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#387106 - 03/20/08 11:51 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
Triddle Offline
Member

Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 129
Loc: Australia
Hello everyone

Firstly I'll start by saying that it is my personal belief that training in boxing will make you a better fighter than training in wing chun in most cases, by most cases I mean your average martial arts hobbyist. I trained wing chun a few years ago and boxing immediately after and though I trained Wing Chun for longer I felt I learned more in boxing, infact boxing was absolutely revolutional for me as a martial artist. I felt like boxing took everything I knew and built on it in an amazing way, I can honestly say I learned more about fighting during my short time in boxing than 6 years of TKD. Though I didn't actually learn TO kick or knee or whathave you in boxing, I learned so much about every aspect of my martial arts just through the boxing training methods. Perhaps my opinion is biased, but here goes anyway. Also note that I'll be talking largely about my own experiences here, but my experience in boxing was nothing exceptional I don't believe, just the typical old coach in a dodgy little gym. Not that my coach wasn't great, but you know what I mean.

It has been said that Wing Chun and other styles are too dangerous to train full on. Though this is true in a sense, I feel there is a lot less truth in it than there is made out to be. The basic techniques can be applied in a similar way to boxing without seriously injuring anyone. Generally in boxing sparring you do not go full out, believe it or not. In boxing FIGHTS you go full out, but in sparring it's very common to not just beat the tar out of your partner, or else no boxers would live past 20. The same thing can be applied to any martial art, aside from things which are manipulating joints or whatever, then it's just like wrestling, be careful when you apply it and tap out when it's applied on you. Medium contact sparring, as seen regularly in boxing is not going to be a big issue regardless of what style you're doing, when it becomes full contact you need a lot of control, as seen in boxing fights, i.e. A referee who stops the fight when someone is getting pummeled as well as two guys on the side who can 'throw in the towel'.

The massive advantage boxers have is that they regularly train with medium contact and the high level of simplicity of what they train, boxing training produces the best punchers, simply because they punch more often than other styles of training, it's not that one style of punching is better than another or anything like that, it's a simple matter of the more you punch the more punch you pack. It's true that limited background boxers lack the ability to kick, but I'll be damned if they don't make up for it with excellent footwork, speed and ability to rain down the blows.

One thing boxing teaches better than anything I've seen is to string your punches together. It's true that wing chun teaches this to a large extent, with chain punching and whatnot, but boxing teaches it in a way most wing chun instructors will refuse to. When I started boxing my coach would get angry at me for not laying in to people when I got the opertunity, I'd have the old fella at the side of ring yelling "HIT HIM TRISTAN KEEP [censored] HITTING THE [censored]!" and I learned to just keep seeing the openings of someone who is trying to back away and cover up, and learned how to exploit those chances right up until you're broken appart. Once the oponent is on the defensive a good boxer can demolish a man, which is one of things that needs controling by the ref. This completely changed the way I fight, I used to get combos going and whatnot, but boxing taught me to see an opening and before I even realise I've seen it the arm is on the go. What's more is that it took practically no time to learn this, you either do it or you lose, and losing hurts.

The footwork I learned in boxing was great for me, boxing made me into a much more mobile fighter, my coach hit me when I wasn't moving enough, training like that simply works. He'd get me on the mits and at first I'd have a tendancy to stand still and whack, then *bonk* he'd pop me one on the nose or forehead and say "Move your feet!". Note that this wasn't a drill in moving the feet, this was just practicing punching, but the way he made me move around while doing this really helped. I used to be good enough at dodging an incoming attack from dodging training, but boxing taught me to always be ready to move. No standing there punching drills, whenever we did ANYTHING we were ready to move and dodge and bob and weave.

The most important thing really was the ability to take hits, I mean I'd been hit quite a lot before I started, bound to have been in martial arts training, but in higher contact training you learn to really get pummeled and stay in the fight, the first time I sparred in boxing I thought I'd be alright you know, I wasn't too bad, but the guy I was sparring was good, and he hit me, but he didn't then STOP hitting me like it had been in the past, oh no, he just kept on hitting. He didn't pummel the hell out of me or anything, he was being nice since I was new, but he'd back me into corners and give me a fair go, and when I did manage to get him I wasn't able to string combos together in such a way as he was, and ontop of that he couldn't seem to care less that I had hit him, I appologised the first time I got a real good whack on him and he just looked puzzeled, probably wondering what kind of sissy I was "Appologising for punching me in the face? Ha!". I also liked the confined area of the boxing ring, you've got no where to run, you either dodge or hurt, none of that continuous backpeddling.

Basically it teaches you to deal with real fighting, though it's true there are a lot of rules to the fighting, it feels a lot more real than low contact sparring, it teaches you to deal with the pressure of a fight quite well and to fight without thought.


Now I know you're all thinking I praise boxing a little too highly, but I feel the cons of boxing are blatantly obvious, and there is no need for me to go through them in great detail. So this is essentially the cons part of my argument where I point out a couple of things for you to keep in mind;

Boxing doesn't teach you to look for anything but punches and openings for punches.

Boxing doesn't teach you ANY wrestling at all.

Boxing doesn't teach you to use various weapons (kicks, knees elbows etc) Though I will say it does help you learn to use them well if you already know how to throw them.

Wing Chun does teach you a much greater variety of things than boxing, it's certainly true. But I believe boxing will produce a higher quality fighter in a shorter period of time, since there is so much less to try to learn, you just perfect the absolute basics. If you give it enough time though, eastern style martial arts do have a lot more to teach. However I feel that boxing style training does a lot better job of producing your basic fighter, of course if other styles employed the same training methods as boxing then I'm not sure what would happen.

In conclusion I feel that boxing has a lot to offer any fighter, though boxing wont make you a complete and well rounded fighter, I think it can teach some things that other styles simply fail to teach. I'm not sure how great one would be if you just training boxing and nothing else, but I think boxing is a great compliment to any style because it teaches the things which it does teach so very very well. I believe it's especially useful for someone with a base in other martial arts, it's usefulness on it's own I can't vouche for as I had been in martial arts for some time when I took it up, but it certainly did a lot for me.

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#387107 - 03/21/08 08:22 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Triddle]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I agree with everything you stated from the waist up boxing is superior to Wing-Chun in producing a application fighter.

But I have a slight difference on any Martial art being practices with intensity of mild contact boxing, what I mean by this is we do realistic drills against the lead knee here the skilled person is the guy attacking he must feel the power of the knee jam and flow with it. The times when usually a bull headed strong built guy try to do things on his own we usually have to carry him out that night and he gets a major chewing out from me. Joint attacks can't be done even mildly mid contact in a sparring. The same with knuckle/fingers attacks to the soft parts of the body. We use encourage the tiger mouth grasp to the throat in our upper level sparring it brought about fighting out of it and fleash being torn away from the throat usually just nasty scrathes, if he got away. Anyway not anything you want to appear in a mourning meeting in suit and tie, bloodied around the neck!

Boxing even though most times its not done full contact the movements are full intent and as naturally fast as you can pull them off or time them. And as you mentioned once you hurt a person in boxing is the start of the assault.

As a matter of fact the safest place for a boxer is on the ground once hurt. We had a guy that found that out and rarely got hit more then twice boxing he went for safe haven flop on the mat or grab the arms clinch.

This is something that should be encourage in Combat Martial Arts classes continued attack not flopying that won't save you in most martial arts, maybe TKD.
_________________________
DBAckerson

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#387108 - 03/21/08 10:13 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Neko456]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
So it's safe to say that 'fan sao' is a universal h2h combat principle, yeah? As far as I can tell, WC has, boxing has it, MT, MMA, JKD, some Karate, FMA's, Krav Maga, all have it. I think pretty much everything that doesn't involve throwing like Judo or Aikido and some forms of grappling use such continuous assaults. And that's only because of the different nature of the ranges and techniques in those styles.
Nobody should ever hit once and feel like that's all it takes. Especially in SD, you should be primed to hit again and do so until the opponent is down or has curred out. I consider this one of the most important fundamentals of WC and boxing. And alive training/sparring seems like the only way to really know when to act/react. I don't think 'alive' has to mean full blast concussion-causing, eye-gouging, crotch-stomping bloodbaths. But it sure as hell better not be dancing.

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#387109 - 03/22/08 09:02 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Nice thread going guys. There's some really good communication going. I'm bumping this one up until I have time to weigh in with a few more thoughts.

Briefly I will add that, the longer that I am alive and training, I am able to see both sides of the argument a lot clearer. In fact, quite often I am able to establish the underlying principles of wing chun within boxing sparring. If I'm correct, principles are truly the main components of any martial discipline.

Part of the issue with me is seeing how so many wing chun people train. It isn't that the art "doesn't work", its that the people themselves, don't "work". Obviously this is true for any art...and has equally been true for folks within the JKD community.

-John

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#387110 - 03/22/08 12:32 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: JKogas]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Quote:

Part of the issue with me is seeing how so many wing chun people train. It isn't that the art "doesn't work", its that the people themselves, don't "work".




Agreed wholeheartedly.

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#387111 - 03/22/08 02:06 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Neko456]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
The gym I attend is based in a University (though I am not a student) Before Christmas I was on my way to the gym, and I noticed a WC class was on. As I hadn't done any martial arts training in a while, I thought "Screw it, why not?". So I spoke to the instructor and jumped into the class.

I liked the emphasis on relaxation I was shown in the WC class. I also liked something I did called the "Goat Stance", which was a nice workout for my leg muscles.

My boxing experience is far longer. I started training around 9 years ago, and have trained on and off again(whenever I can get the chance really!).

To further add to what has been said about boxing... I would also mention the physical conditioning of boxing. I always found it to be superior to most any other martial art I studied (with the notable exception of Judo).

I always thought that would serve anyone well in a SD situation. If you had to use your boxing to fend off an attacker (assuming you could successfully), and then run away, well, you would likely have the gas in the tank to do so. Or if you had to run, then got caught, you would have the enery to fight back.

I contrast this with the wheezing and coughing that I noticed in some traditional martial arts classes (like WJJF Ju Jitsu and TKD) with the beer belly black belt brigade lol!

Not everyone was like this in those classes, and I know individual fitness is a persons own responsibility, but I think there is a difference between general health and being "fighting fit", if that makes sense!

NB The WJJF Ju Jitsu is a pseudo traditional Ju Jitsu style. It uses a wide range of techniques such from a variety of non-Japanese sources and calls it Ju Jitsu against non-resisting training partners (generally). I AM not referring to Brazilian Jiu Jitsu in the above post!!!!!
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#387112 - 03/22/08 02:30 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Prizewriter]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

you would likely have the gas in the tank to do so. Or if you had to run, then got caught, you would have the enery to fight back.





While I am never going to say that conditioning is a bad thing, I think it's a bit overrated in terms of self defense.

One of the keys to my view of Martial Arts is the ability of an otherwise overmatched person to defend themselves effectively and that usually is not related to strength or cardio conditioning.

Now, I am not knocking the benifit of fitness, I am simply pointing out there are other elements more important to Self Defense.
_________________________
Undefeated in all of Asia!

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#387113 - 03/23/08 12:53 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Kimo2007]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Food for thought:

check out this clip from the Ricky Hatton/Floyd Mayweather fight last year -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QevWKNM9JWY

Note that Mayweather's 'pitter patter' focus mitt drills were mocked by Hatton. If you saw the fight, you know what happened.
Again, technique is never a substitute for conditioning, but it can be highly effective trained with precision and care at an equitable pace. I guess my point is kind of pro-boxing and pro-wing chun

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#387114 - 03/23/08 05:28 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Kimo2007]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
What's more important than running away when you are overmatched lol?

When I talk about "fighting fit" I refer to the overall condition of the body, the responsiveness of the muscles used in fight and flight and good reflexes, as well as the ability to take a hit. That is what I mean by "fighting fit". That is what conditioning can help with in my experience. Apologies for not making that clear. I wasn't simply referring to having the ability to run away quickly!
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#387115 - 03/23/08 10:22 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Kimo2007]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Quote:

you would likely have the gas in the tank to do so. Or if you had to run, then got caught, you would have the enery to fight back.





While I am never going to say that conditioning is a bad thing, I think it's a bit overrated in terms of self defense.





I dont a person can be fit enough. A few skillfull powerfull boxers have been beaten by some one who used fitness to their advantage. .

Some one who is fit, can run and has a decent right hand would do well against an all round fighter who isnt so fit.

I think realy though( general-ising here) a person should try to work on all the elements required.

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