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#387136 - 03/25/08 04:48 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: JKogas]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

That begs the question, doesn't everyone wear gloves to train in?




Notably there are things like Kyokushin (and other knockdown Karate perhaps?) that seem to train without gloves.

Obviously you normally remove the head as target if you're going with much intensity, but for better or worse it's pretty common in the Karate world to not use gloves.

I personally think there are merits and downsides to doing both things.

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#387137 - 03/25/08 04:58 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Neko456]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

Most times but alot of MAs loose who they are (can't feel or trap or check the moves as well) in gloves. As in your dirty boxing it better to wear MMA or fingerless gloves rather then boxing gloves to do that because you want to grab the head and uppercut or whatever.

Wing Chun and I like to grab certain parts of the arm or shoulder or shirt certainly you can't to that with boxing gloves on.





Agreed. I do the same thing when I am boxing. I grab the arm, the neck, underhook the arm, overhook the arm, etc. You can trap to a small degree with boxing gloves on but only for a brief moment. Thats fun though. Normally any trapping is going to occur while wearing the fingerless gloves. Obviously.


Quote:


Boxing is more a unclinched match even in close they consider it resting or cheating to tie up without finding punching room. With us its just going into a different range.

Hows is your distance boxing compared to your dirty boxing (I know you're good at that)? Can you handle a good boxer unclinched?





All things being relative, I like to think that my distance game/long range is decent. I start out there and work a fair bit of counter punching. Of course I'm not just a boxer. I will throw in some leg kicks and savate stuff for good measure. I call the long range the "pot-shotting" distance.

Personally I like to work every range, so hopefully I would fair pretty well against someone who doesn't. We all know its a crapshoot. As soon as I box a better boxer, I'm going to get outboxed. Same is true for anything else. Its why we keep training isn't it?


Quote:


A lot of MAs can't handle a real fast jab w/o attacking the legs, WC is one of the arts that you gotta come better then that because thats what they train for imho.

So yes we train in gloves sometimes, you don't walk around with gloves on so its best to learn to hit without them, even boxers. What do you say?





I think the fast jab should probably be one of the very first things that people learn to deal with. Its fundamental and is something that we teach people how to do within the first week of starting their training. But I find it odd that people training in "martial arts" would have a difficult time vs. a fast jab - yet I agree with you; I believe a lot of folks don't prepare adequately for an aggressive, skilled opponent. This is quite common.

Another thing that people do is that they prepare for a boxing-style "technique", but they don't train vs. a "boxer", etc. There's a difference as I see it. Case in point was a video clip seen here where a wing chun guy was training against a "left hook" (etc). That was it...just a left hook (it could have been ANY one technique). There was no set-up, no footwork, no feinting, no counter punching, etc. Just the left hook. And the guy throwing the left hook was getting his A$$ kicked time after time (it was "scripted" that way...they obviously knew before hand who was going to be the kicker and the kickee). I have a problem with that sort of training. It simply doesn't prepare a person as much as developing the entire standing delivery system would.

But again, I agree. We don't walk around with gloves on. That's for sure. And I believe that if all I person did was train boxing with big gloves on, he/she would certainly not be seeing the entire picture. Then again, the art of boxing isn't limited to it's competitive, rules based expression. With that in mind, I'd like to add that when I use the term "boxer", I'm obviously not just referring to the ring sport athlete. I am referring to anyone who practices stand-up fighting from a core boxing delivery system.

Nice post by the way. I'd like to start more conversation about "trapping" as we go.


-John

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#387138 - 03/25/08 05:01 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


Notably there are things like Kyokushin (and other knockdown Karate perhaps?) that seem to train without gloves.

Obviously you normally remove the head as target if you're going with much intensity, but for better or worse it's pretty common in the Karate world to not use gloves.





Agreed. Kyokushinkai was my very first "style" way back in the day..

One thing I would add is that the head should (IMO) be the primary target in a street fight/self-defense situation. Thus removal of the head in a sparring situation would be truly detrimental, wouldn't you say?


Quote:


I personally think there are merits and downsides to doing both things.





Naturally.


-John

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#387139 - 03/25/08 05:24 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: JKogas]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


One thing I would add is that the head should (IMO) be the primary target in a street fight/self-defense situation. Thus removal of the head in a sparring situation would be truly detrimental, wouldn't you say?





In general yes, but sometimes it is good to #1 not wear gloves, and #2 focus on issues other than just where you are targetting, which is where sparring like this seems to be handy.

It's also detrimental to get used to alot of issues created by larger types of gloves imo, and beyond that sparring of almost any sort has an entirely different rhythm, time frame, etc. than a real self defense situation anyway, even MMA sparring is very different from this.


So the best you can do (imho) is a decent range of sparring and drills that address the things you need, while being aware of the flaws that exist with any of them.

basically though, all sparring has flaws that don't exist in a real situation.

Not to get preachy, but if someone's really that concerned about self defense anyway, whether or not someone includes the head as the target should be lower on the list of concerns than alot of other things imo.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/25/08 05:30 PM)

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#387140 - 03/25/08 05:29 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


basically though, all sparring has flaws that don't exist in a real situation.





Mind elaborating on this a bit? I would still like to weigh in on a few of your other comments but I don't have time. Gotta hit the gym. Back later folks!

-John

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#387141 - 03/25/08 05:37 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: JKogas]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Quote:


basically though, all sparring has flaws that don't exist in a real situation.





Mind elaborating on this a bit? I would still like to weigh in on a few of your other comments but I don't have time. Gotta hit the gym. Back later folks!

-John




Honestly I don't see much to elaborate on, go watch someone get assualted, it doesn't look or feel anything like sparring, MMA or otherwise.

Different sparring can give you skills to deal with it certainly, but that doesn't mean they have a one to one relationship by any stretch.

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#387142 - 03/25/08 05:41 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
From what I have seen, street fights don't look anywhere NEARLY as clean and precise as do MMA fights. Thus, becoming good at MMA sparring would tend to create more functional use of technique FOR street fighting.

Sparring is simply fighting. Again, perhaps its just that the people you normally see in street fights aren't as skilled. Maybe that explains why you see things differently.

Just a thought.

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#387143 - 03/25/08 05:50 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: JKogas]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

From what I have seen, street fights don't look anywhere NEARLY as clean and precise as do MMA fights. Thus, becoming good at MMA sparring would tend to create more functional use of technique FOR street fighting.

Sparring is simply fighting. Again, perhaps its just that the people you normally see in street fights aren't as skilled. Maybe that explains why you see things differently.

Just a thought.




I don't view "fighting" and "self defense" as synonymous.

Most people who want to hurt you aren't gonna "fight" you, they are gonna do everything to stack the deck in their favor to not have to fight you, and still come out on top.

Doesn't mean that MMA (or anything else) can't help, but it does mean there's no one to one relationship between MA and self defense IMO.

If what you're after is me saying "yes MMA guys can defend themselves better than anyone" then i'm not gonna agree, if what you are saying is that "live" training scenarios can aid in physical self defense, I agree with that.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/25/08 05:54 PM)

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#387144 - 03/25/08 06:00 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


I don't view "fighting" and "self defense" as synonymous.




I agree and I don’t either. In fact, I don’t use the term “self-defense” preferring instead to use the term, “self-preservation”. I think it’s more appropriate for the context outside of “fighting”. I mean, if we have to go hands on, we’ve really screwed the pooch earlier up the line, so to speak.

Quote:


Most people who want to hurt you aren't gonna "fight" you, they are gonna do everything to stack the deck in their favor to not have to fight you, and still come out on top.




Anyone would do this…even in MMA. They want to win, they don’t want a close fight that might go to a decision against them. They are going to do anything and everything to come out on top. But of course, that’s MMA.

What you’re talking about is people not “having to fight you” and still “come out on top”. But you’re really being somewhat vague here. I’m imagining you’re talking about sucker attacks, etc. Of course, it’s hard to sucker punch someone who’s aware and isn’t allowing you to get the jump on you, etc. What then? All comes down to skill in application doesn’t it? Or else, not getting involved at all. Right?


Quote:


Doesn't mean that MMA (or anything else) can't help, but it does mean there's no one to one relationship between MA and self defense IMO.




Forgive me for being stupid and unclear as to what you mean by no “one to one” relationship between MMA and self-defense. Are you talking about multiple attackers or something else? I’m not following you here.


Quote:


If what you're after is me saying "yes MMA guys can defend themselves better than anyone" then i'm not gonna agree, if what you are saying is that "live" training scenarios can aid in physical self defense, I agree with that.






I don’t view things stylistically. MMA of course isn’t a style. It’s another tool like anything else. And of course everyone involved in MMA trains “alive”, which is completely necessary from a skill based perspective.

Sure, self-defense/preservation comes down to a lot of things that aren’t found within the sporting realm. However, that isn’t where I’m headed with this. One’s brain is his biggest weapon by far. I would prefer that to a solid left jab any day of the week.

Keep it coming though. I’m enjoying this conversation.

-John

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#387145 - 03/25/08 06:20 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: JKogas]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
John, basically what I am saying that there is little correlation between the way real physical violence seems to go down, and the stuff people do in the dojo/gym/whatever.

In the end ALL (everything from MMA to the SCA) training is anachronistic to real violence, if it wasn't it wouldn't be training anymore.

Anyway, i'm not sure what else to say, I respect your opinions greatly, but I feel you just want to turn this into a conversation where we insist that wing chun is simply inferior for self defense, not only do I not agree, I think you're being as doctrinaire in that appraisal as the quote that started the thread.

Conversations like this always end up with each side painting what is in reality a wide spectrum of practices with one brush, "wing chun" is not a single entity anymore than boxing is.

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