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#387146 - 03/25/08 09:48 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

John, basically what I am saying that there is little correlation between the way real physical violence seems to go down, and the stuff people do in the dojo/gym/whatever.





I would do you one further and say that there is NO ďone wayĒ that real physical violence goes down, other than it is 1) Physical and 2) Violent. It is my opinion that those things and everything else can be prepared for. Thatís all weíre doing bro.

Would you label me a ďsportĒ guy by any chance? Iím just trying to see where youíre coming from.


Quote:


In the end ALL (everything from MMA to the SCA) training is anachronistic to real violence, if it wasn't it wouldn't be training anymore.





How so? Iím curious to hear your take.


Quote:


Anyway, i'm not sure what else to say, I respect your opinions greatly, but I feel you just want to turn this into a conversation where we insist that wing chun is simply inferior for self defense, not only do I not agree, I think you're being as doctrinaire in that appraisal as the quote that started the thread.





Then youíve simply failed to understand what Iím saying. I didnít say ďwing chunĒ doesnít work. I said that most of the wing chun that I have ever seen when compared to the boxing that I have seen, has had inferior training methods. That would be MY opinion based on what I have observed, and that is beyond dispute. When I traveled, I checked schools out all the time, wherever I happened to be. After a while, you begin to see the same things repeated over and over, regardless of locale. You begin to think itís universal. Of course, Iím not saying that either. Again, Iím merely providing my opinion based upon my experiences and observations. Nothing more, nothing less.

I find it odd however that many others in the know have experienced exactly the same things. These people Iíve spoken with live across the US and the world. Of course at the end of the day, itís nothing but more opinions. They are like noses.

But I believe you may have missed other things I have said as well. Just to be fair; I have mentioned in several posts using the same tools as wing chun. Sure I keep it simple, but Iíve used trapping and do all the time. Iíve used chain punching. All we have are tools at the end of the day. Itís a matter of how functionally we develop them, IMO. Iíve said that time and again.


Quote:


Conversations like this always end up with each side painting what is in reality a wide spectrum of practices with one brush, "wing chun" is not a single entity anymore than boxing is.





Of course, but conversation is exactly what these forums are all about. Thatís all weíre doing here. Iím not arguing with you so much as presenting my opinions. Youíre doing the same thing. The idea is to continue to do this in order to expel misconceptions and to further clarify what each side of this debate is saying, so that we might paint a clearer picture.

Iím not here to say that you or anyone else is ďwrongĒ. More often, I end up having to dispel misconceptions that others have about ME or, my personal approach to training. Somehow people always jump to the conclusion that ďIím just a sport guyÖ

Anyway. Cheers.

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#387147 - 03/25/08 10:08 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: JKogas]
GansuKid Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 36
For the most part I would agree with people who say that in "general" Boxer's are better than Wing Chun'ers. However I've seen the oppisite too. I've seen some Wing Chun people that were very good and most boxers that I've seen could stand against either... (unless they could integrate kicking and take downs. Something most boxers can't do... They can Clinch real good but.....

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#387148 - 03/25/08 11:09 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: GansuKid]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I believe that a boxer clinch leaves too much room for knees and elbows, the revised MMA or Judo/Greco Wrestling clinch is closer and holds the elbows in better. In this close WC would have an advantage imo.

And I believe Jokgas WC/JKD training aids his evaluation of which Clinch or trappng works best from him. He had to start from a base.

Most boxers advantage is in quicker footwork, power and diverse angles of punches especially hooking techniques at the corner of center line. WC handles most heavy straight techniques well in my opinon.

Its my opinion WC is the better street art if the guys any good at all, so I agree with ZZ if trained properly.

I never really seen many pro boxers street fight thats rare because their gambling on valuable goods. I didn't see it but Tyson is just a poor case and a exception.

But I have seen ex-golden gloves street fight quick, fast and effective the are subject to holds, sweeps, throws or techniques they are unfamilar with. WCist are familar with most of these method.

A boxers quickness, precision and power is his strength, limited view of what could be is his flaws IMHO.
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#387149 - 03/26/08 07:31 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Neko456]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
From what I'm seeing, it depends on the type of clinch that a boxer does as to whether or not he's vulnerable. It also depends on the person doing it. The double overhook is a common clinch in boxing, and its risky because you give up the inside/center position with it (however it a wrestlers world, that's a salto).

Funny how the longer I've wrestled and boxed, the more I'm seeing the utility of certain trapping scenarios, whereas before I couldn't pull it off no matter what against either type of player.

I believe the reason for that is because I have more depth in the three delivery systems that I talk so much about. Without these delivery systems in place, all you're doing is collecting "moves". As has been said by others, moves are like bullets, delivery systems are the guns. If you don't have a decent gun, just training moves would be the equivalent of picking up bullets and throwing them at someone. And THAT is the primary reason why I believe the wing chun that I've observed doesn't fly. What it all falls down to is that people are basically putting the cart in front of the horse when it comes to training. From my perspective, this is particularly true with the majority of non-western martial arts.

Now that doesn't mean that is always the case. Again, this is just from my own observations, though many, many others describe the same things.

And it isn't that these systems can't "work". Hell, I'm getting some Silat to work that I never thought could in a million years (and which I used to practice for years, like everyone else did - using dead patterns). They definitely can. But again the key IMO is, what foundation are you operating from?

Using the "generic MMA" structure provides the three core delivery platforms that I believe should be firmly in place as fundamentals. And you don't even have to be world class (though it helps ). If you had basic boxing, basic wrestling and a basic ground game (jiu-jitsu), these other arts would DEFINITELY come more alive.

And to quote Dennis Miller, "But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong."


-John

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#387150 - 03/26/08 12:19 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: JKogas]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I also feel that most boxers stand too straight subjecting themselves to reaps, sweeps and throws. The purpose is to hide their chin on your shoulder or place weight upon you when they clinch which is prime for the above actions. The other Clinches even the Judo clinch one only needs to drop a hand to check the knee and they are loaded but away so you have to move in to reap.

I agree that the more stable your platform the more you can add options. I find it amusing that you have strayed from JKD and yet come to the same conclusion that Silat/Kali works if applied properly. I also find it strange that one that profuse so much to live training can still be able to apply techniques from a dance/Silat patterns. Thats open minded good imo.

When you say traps are you meaning checks, like placing your glove on a guys arm so he has to strike around it or pull away to strike? Or acutal grabs and holds so you can strike or manuerver?

WC wider option of what could be gives it the nod in SD to me. Put both in a ring gloved under rules is like asking a dolphin to fight a great white, its the boxers enviroment but I think you should train in gloves against live continous assaults.

When I talk boxer I'm talking pure boxers not just a delivery system, just like there would be a difference in a WC man that practice BJJ or Thai boxing he would have a inside outside or outside med range game.

Any additional training gives both an added advantages.

When you look at how long it takes to able to use each principle boxing has an advantage and WC is considered a quick learned Gung-fu. In 6-9 months you got a fair boxer, WC guy would be just learning his application, imo.


Edited by Neko456 (03/26/08 12:21 PM)
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#387151 - 03/26/08 12:34 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

John, basically what I am saying that there is little correlation between the way real physical violence seems to go down, and the stuff people do in the dojo/gym/whatever.




I cant quite understand that statement. Why?
Have you ever heard of animal day? My training is so I dont (or at least mimimise the chance to) get injured if attacked. Exceptions given but keep them to a minimum.
If you google Geoff Thompson there might be more

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?doci...h&plindex=0

If you cant see the correlation then what exactly are you expecting? Why exactly do you train?
It would be good if that was explained in detail?
Surely if such training isnt covered in any manner then it is then up to the individual to seek out someone like Geoff Thompson and train with them?


I think the problem I have with things like wing chun is when I see a top practioner in a MMA competiton not using any form of trapping or anything that remotely looks like wing chun as per the video I posted in the karate thread.

Then when I ask why? different answers?

Jude

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#387152 - 03/27/08 11:15 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: jude33]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Quote:

Quote:

ZZ stated - John, basically what I am saying that there is little correlation between the way real physical violence seems to go down, and the stuff people do in the dojo/gym/whatever.





I cant quite understand that statement. Why?
Have you ever heard of animal day? My training is so I dont (or at least mimimise the chance to) get injured if attacked.

If you cant see the correlation then what exactly are you expecting? Why exactly do you train?
It would be good if that was explained in detail?

I think the problem I have with things like wing chun is when I see a top practioner in a MMA competiton not using any form of trapping or anything that remotely looks like wing chun as per the video I posted in the karate thread.

Then when I ask why? different answers?

Jude



------------------------
ZZ - I think that MMA is pretty close to real fighting without the violence and intent to do real serious damage. It's explosive and surprising that even skill fighters if they make a mistake can be taken out with a combination. I do agree it doesn't have the element of survival as a priority, viciousness, intent and vendendata that self defense has but it's pretty darn close for training purpose to range that maybe required. In saying this I see your point also close but not really.

Jude33 I think that MMA has its own style of fighting its hard to work only WC principles against multiple method of assault, I mean you maybe using a Bong-Sau to deflect but your counter still looks like boxing. I think it's hard to use any 1 system in a MMA ring even Karate or Kung-fu looks like a slugfest into a takedown because thats what done, if you don't want to punch it out.

I mean really MMA boxing looks like a hybred version of boxing the stance is different to protect against leg kicks and take downs. Not to mention infighting is totally different so its not just Wing Chun that changes once in the MMA ring.


Edited by Neko456 (03/27/08 11:18 AM)
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#387153 - 03/27/08 04:26 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Neko456]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
JK, just curious, are you of the opinion that old time bare knuckle boxing was a less refined, and less effective version of modern boxing or just different because of the different rules but equal?
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#387154 - 03/27/08 04:49 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Stormdragon]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Rules make the fight I have no doubt watching the old boxing masters that todays Pro boxers are more refined as any art it does get better technically. But does that mean that the modren spoiled pampered boxing stars could fight 30-40-70-90 rounds with someone that knocked you down stood over you to knock you down again.

You can see why groundfighting kicking, bitting, butting, spitting and scrachting use to be a part of old world boxing hell it was the only way to get up!

Refine is the key word here I think todays boxers are more refine, could they fight with the old guys, pending whose rules the match was govern by.

Imagine 20-30-40-70-90 rounds bare knuckles hell I quit I'm from the 21st Century a sissy compared to those GIANTs 70 rounds hell thats a life time of beat down, hey I'm tired just thinking about that many rounds.


Edited by Neko456 (03/27/08 04:50 PM)
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#387155 - 03/28/08 11:25 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Neko456]
donchisau Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73
Lots of good stuff about training etc but so far no one is really talking about wing chun. wing chun isnt shapes. its not tan,bong, chain punch etc. Wing chun is about how to use the body. I know everyone thinks they know wing chun but there are large parts of the method missing. Most videos out there are just using wing chun shapes. Most wing chun that is taught is just the external shapes with maybe some lip service paid to body unity. Every thing is done to train speed and trap yet you almost never see any videos of this training being used against trained resisting people. You usally see something that looks like bad kickboxing. The reason is that they have only trained the external shapes.

Wing Chun is meant to be very mobile ,loose and relaxed. How often do you see wing chun done in this manner. Usually all you see is a static posed man sau stance and then forward stepping with fast chain punches followed by some type of follow up usually and elbow or a low kick. This application of wing chun will always have a problem when dealing with trained fighters whether they be boxers or MMA types.

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