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#387156 - 03/28/08 12:24 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: donchisau]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Maybe but how do you think WC relates to boxing as a power delivery system? Even in its most rough and tumble state gloved boxing will rip through a WC guy most times because of its compact and efficient method of delievery. Boxing and Karate imo has a more powerful delivery system, gloved.

Out of gloves and not using boxing rules is a different environment and the natural weapons of WC should prevail if you can get into a near clinch or clinch range or callapse a knee or hip joint, unless a mixed boxer he wouldn't know how to deal from there. But out at mid-range the boxers mobility & ability to reach outside in toward the center line at odd angles could hurt the strick ridged by comparison Wing Chun man imo.

This is from the mix matches I've witnessed. WC is good stuff but so is boxing, both has there strengths and weaknesses.


Edited by Neko456 (03/28/08 12:31 PM)
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#387157 - 03/28/08 01:19 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Neko456]
donchisau Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73

Just for a little background for my opinions. My old training partner was a former pro boxer. In addition one of the best known boxing/mma gyms in the country is on the same block. We have open mat time on the weekends and folks from there often stop by to play around a bit.
The wing chun you are talking about is exactly what I am referring to. Wing chun relies on proper use of the lower body. wing chun power generation compares very well vs boxing methods. The methods are different and it is much easier to learn boxing methods I think. Actually wing chun is supposed to be compact . You want to get up the other persons shirt.
Another thing folks forget is that covering is the basis for wing chun fighting. Most wing chun people dont seem to do this. Wing chun is very mobile so a boxers mobility should not be an issue.
I will say that since my wing chun is different than most of the Yip Man based wing chun you see so my perspective is different.

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#387158 - 03/28/08 08:02 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: donchisau]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Right, the mobility looks different though - you don't move unless it's NECESSARY, while boxing involves varying degrees of dancing around. At least in the ring. I think the one thing I like better about WC's version of 'mobility' is that if you stay focused, you cannot be faked out. Think of it like this - A WC fighter is in standard WC guard (Wu Sao, Man sao, square stance) facing off with a boxer who skips around and circles, looking for a way in. Eventually, someone is going to have to hit first. If it's the boxer, he may try to set up a combo by using a feint of some sort, but the WC guy - if he's good - will deflect the feint and attack the same way as if it were an outright jab/cross. If the boxer's guard goes up it is moved, continue attack. If he counter attacks, the WC guy uses his hand boxing techniques as quickly and instinctively as needed and continues attack. Attacks should of course not be just 'chanin punching' (which i really don't believe in at all), but a totally invasive, adaptive assault that utterly destroys the opponent's structure, thus destroying them. Boxers on the other hand may over-strategize, spending too much time resetting and trying different tactics to get in.
Hopefully, this type of fighting does not commence in SD situations, but style can certainly be an entrapment.

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#387159 - 03/28/08 09:56 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Stormdragon]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Stormdragon wrote:
Quote:

JK, just curious, are you of the opinion that old time bare knuckle boxing was a less refined, and less effective version of modern boxing or just different because of the different rules but equal?





Old time boxing had nothing that the modern science has in terms of defense, evasive movement, footwork, etc. In that sense I would say it was definitely less refined. However as everything is relative, I’m sure there were some tough, tough fighters back in those days that would have been able to stand with anyone.

The thing is, we simply have better knowledge in this modern age. We have better athletes because we understand more about the science of training. I think this has done more to improve combat sports than “techniques and moves”. But to be quite honest, all we can do is speculate because none of us lived back in the day of John L. Sullivan.

Its very difficult to compare eras, and I don’t really want to. However I will say that I’m going to stay with the modern delivery system and pass on the old time one.

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#387160 - 03/28/08 10:22 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Neko456]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Neko456 wrote
Quote:

I also feel that most boxers stand too straight subjecting themselves to reaps, sweeps and throws. The purpose is to hide their chin on your shoulder or place weight upon you when they clinch which is prime for the above actions. The other Clinches even the Judo clinch one only needs to drop a hand to check the knee and they are loaded but away so you have to move in to reap.





If we’re talking “pure” boxing, I’d say that their stance is to narrow as well making them more vulnerable to takedowns. You also can’t stand in the middle distance and just unload either. Your combos should probably not go beyond three or four at most. In boxing, obviously you can get away with throwing a lot more. In a no rules setting, that’s going to get you taken down.


Quote:


….I find it amusing that you have strayed from JKD and yet come to the same conclusion that Silat/Kali works if applied properly.





Well truthfully I really haven’t strayed from JKD. You could say that I’ve strayed from the Jun Fan core, but honestly, I believe I’m closer to the true spirit of JKD than I have ever been in my life.

In terms of kali-silat or any OTHER style; its all movement and body mechanics. The key is proper, athletic training methods and resistance. Once the delivery systems fundamentals are in place, you can do a lot of things that may have been virtually impossible before. I’m sure a fellow like Randy Couture can make silat work to a higher degree than a silat “master” could. And that’s not an exaggeration. The reason is because he has that close range/clinch delivery system in place. He (or anyone really) could add anything into the clinch and make it work because of that very fact.

So yes I think a lot of the movements in kali-silat can work because they’re just movements. Practice them in a dead manner though and you’re going to get pasted when you try them in sparring. Practice them from the standpoint of an alive delivery system and now you’ll see the openings and have the timing to take advantage of the technique.

I’ve hit the kenjit, putar kepala, foot traps and several other footsweeps during sparring sessions. It’s starting to come together a bit more for me. Not that I’m trying to do “silat” mind you….I’m really just working movements. Again that’s really all we have.


Quote:


I also find it strange that one that profuse so much to live training can still be able to apply techniques from a dance/Silat patterns. Thats open minded good imo.





Well, lets remember that these movements are body mechanics that were put into dance/forms as an AFTERTHOUGHT! It wasn’t the “dance” that gave me the ability to perform them…it was the timing and body mechanics that I developed through boxing and wrestling in the clinch. I’ve never done the jurus and other forms. Hell, I’ve not performed a kata in well over 20 years! (and I can STILL fight somewhat well….imagine that, lol!)


Quote:


When you say traps are you meaning checks, like placing your glove on a guys arm so he has to strike around it or pull away to strike? Or acutal grabs and holds so you can strike or manuerver?




Both really. Checking is done all the time by just getting to certain positions on the inside. Trapping by utilizing underhooks and overhooks, collar ties, etc.. Even wrist pummeling and hand fighting are always coming into play, but more from a Greco-Roman perspective. Grab and hit…its not overly complicated.



Quote:


When I talk boxer I'm talking pure boxers not just a delivery system, just like there would be a difference in a WC man that practice BJJ or Thai boxing he would have a inside outside or outside med range game.





I understood where you were coming from. I just wanted to clarify to all that I look outside the boxing, “box” and expand it a little to include more things. The hands are definitely still boxing.


-John

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#387161 - 03/29/08 02:36 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
You put the boxer in a shell assuming he will over strategize and just move around.

Lets assume that they are both good fighters WC jab like lefts and rights are fast and compact but are not going compare punch for punch with the power of a boxer especially in gloves if there is a trade the boxer will win, eaisly if the WC guy isn't use to that kind of contact.

Out of gloves say in a SD as I stated its different the trade is the same I just feel that you can recover faster from a smashed nose then bil-gee to the eyes or throat, escpeically followed by a trip or leg destruction kick thats just my opinion.

But the abililty to asorb non vital target strikes (that happen more often then not) unless an exceptional durable WC man goes to the boxer because of his conditioning and training. The acception of some contact or hits to non vital area opens up counters for heavier counters.

Hopefully this not seen a slight on WC hopefully I given it its due also. This is just my opinion gloved WC doesn't hit as hard as Boxing and is too ridgetic.

Jokgas how are Greco wrestling traps done? And how are they differ then WC/JKD traps sounds more like Judo stance boxer clinches modified, rather then a temporaily limb immobilizing technique, so you can strike.

Whats your O on Boxer vs. WC punching power comparsion? From a felt impact point of view. I felt gloved the boxer hits harder, maybe WC short & faster maybe. Boxers load up WC don't.


Edited by Neko456 (03/29/08 02:36 AM)
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#387162 - 03/29/08 09:14 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Neko456]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


...how are Greco wrestling traps done? And how are they differ then WC/JKD traps sounds more like Judo stance boxer clinches modified, rather then a temporaily limb immobilizing technique, so you can strike.





The “traps” are just the various ways of attaining the control tie-ups. The bicep ties, underhooks, overhooks, wrist control, collar ties all lend themselves to the striking game very effectively.

If you gain the underhook on one side and a bicep tie on the other, you immobilize both arms and with leg positioning, you can control the opponent’s body. This allows you to steer him around and strike while preventing him from doing the same.


Quote:


Whats your O on Boxer vs. WC punching power comparsion? From a felt impact point of view. I felt gloved the boxer hits harder, maybe WC short & faster maybe. Boxers load up WC don't.





Boxers don’t throw from their centerline the way many WC guys do. I think they get more power from their hips as a result. They can hit harder because of the gloves as well which protect the hands somewhat. I’d give the edge in punching to boxers hands down because it’s what they do. IMO, I don’t think there is ANY art better than boxing for learning how to punch someone.

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#387163 - 03/29/08 12:34 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: JKogas]
GansuKid Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 36
I think the question of power is moot. Because it depends on the person. I have sparred both and felt some solid stuff from either style.

The dynamic factor of wing chun IMO is in quick successive short range strikes that stun or worse. Once stunned your defense breaks down quick (or becomes non-existent)

I know that when sparring and I get a good shot and my bell gets rung, I'm stunned for a half second or so.... It seems to me that Wing Chun's Chain punching (and techniques than stem/roll off of that strategy) seem more efficient than boxing for taking advantage of the situation.

Boxing may have the power but do away with gloves and its hard to cover up from a guy who is dominating your center line unless you retrograde.

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#387164 - 03/29/08 08:32 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: GansuKid]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I don't think that size has that much to do with some welterweights and most middleweight boxers hits pretty hard, WCers hit hard but don't torque their body much so delievery wise they don't hit as hard. You mentioned stun being stun for a boxer is just boxing, he is going to give back.

This maybe just me but from my experience chain punuching works on people not use to being punched or hit. The power comes from the body moving forward and the punch driving out in short circluar motions. A power over hand right or upppercut ends all that side steping hook or right cross ends all that in combo. Alot of boxers will take a jab on top of the forehead to get in a heavy counter. People that are not afriad of contact chain punching aren't a good exchange with hip torque punuchers. IMO.

To me WC hardest punch is the jutting pulling sliding forward punch.

I agree the full arsenal of WC gives it an advantage on the street out of gloves, but from the waist up except for elbows and finger jabs, boxers hands are more powerful, imo.

Jokgas the Greco trap as you call it sounds like something I'd like to explorer hitting and not getting hit without alot of footwork or head movement sounds like Me since I'm getting old. I like the duck under they do to get behind to do the arm lift throws over the shoulder throw Suplex its call I believe, reminds of Judos belt throws.

I agree mechanics of the punuch means a lot, 1st only counts if its a percises finger jab or points in a tournament.
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#387165 - 03/29/08 09:29 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Neko456]
GansuKid Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 36
Being from Detroit and having boxed at the Kronx, I don't quite agree with this statement

" maybe just me but from my experience chain punuching works on people not use to being punched or hit."

I've spent time in front of solid Wing Chun guys who were just as effective as guys down at the Kronx (i.e with thier hands..)

I also don't think the statement is quite accurate either....lol...."You mentioned stun being stun for a boxer is just boxing, he is going to give back."

And... "Alot of boxers will take a jab on top of the forehead to get in a heavy counter. People that are not afriad of contact chain punching aren't a good exchange with hip torque punuchers." This makes no sense....

Take the gloves off or use 4oz MMA gloves... Who here can take a solid shot on the forehead? From a jab yea but most wing Chun guys don't jab. And throwing a jab in a real fight against someone who knows the ground game just initiates a takedown.

Stunned is stunned...


Edited by GansuKid (03/29/08 09:33 PM)

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