when U merge the methods I found that striking is enhanced at any range U can strike in.


Edited by Neko456 (04/14/08 12:53 AM)
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#387179 - 04/19/08 11:07 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Neko456]
GansuKid Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 36
Well comparing WC to boxing is the same as comparing apples to oranges.

Seiken wrote:

“The argument always seems to end up WC is not used correctly by most so its not fair to compare? But then when WC is described correctly, in action it looks like what?... Boxing!”

& I still have yet to see any WC use footwork other than running in, or step slide.”

I disagree… Having boxed at the Kronx gym in Detroit and faced a few golden gloves in my day as well as played with some serious WC’’ers (for the recorded I don’t do WC but my friend does )


Apples to oranges. The reason why you haven’t seen anyone (who’s considered an expert) use boxing footwork is because WC isn’t boxing. Emin Boztepe doesn’t move like a boxer, he moves like someone who’s an expert in WC. (as expressed in the video link given recently) Also I think its safe to say that he could hang with most professional boxers in his weight division if pressed.

Is he good enough to hang in the top ten percent of the pro class in his weight division? (Who in MMA is?…. none that I know…

Also, who in boxing “ In his weight division of course” is good enough to hang with Boztepe using San Shou rules? Again, none that I know….

Boxing is great, but boxing is boxing. One of the fundamental flaws in martial arts (especially in the western viewpoint) is that “if it doesn’t look like boxing then its not efficient or effective. That’s a nebbish an un knowing viewpoint…..



The last part of this post is written because I think this thread has been propagated because of MMA’s “new found appreciation of Boxing”

To the un initiated, due to MMA’s “new found appreciation of boxing” …. At least on the internet…. Young acolytes think boxing is all that and a bag of chips. Yet the great strikers of MMA hardly use any boxing in the striking. They don’t use boxing foot work either…. So we should throw that notion out too.

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#387180 - 04/19/08 04:15 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: GansuKid]
Seiken Offline
Member

Registered: 03/29/08
Posts: 131
Loc: USA
I really dont think its safe to say Emin would last a round with a good pro boxer in his weight division. Unless hes trained enough in boxing.

The subtle nuances of a good boxer are just as in depth as any martial art. Except these guys actually fight. Emin just says he fights, no one has seen anything but a middle aged William Cheung fall to the ground with Emin trying to punch him. Boxing handles all the principles other martial arts preach but more efficiently IMO. Why more efficient? Because they actually fight. Most people who disagree with boxing efficiency KNOW they would get whooped by a boxer. On that note, it doesnt count if your a TKD or Wing Chun guy pretending to be a boxer and losing against a buddy of yours who does something else... this junk is popping up everywhere.

We dont think because it doesnt look like boxing its ineffective, we just know when good boxers fight the d34d1y the boxer wins. Everything is effective at some point for some reason, especially when used as intended.


Any effective principles Wing Chun has Western Boxing covers it but with more efficiency. Why? Because they actually fight. Its quite simple really.

On top of that, the much overlooked training methods of boxing develop skill quicker and with a higher degree of applicability.

Take the speed bag for instance. Trains centerline, chain punching, backfist and hammerfist, elbow strikes when your advanced enough, maybe even headbutts if your that good.

Basic anecdotes every trainer shouts is no different than WC theory on paper... throw your punches down the middle, sit down on your punches, punches in bunches, etc.. Except ineffective theories have been weeded out through thousands upon thousands of REAL fights for over a century.

I have nothing against WC, but... it seems to neglect the one thing thats is forever important. The human body. Much happens that you have no control over when all breaks loose.

http://www.drlam.com/A3R_brief_in_doc_format/adrenal_fatigue.cfm#2
http://www.rmcat.com/page17.html

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#387181 - 04/19/08 07:52 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Seiken]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I agree with Seiken Emin Boztepe under boxing rules against a good boxer wouldn't stand much of a chance but Boxing under WC rules Emin would dominate a golden glove Boxer bc once inside the clinch sticky leg, head butts, elbows, knees, throws, standing chokes and take downs. A Boxer wouldn't know what to do with that. Emin is very skilled but it pends whose the Shark in or out of water.

I don't base his skills level on his disgraceful attack on Master W. Cheng he had his reason and his reputaion survived that tells you how well thought of old man Cheng is.

I also disagree though MMA fighters stance is a little different they usually give creidt to their hands to western boxing no matter what orginal style they 1st trained. Now few are great or even good boxers but just the idea they can box seems to be enough.

WC is more full spectrum then Boxing and probably better all around training in that its more self defense orientated. But in boxing range WCers better get to the clinch unless they can take the boxers legs out. This is not a shot at WC, it is what I feel and teach my guys to do against a boxer and I usually show them why, I've studied my art for 30 years.

A man has to know his limitations facing the truth helps you over come it.

At kicking range, trapping range/grabbing punching??, clinching knee/elbow range and GF range boxing is weak but at punchng range they are the sharks. Just mo.


Edited by Neko456 (04/19/08 08:02 PM)

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#387182 - 04/20/08 10:59 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Neko456]
GansuKid Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 36
Seiken Wrote:

“I really don’t think its safe to say Emin would last a round with a good pro boxer in his weight division.

The subtle nuances of a good boxer are just as in depth as any martial art. Except these guys actually fight. Emin just says he fights, no one has seen anything but a middle aged William Cheung fall to the ground with Emin trying to punch him.”


Sorry bro……I'll have to disagree….Because I really do think its safe to say that Emin could hang with your average pro boxer. A “good” pro boxer is in the top ten percent. Just because you’re a pro boxer doesn’t mean you’re of quality. During my days at the Kronx I'd seen a couple of boxers turn pro and they sucked!

Hopefully you’re not basing your opinions on some film footage seen on the Internet?

Hopefully you’re basing your assertions on personal experience.

Just wondering? Have you sparred with Emin or others that are recognized close to his skill. Have you boxed in any quality gyms; Maybe boxed in amateur golden gloves? If so, I’ll take you’re your words with more clarity and meaning.

I personally have boxed a few golden gloves and I have personally sparred against some skilled WC’ers from IP linage. As I see it (yep…it’s my opinion only) Apples and oranges (sport vs martial art) and dependent based on the person individual skill etc.. (Its cool if we disagree such is the spice of life.......

I'm just wondering "are you on this boxing kick because of MMA’s “new found appreciation of Boxing?"


Edited by GansuKid (04/20/08 11:01 AM)

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#387183 - 04/20/08 06:28 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: GansuKid]
Seiken Offline
Member

Registered: 03/29/08
Posts: 131
Loc: USA
Fair enough, I respect your opinion.

Boxing kick? No, Ive had a heavy bag hanging in my dining room and a speed bag in my shed for years before I even heard the term MMA or UFC. My father, my uncle, my grandfather were all boxers. My grandfather sparred with ray robinson(This is where he got his name Sugar from the newspaper) when he was fighting(amateur union as featherweight) a Canadian boxer here a LOOONG time ago. Im not claiming to be all knowledgeable though, so I wouldnt get your panties in a twist over it.

Never sparred with Emin, but I have sparred with plenty of people from plenty of backgrounds,WC and boxing included. Ive been training 19 years in various arts. My main art has been Karate, but I guess in the end you would call what I do a personal system, not unlike JKD. Im just your average guy, who trains and loves all types martial arts.

Its pretty annoying this MMA thing, not because its not enjoyable or worth it, but people for some reason think the fountain of youth has been found. Because I wrestled in school I must of done it because of the UFC eh? And boxing was never as big as it was until the MMA craze right? lol

Thing is, Emin claims to have hundreds of undefeated fights, including knife fights :/ ... and the fact that his only (poorly executed) fight ever documented was with someone twice his age, and not a mark was on either fighter after the altercation, everyone who has publicly talked about the incident has said the same thing, except for Emin himself. Nothing against Emin, I dont know him personally, but what should I go by? A real fight he was in? Or his staged demonstrations?

It really dont matter though, theres more to boxing than throwing punches. I would even put a good boxer into chi sao with money on the boxer. Not because I dont think WC is ineffective or not good, I just think the art of boxing is being sadly overlooked and the nuances of the art are not being recognized by the general public and even martial artists alike. My general case is, Boxing and Wing Chun are more similar than anyone thinks, but boxing took it to the next level years ago on a extremely large and public base. They fought, refined techniques, refined theories, etc..

Listen, im not claiming to be some WC or boxing master. But the people who are recognized in those fields and by their peers as being the best have information and articles all over the media now. So, when a WC instructor tells you exactly what the system is, you have to take their word for it. Cross referenced with boxing your going to find alot of the principles that are claimed to make WC superior, boxing has it, except more refined under real conditions.


Boxers and Wing Chunnners all claim to be effective and capable of fighting to a win. Boxers get in there and get it done, Wing Chunners always seem to get in there and lose. And the fact that all WC people will tout how those people werent doing Wing Chun makes me believe even more that WC cannot be used as claimed when the pooper drops log. Theory has to be taken back to the drawing board when the testing is done. Ive never seen WC pass a test yet. I wish it would, because in theory it is unbeatable.

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#387184 - 04/21/08 10:55 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: GansuKid]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
This is what I have a problem with, people that put others on on a pedastal.

No I haven't sparred with Emin. Yes I have sparred with boxers plenty of Golden gloves and my brother was a Pro Boxer sparred with him often. I've sparred some pretty good WCer's also. But none at Emin or Cheng level.

You mentioned boxers at the Kronks turning pro not being good, you don't get a chance to turn Pro without someone putting some money up. And they don't put money in your career unless you WIN, you don't have to be a great boxer technique wise to win, just a tough fighter and you keep winning more then you lose. Talk about something you know not what you assume. I'm not talking just the Kronks gyms this is boxing business 101 period.


I gave Emin his prop under self defense or WC rules Emin would dominate a Boxer imo, if he could take his legs out or got into a clnich and worked his elbows, knees and sticky legs, throws./takedowns.

This is only my opinion but its based on being the pits with these two disciplines.

I just mentioned the Cheng vs. Emin event and my feeling about it because it happened and was mentioned before in this thread. It definitely wasn't something to brag about.

WC is good but under boxing rules I still believe Emin or most pure WCer would get his lunch brought to him. Fighting with a 1/3 of his arsenal and the boxer full out go figure.
Thats all I'm saying swicht the rules and he got a good chance of wining if he could work his advantage.

Bottom line you have your opinion I have mines, based on my experince.


Edited by Neko456 (04/21/08 10:59 AM)
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