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#387166 - 03/29/08 09:47 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: GansuKid]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
All I can say is your experience are different then mines WC has its advanatges and so does boxing. From my past experience boxers hit harder then WCers. From my experience boxers take a punche better then WCs or Martial artist because of their conditioning and training.

Chain punching is not WCs strongest attack and without body torque feels like solid jabs gloved. Nothing like a full right cross or a hook. True ungloved that can bust you up bare knuckle even knock some out, but not with the effect of a full torquing right hand or left hook.

You mentioned ungloved I agree WC hits harder ungloved but not as hard as a person torquing his body, its just body mechanics. Argue with phyisic.


Edited by Neko456 (03/29/08 09:54 PM)
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#387167 - 03/29/08 10:25 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Neko456]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
"WCers hit hard but don't torque their body much so delievery wise they don't hit as hard."

Huh? What do you think Yiu Ma is? A good wing chun punch will be EVERY BIT as hard as a boxer's WITH the added advantage that it is not loaded up for. I'm sorry, but if WC schools don't work on this kind of punch, then they suck. Seriously. WC IS a punching art. The 3 empty handed forms are called the 'BOXING forms' in HK for a good reason.
I don't really care though. I sincerely HOPE people think I practice weak punches if they ever decide to try me on.
I don't want to dismiss or disrespect anyone's training, I really don't... but if you're learning how to punch with only 'stun' or 'light damage' results, ESPECIALLY in an SD sense, than you should really question the logic of what you're learning.

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#387168 - 03/30/08 01:14 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
GansuKid Offline
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Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 36
Neko456 for the record I don’t do Wing Chun (So hopefully you won’t think I’m bias towards Wing Chun) On a whole I would have to agree that Boxers take and give better than most Wing Chun’ers. But there are some solid Kwoons out there that really mix it up. Again, for the record I have sparred against both and I will state I do agree with a lot of what you have said.

When I’ve sparred against Wing Chun guys they use chain punching like Boxers use the jab. Just as Shikataganai reference, the punches go off unloaded and zip like a machine gun. Usually followed up by something malicious. I personally have been stunned and dropped by an attack started with chain punches. (I’m not noted for having a glass jaw …. it was set up with a nice [well timed] front kick that checked my forward momentum and left me flat footed.

ShikataGaNai….For the record those chain punches nearly took my head off and felt no different than walking into a combo started with a hard jab and a cross.

IMO Wing Chun is a martial art just as viable as Boxing. I think there is this stigma that boxing is better due to the “appearance” that the sport of MMA uses boxing as there main stand up attack. I’m not sure they heavy hitters of MMA qualify as boxers or qualify as having boxing skills.

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#387169 - 03/30/08 01:50 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: GansuKid]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

I think there is this stigma that boxing is better due to the “appearance” that the sport of MMA uses boxing as there main stand up attack. I’m not sure they heavy hitters of MMA qualify as boxers or qualify as having boxing skills.





They use the boxing delivery system but it isn't quite the same as the ring sport of boxing. Too many other variable to make it so.

I am certainly not antagonistic to wing chun. I just don't have much faith in the validity of it's training methods.

MMA is an excellent crucible for technique, yet you see little "wing chun" in competition, in any event. Where is the chain punching? It simply doesn't exist. Do you know why? Because you'll get taken down in a New York minute when you try it.

Is isn't that I believe that it can't work in MMA, it just hasn't. There are reasons why and I've mentioned one of them.


-John

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#387170 - 03/30/08 02:28 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I'm not a WCer I respect the art but I don't think there system of delievery is as strong as some system that torque the body and use the hips and shoulders. By the way I hit pretty hard with almost any strike, I've trained with Wcers and mostly am impressed with there lower body work and short hand to elbows use almost like my base.

Ungloved and full arsenal it makes a potent SD system giving it, its due but being fair and I want it noted this just my opinion that boxers hit harder. Now I'm not saying WCer's can't punuch I'm saying they rely on speed and short compact strikes which most time aren't as hard as full torquing strikes.

I like WC/JKD and compact striking arts but I don't think just using body mechanics of each method they hit as hard as most. JKD can't be bottle neck with this because they use anything that works Boxing, Thai boxing and Silat, anything that works for them, even a little WC nowdays.
I know it use to be its base but not much anymore do, you know why? Maybe because it doesn't hit as hard as most.

Why do you think WC hits as hard as Boxing body Mechanic wise? Help me out.

Jokgas is right most WCers that fight MMA look like modified boxers, I wonder why? Of course TKDer or Karatakas fighters that fight MMA look like mod-boxers so that might be a in Roman do as the Roman thing.

I question does big guys punuch as hard as mid and smaller WCers because its all base on speed and snap, usually a big guy isn't as fast as a smaller one. The big WCers I've sparred aren't as good to me as the Smaller faster ones, of course the smaller guys were of higher ranked and skill. So this might be a mute point except that sometimes a tall guy gives up his reach wanting to fight too close like WC does. Of course I sure there are some tall guys that got it down.

Some of this is my assumptions by all mean straighten me out. I want to know.

I remember Chinese WCers that partictated in the bare fisted full powered body punching, sweeps and throws allowed full powered head kicking tourney in Japan it was pitiful. There were some other weak performances but all of these WC guys were weak. The people I know here are alot stronger then them, of course this was event in the 80s. I shouldn't have mentioned this but it is an example weak barefisted WC. The WC in and around me is alot more potent then that.


Edited by Neko456 (03/30/08 02:48 AM)
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#387171 - 03/30/08 02:50 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Neko456]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Ignore that comment about the 80s Kyoushinkia (<-sp?)tourney it was just a tournament not self defense. I feel bad mentioning it and it made a mute point, but still an example of lack of power in their delievery system.

The thing that I see is WC produces various artist of different strengths and weakness just like any Martail Art.
But I don't think its ever been known for its power but for efficient and short range application.

I hold to this why is it that JKD have moved away from WC as a its main striking system? I know that WCers don't think much of JKD but still the question remain why(generalize stated I know, search your heart). I do assume alot but I listen to them talk, JKD is bastardize mess some say. I believe its the father of MMA of the west of course the Greek didn't 1st.

Some people make a big deal that Bruce Lee started in WC, this true so why did he devises JKD and held western boxing so highly was it because of its power and mobility?

Just throwing some bones out to maul around, Please forgive me for the 80s' tournament statement it was early in the mourning. Like you maybe thinking what the hell does that have to do it your WC, I agree totally.


Edited by Neko456 (03/30/08 02:54 PM)
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#387172 - 03/30/08 07:43 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Neko456]
GansuKid Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 36
Why should we (the readers) excuse honest attempts to compare and contrast WC to Boxing... Although I initially disagreed with some of your earlier posts, your last few have been dead on. IMO shows forethought

The 80s Kyoushinkia tournament ( Interesting….I wasn’t aware it was in the 1980’s I thought more like the mid 70’s) The weight class I thought was a bit one sided. IMO It seemed to me (on viewing it on Youtube) that the size and weight difference favored the Kyoushin.

I much more like the Taikken-Kyoushin matches on Youtube. The contests seem balanced with Yi Quan giving as good as it got

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#387173 - 03/30/08 10:09 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Neko456]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
"I know that WCers don't think much of JKD but still the question remain why(generalize stated I know, search your heart)"

I think alot of WCers are honestly threatened by the JKD concept because it forces them to do something most schools don't normally teach - to use their own minds. However, going FROM JKD to WC has given me a different perspective - that it is really, REALLY difficult to stick with and master one system of fighting. In the end, ANY system becomes 'JKD' because you learn how to use that system unorthodoxically. I think WC lends itself particularly well to this progression, believe it or not. You're just not going to get that through the bigger organizations out there though (I really don't need to name them).
I can't stress enough how important punching power really SHOULD be in WC. I've also never been taught 'chain punching', as it usually becomes flailing garbage. JKogas is absolutely right - it spells takedown with a capital T, or even simpler, get out of the line of punches and cream the guy. I've seen some really pathetic, stiff, robotic chain punching out there and it is definitely not what we would call proper 'Fan Sao' or continuation of strike. Strike being the key word.
Maybe I've just been lucky. I looked at a lot of WC schools before I started where I'm at, and they all looked like BS. It's the difference I found that convinced me to train WC as my base. I said it before, but studying it has made picking up techniques from other systems at least ten times easier.

As far as Bruce Lee is concerned, well... he's dead. And I wish to god that instructors and students alike in WC and JKD would stop trying to ride his glorious coat tails. And IMO the reason why Bruce felt he needed to 'modify' WC is because he didn't learn the whole system, and wasn't allowed to come back and finish because the Chinese guys were p1$$ed at him for 'selling out' their culture.
As far as I've personally been able to understand, BL's priorities were 1. His acting career. 2. His physical fitness. 3. Martial Arts. 4. MAYBE his family.
I love his movies and yeah, he was a big influence on me but man, he was no saint and I think he gets too much credit strictly as a martial artist.
But that's just one guy's opinion.

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#387174 - 03/31/08 08:49 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
GansuKid Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 36
SkikataGaNai Wrote: "WC has given me a different perspective - that it is really, REALLY difficult to stick with and master one system of fighting. In the end, ANY system becomes 'JKD' because you learn how to use that system unorthodoxically."

I totally agree. IMO that's when you have mastered a system. However, for the recored let me say there are different levels of mastership.

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#387175 - 04/01/08 09:17 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Shikata.. wrote - As far as Bruce Lee is concerned, well... he's dead. And I wish to god that instructors and students alike in WC and JKD would stop trying to ride his glorious coat tails. And IMO the reason why Bruce felt he needed to 'modify' WC is because he didn't learn the whole system, and wasn't allowed to come back and finish because the Chinese guys were p1$$ed at him for 'selling out' their culture.
As far as I've personally been able to understand, BL's priorities were 1. His acting career. 2. His physical fitness. 3. Martial Arts. 4. MAYBE his family.
I love his movies and yeah, he was a big influence on me but man, he was no saint and I think he gets too much credit strictly as a martial artist.
But that's just one guy's opinion.
=========================================

That is true Sifu Lee didn't complete the study of WC but he was high enough to evaluate its weakness and progress past them and fill in the gaps. And devise open minded thinking that was outside the box back then. Back then one system was all the people in power wanted you study, think that one was a catch all. Unlike you I think Sifu Lee's input had wanton value in that it help unlock man's most valuable weapon the mind.

As for Lee's talents and priorities I slightly disagree with your view in that I believe he value his martial art first, feeding his family 2nd, his acting career was his job and it was as important as ours because it help support the main two priorites. But even in acting he brought a message other then magical fly over the roof top chop stick kung-fu. Theres was some actual high level of skill in what he did on flim. For incidents how many WC man can kick like that or fought in full range back in the 70s? Like you I find it sad that Bruce Lee seems to be WC's lacky when they want recognition they bring his name up, when they evaluate his thoughts they say he was no good or was only a Intermediate student.

====================
Gansukid - The weight class I thought was a bit one sided. IMO It seemed to me (on viewing it on Youtube) that the size and weight difference favored the Kyoushin.

===============================
I didn't see it that way that was a big kid for a Chinese, now I will agree he was fighting a fitter Man. I also would say that they probably got set up, I mean the luck of the draw and you're fighting one Kyoushin-kai's better fighters. I will say this from what I saw almost any KK guy there would have done the same thing to him, he was not fit and had weak technique. The WCers got off first with a rapid fire punches but to no avail. You are probably right about the date.


Edited by Neko456 (04/01/08 09:27 AM)
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