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#387096 - 03/18/08 12:45 PM Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better???
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? While enjoying a Youtube video of I believe one of the Famous modren Masters and fighter of a form of Wing Chun a Chinese Translator stated that the Master said that " Boxing was no good, WC is better".

Now I know that in translating alot can be missed and in a seminar you don't have time to give your complete view just your message. But I really think there is another way to say that Boxing is a sport, which is what I believe they meant.

WC in my opinion gives you more weapons to handle self defense situations. WC's supposited strength over some of the other complicated Kung-fu system is that its approach is simple and they spar more.

I believe from the waist up boxing maybe the shorter and simplier route over WC, that it deveolps better power and reaction to a hand attack in a shorter time. Because boxing stresses WC's advantages over the other Kuens life long systems. They spar more and sharpen the few weapons they have.

What is your opinion about the statement made?

What is your on hands or objective view of VT/WC vs. Western boxing as a hand delivery & defensive method?

Boxing is a sport no way can I say its no good.


Edited by Neko456 (03/18/08 12:47 PM)
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#387097 - 03/18/08 01:26 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Neko456]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Loc: Bellingham, WA
Quote:

Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better???





I can't stand statements like this. Whenever I hear the whole 'boxing doesn't work for self defense' diatribe, I think of incidents like this:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?search=&mode=related&v=6iDlzL7zrNU

WC and boxing both have more characteristics that are similar than most of these 'sifus' want to admit, the most common one being that they train the holy hell out of the punch (or at least should). Even though the mechanics and theories are different, the end result is the same - a good, solid, snappy, powerful punch that doesn't require cocking back or loading up for.
Also, sport boxers have conditioning that can't be beat by any martial arts hobbyist - there is no argument there. The ability to 'exchange blows' or simply take several shots without getting taken out of the fight is nothing to scoff at. I once asked a teacher from a different lineage what to do if your defenses are penetrated and you get hit hard. His answer was pretty much 'well, if your kung fu is good you won't get hit, but if you're worried about it perhaps learn some iron shirt technique.
Ok, so either way you're looking at 15-20 years of slow, fairly esoteric training there... or I could just keep myself in shape and actually GET HIT once in a while...
Hmm...
Anyway, I learned how to box way before taking up WC and I still love to train boxing as much as I can. My WC is in my boxing, and my boxing in my WC etc. and that's just how it is. Just different parts of the whole. It irks me that so many CMA practitioners knock boxing, but have never even tried it.
Sorry, that was kinda long

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#387098 - 03/19/08 10:40 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
janxspirit Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 132
Quote:

Quote:

Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better???





I can't stand statements like this. Whenever I hear the whole 'boxing doesn't work for self defense' diatribe, I think of incidents like this:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?search=&mode=related&v=6iDlzL7zrNU

WC and boxing both have more characteristics that are similar than most of these 'sifus' want to admit, the most common one being that they train the holy hell out of the punch (or at least should). Even though the mechanics and theories are different, the end result is the same - a good, solid, snappy, powerful punch that doesn't require cocking back or loading up for.
Also, sport boxers have conditioning that can't be beat by any martial arts hobbyist - there is no argument there. The ability to 'exchange blows' or simply take several shots without getting taken out of the fight is nothing to scoff at. I once asked a teacher from a different lineage what to do if your defenses are penetrated and you get hit hard. His answer was pretty much 'well, if your kung fu is good you won't get hit, but if you're worried about it perhaps learn some iron shirt technique.
Ok, so either way you're looking at 15-20 years of slow, fairly esoteric training there... or I could just keep myself in shape and actually GET HIT once in a while...
Hmm...
Anyway, I learned how to box way before taking up WC and I still love to train boxing as much as I can. My WC is in my boxing, and my boxing in my WC etc. and that's just how it is. Just different parts of the whole. It irks me that so many CMA practitioners knock boxing, but have never even tried it.
Sorry, that was kinda long




Wing Chun and boxing are NOT that similar.

Wing Chun just doesn't seem very useful in application against determined opponents..as far as I can tell?
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#387099 - 03/19/08 11:28 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: janxspirit]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

Wing Chun and boxing are NOT that similar.




They're not the same, but they are similar.

Quote:

Wing Chun just doesn't seem very useful in application against determined opponents..as far as I can tell?




Depends on how they train. I use ChiSao elements (as well as AKK checking and leveraging) in my sparring all the time ie; bong sau, sticking, etc. But you have to train it against real resistance.
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#387100 - 03/19/08 01:46 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: MattJ]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Registered: 08/27/05
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Matt hit it exactly right. And to further clarify my point about WC and boxing being similar - in my experience they are both very simple fighting systems once you understand the principles, and how effective they are depends entirely on the amount of training and practice a fighter puts in.

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#387101 - 03/19/08 03:55 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
JKogas Offline
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Personally I would put my money on boxer 9 out of 10 times, simply because I believe that boxing training is far and away better than most wing chun training that I have ever seen.

If you apply the tools of wing chun in boxing style training, then I believe you might see more functional results. I also believe that if you did that, much of the wing chun syllabus would get dropped.

Tan sau? Not for me thank you!


Just my opinion.


-John

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#387102 - 03/19/08 05:10 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: janxspirit]
cxt Offline
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Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
janxspirit

"application" is pretty much personally dependent.

A hammer is a hammer....but some people can barely build a decent birdhouse while others are capable of building pretty much anything and some people can build remarkable things....same hammer.....its whom is using it that counts.

Martial arts are the same....IMO, more or less.


Edited by cxt (03/19/08 05:11 PM)
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#387103 - 03/20/08 02:34 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: cxt]
Neko456 Offline
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Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I believe WC gives you more overall weapons to work with and prepare you for real world scenarios. It usually has short efficent strikes and stress multiple strikes. It also uses alot of lower level tripping and joint damaging techniques. It (like most martial arts) can't be practiced full out because of the damage that is possible to the practitioner.

Boxing is an excellent method to counter full out danagerous hand attacks, bc thats what they train against normally. Probably imo superior to the short punches in WC just for example comparing WC's chain puncing with a Boxers straight combination.

Here lies WC's weakness (and most MAs) in regrad to Boxing, Boxing at a certain can be practiced full out because you stay within its rules. This is its major strength.

The Classic Boxing weakness is that he/she is trapped within its rules unaware of low leg/hands attacks, elbows, knees, throws, sweeps, locks, chokes and escapes from ground plummenting. Opened up to the possibilities makes the Boxer even more effective. Taking either outside its boundaries could be dangerous.

WC does have the most danagerous possibilities, bc they at least train it.
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#387104 - 03/20/08 12:08 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Neko456]
cxt Offline
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Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
Neko

I don't disagree...I once watched and interview with Ali where he publically stated that karate was more dangerous than boxing because a karate man could kick--which gave him 2 more limbs to fight with 2 to 4 so to speak (my paraphrase of course)

But that is just theory--"possiblites" as you so accurately put it.

Its the person that makes those possiblites into reality...IMO.
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I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#387105 - 03/20/08 04:19 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: cxt]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
I will say this for wing chun - ever since I developed a 'reasonable' amount of proficiency in it, I found that I could pick up techniques from other arts more quickly. We've had students come in from TKD and boxing experienced backgrounds and they always seem to really struggle with the WC concepts, yet I feel like when I cross train I can slip easily into other 'modes'. This is of course just my own experience.
I think this is the relationship with other arts that made WC the original JKD foundation.

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#387106 - 03/20/08 11:51 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
Triddle Offline
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Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 129
Loc: Australia
Hello everyone

Firstly I'll start by saying that it is my personal belief that training in boxing will make you a better fighter than training in wing chun in most cases, by most cases I mean your average martial arts hobbyist. I trained wing chun a few years ago and boxing immediately after and though I trained Wing Chun for longer I felt I learned more in boxing, infact boxing was absolutely revolutional for me as a martial artist. I felt like boxing took everything I knew and built on it in an amazing way, I can honestly say I learned more about fighting during my short time in boxing than 6 years of TKD. Though I didn't actually learn TO kick or knee or whathave you in boxing, I learned so much about every aspect of my martial arts just through the boxing training methods. Perhaps my opinion is biased, but here goes anyway. Also note that I'll be talking largely about my own experiences here, but my experience in boxing was nothing exceptional I don't believe, just the typical old coach in a dodgy little gym. Not that my coach wasn't great, but you know what I mean.

It has been said that Wing Chun and other styles are too dangerous to train full on. Though this is true in a sense, I feel there is a lot less truth in it than there is made out to be. The basic techniques can be applied in a similar way to boxing without seriously injuring anyone. Generally in boxing sparring you do not go full out, believe it or not. In boxing FIGHTS you go full out, but in sparring it's very common to not just beat the tar out of your partner, or else no boxers would live past 20. The same thing can be applied to any martial art, aside from things which are manipulating joints or whatever, then it's just like wrestling, be careful when you apply it and tap out when it's applied on you. Medium contact sparring, as seen regularly in boxing is not going to be a big issue regardless of what style you're doing, when it becomes full contact you need a lot of control, as seen in boxing fights, i.e. A referee who stops the fight when someone is getting pummeled as well as two guys on the side who can 'throw in the towel'.

The massive advantage boxers have is that they regularly train with medium contact and the high level of simplicity of what they train, boxing training produces the best punchers, simply because they punch more often than other styles of training, it's not that one style of punching is better than another or anything like that, it's a simple matter of the more you punch the more punch you pack. It's true that limited background boxers lack the ability to kick, but I'll be damned if they don't make up for it with excellent footwork, speed and ability to rain down the blows.

One thing boxing teaches better than anything I've seen is to string your punches together. It's true that wing chun teaches this to a large extent, with chain punching and whatnot, but boxing teaches it in a way most wing chun instructors will refuse to. When I started boxing my coach would get angry at me for not laying in to people when I got the opertunity, I'd have the old fella at the side of ring yelling "HIT HIM TRISTAN KEEP [censored] HITTING THE [censored]!" and I learned to just keep seeing the openings of someone who is trying to back away and cover up, and learned how to exploit those chances right up until you're broken appart. Once the oponent is on the defensive a good boxer can demolish a man, which is one of things that needs controling by the ref. This completely changed the way I fight, I used to get combos going and whatnot, but boxing taught me to see an opening and before I even realise I've seen it the arm is on the go. What's more is that it took practically no time to learn this, you either do it or you lose, and losing hurts.

The footwork I learned in boxing was great for me, boxing made me into a much more mobile fighter, my coach hit me when I wasn't moving enough, training like that simply works. He'd get me on the mits and at first I'd have a tendancy to stand still and whack, then *bonk* he'd pop me one on the nose or forehead and say "Move your feet!". Note that this wasn't a drill in moving the feet, this was just practicing punching, but the way he made me move around while doing this really helped. I used to be good enough at dodging an incoming attack from dodging training, but boxing taught me to always be ready to move. No standing there punching drills, whenever we did ANYTHING we were ready to move and dodge and bob and weave.

The most important thing really was the ability to take hits, I mean I'd been hit quite a lot before I started, bound to have been in martial arts training, but in higher contact training you learn to really get pummeled and stay in the fight, the first time I sparred in boxing I thought I'd be alright you know, I wasn't too bad, but the guy I was sparring was good, and he hit me, but he didn't then STOP hitting me like it had been in the past, oh no, he just kept on hitting. He didn't pummel the hell out of me or anything, he was being nice since I was new, but he'd back me into corners and give me a fair go, and when I did manage to get him I wasn't able to string combos together in such a way as he was, and ontop of that he couldn't seem to care less that I had hit him, I appologised the first time I got a real good whack on him and he just looked puzzeled, probably wondering what kind of sissy I was "Appologising for punching me in the face? Ha!". I also liked the confined area of the boxing ring, you've got no where to run, you either dodge or hurt, none of that continuous backpeddling.

Basically it teaches you to deal with real fighting, though it's true there are a lot of rules to the fighting, it feels a lot more real than low contact sparring, it teaches you to deal with the pressure of a fight quite well and to fight without thought.


Now I know you're all thinking I praise boxing a little too highly, but I feel the cons of boxing are blatantly obvious, and there is no need for me to go through them in great detail. So this is essentially the cons part of my argument where I point out a couple of things for you to keep in mind;

Boxing doesn't teach you to look for anything but punches and openings for punches.

Boxing doesn't teach you ANY wrestling at all.

Boxing doesn't teach you to use various weapons (kicks, knees elbows etc) Though I will say it does help you learn to use them well if you already know how to throw them.

Wing Chun does teach you a much greater variety of things than boxing, it's certainly true. But I believe boxing will produce a higher quality fighter in a shorter period of time, since there is so much less to try to learn, you just perfect the absolute basics. If you give it enough time though, eastern style martial arts do have a lot more to teach. However I feel that boxing style training does a lot better job of producing your basic fighter, of course if other styles employed the same training methods as boxing then I'm not sure what would happen.

In conclusion I feel that boxing has a lot to offer any fighter, though boxing wont make you a complete and well rounded fighter, I think it can teach some things that other styles simply fail to teach. I'm not sure how great one would be if you just training boxing and nothing else, but I think boxing is a great compliment to any style because it teaches the things which it does teach so very very well. I believe it's especially useful for someone with a base in other martial arts, it's usefulness on it's own I can't vouche for as I had been in martial arts for some time when I took it up, but it certainly did a lot for me.

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#387107 - 03/21/08 08:22 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Triddle]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I agree with everything you stated from the waist up boxing is superior to Wing-Chun in producing a application fighter.

But I have a slight difference on any Martial art being practices with intensity of mild contact boxing, what I mean by this is we do realistic drills against the lead knee here the skilled person is the guy attacking he must feel the power of the knee jam and flow with it. The times when usually a bull headed strong built guy try to do things on his own we usually have to carry him out that night and he gets a major chewing out from me. Joint attacks can't be done even mildly mid contact in a sparring. The same with knuckle/fingers attacks to the soft parts of the body. We use encourage the tiger mouth grasp to the throat in our upper level sparring it brought about fighting out of it and fleash being torn away from the throat usually just nasty scrathes, if he got away. Anyway not anything you want to appear in a mourning meeting in suit and tie, bloodied around the neck!

Boxing even though most times its not done full contact the movements are full intent and as naturally fast as you can pull them off or time them. And as you mentioned once you hurt a person in boxing is the start of the assault.

As a matter of fact the safest place for a boxer is on the ground once hurt. We had a guy that found that out and rarely got hit more then twice boxing he went for safe haven flop on the mat or grab the arms clinch.

This is something that should be encourage in Combat Martial Arts classes continued attack not flopying that won't save you in most martial arts, maybe TKD.
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#387108 - 03/21/08 10:13 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Neko456]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Loc: Bellingham, WA
So it's safe to say that 'fan sao' is a universal h2h combat principle, yeah? As far as I can tell, WC has, boxing has it, MT, MMA, JKD, some Karate, FMA's, Krav Maga, all have it. I think pretty much everything that doesn't involve throwing like Judo or Aikido and some forms of grappling use such continuous assaults. And that's only because of the different nature of the ranges and techniques in those styles.
Nobody should ever hit once and feel like that's all it takes. Especially in SD, you should be primed to hit again and do so until the opponent is down or has curred out. I consider this one of the most important fundamentals of WC and boxing. And alive training/sparring seems like the only way to really know when to act/react. I don't think 'alive' has to mean full blast concussion-causing, eye-gouging, crotch-stomping bloodbaths. But it sure as hell better not be dancing.

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#387109 - 03/22/08 09:02 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
JKogas Offline
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Nice thread going guys. There's some really good communication going. I'm bumping this one up until I have time to weigh in with a few more thoughts.

Briefly I will add that, the longer that I am alive and training, I am able to see both sides of the argument a lot clearer. In fact, quite often I am able to establish the underlying principles of wing chun within boxing sparring. If I'm correct, principles are truly the main components of any martial discipline.

Part of the issue with me is seeing how so many wing chun people train. It isn't that the art "doesn't work", its that the people themselves, don't "work". Obviously this is true for any art...and has equally been true for folks within the JKD community.

-John

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#387110 - 03/22/08 12:32 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: JKogas]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Registered: 08/27/05
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Loc: Bellingham, WA
Quote:

Part of the issue with me is seeing how so many wing chun people train. It isn't that the art "doesn't work", its that the people themselves, don't "work".




Agreed wholeheartedly.

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#387111 - 03/22/08 02:06 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Neko456]
Prizewriter Offline
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Posts: 2573
The gym I attend is based in a University (though I am not a student) Before Christmas I was on my way to the gym, and I noticed a WC class was on. As I hadn't done any martial arts training in a while, I thought "Screw it, why not?". So I spoke to the instructor and jumped into the class.

I liked the emphasis on relaxation I was shown in the WC class. I also liked something I did called the "Goat Stance", which was a nice workout for my leg muscles.

My boxing experience is far longer. I started training around 9 years ago, and have trained on and off again(whenever I can get the chance really!).

To further add to what has been said about boxing... I would also mention the physical conditioning of boxing. I always found it to be superior to most any other martial art I studied (with the notable exception of Judo).

I always thought that would serve anyone well in a SD situation. If you had to use your boxing to fend off an attacker (assuming you could successfully), and then run away, well, you would likely have the gas in the tank to do so. Or if you had to run, then got caught, you would have the enery to fight back.

I contrast this with the wheezing and coughing that I noticed in some traditional martial arts classes (like WJJF Ju Jitsu and TKD) with the beer belly black belt brigade lol!

Not everyone was like this in those classes, and I know individual fitness is a persons own responsibility, but I think there is a difference between general health and being "fighting fit", if that makes sense!

NB The WJJF Ju Jitsu is a pseudo traditional Ju Jitsu style. It uses a wide range of techniques such from a variety of non-Japanese sources and calls it Ju Jitsu against non-resisting training partners (generally). I AM not referring to Brazilian Jiu Jitsu in the above post!!!!!
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#387112 - 03/22/08 02:30 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Prizewriter]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Quote:

you would likely have the gas in the tank to do so. Or if you had to run, then got caught, you would have the enery to fight back.





While I am never going to say that conditioning is a bad thing, I think it's a bit overrated in terms of self defense.

One of the keys to my view of Martial Arts is the ability of an otherwise overmatched person to defend themselves effectively and that usually is not related to strength or cardio conditioning.

Now, I am not knocking the benifit of fitness, I am simply pointing out there are other elements more important to Self Defense.
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#387113 - 03/23/08 12:53 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Kimo2007]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Food for thought:

check out this clip from the Ricky Hatton/Floyd Mayweather fight last year -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QevWKNM9JWY

Note that Mayweather's 'pitter patter' focus mitt drills were mocked by Hatton. If you saw the fight, you know what happened.
Again, technique is never a substitute for conditioning, but it can be highly effective trained with precision and care at an equitable pace. I guess my point is kind of pro-boxing and pro-wing chun

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#387114 - 03/23/08 05:28 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Kimo2007]
Prizewriter Offline
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What's more important than running away when you are overmatched lol?

When I talk about "fighting fit" I refer to the overall condition of the body, the responsiveness of the muscles used in fight and flight and good reflexes, as well as the ability to take a hit. That is what I mean by "fighting fit". That is what conditioning can help with in my experience. Apologies for not making that clear. I wasn't simply referring to having the ability to run away quickly!
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#387115 - 03/23/08 10:22 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Kimo2007]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Quote:

you would likely have the gas in the tank to do so. Or if you had to run, then got caught, you would have the enery to fight back.





While I am never going to say that conditioning is a bad thing, I think it's a bit overrated in terms of self defense.





I dont a person can be fit enough. A few skillfull powerfull boxers have been beaten by some one who used fitness to their advantage. .

Some one who is fit, can run and has a decent right hand would do well against an all round fighter who isnt so fit.

I think realy though( general-ising here) a person should try to work on all the elements required.

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#387116 - 03/23/08 10:38 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: jude33]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Quote:

A few skillfull powerfull boxers have been beaten by some one who used fitness to their advantage. .





In a sport combat application,fitness plays a much larger role then in a self defense situation.

I am not saying "don be fit" but there are many people out there who are too old, too small or have some other reason why they will not have the fitness advantage in most cases.

I wouldn't recommend these folks get in the ring, but there are plenty of ways they can still defend themselves.
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#387117 - 03/23/08 10:40 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Prizewriter]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Quote:

I refer to the overall condition of the body, the responsiveness of the muscles used in fight and flight and good reflexes




That great and I am all for it, but are you going to do when you are 80?

My point is there is much more to the equation then fitness.
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#387118 - 03/23/08 12:54 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Kimo2007]
JKogas Offline
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Quote:


That great and I am all for it, but are you going to do when you are 80?





Hopefully at 80 I would still have some strength and conditioning from a lifetime of disciplined work.

In a SD situation at 80, I would also hope that I would not have to fight someone much younger and stronger in an empty hand battle. That would be another answer.

I don't give a lot of faith in 80 year olds having to fight empty handed, particularly if they are weak and frail. So I personally believe its moot point to bring that up - although I do understand what you're driving at.


Quote:


My point is there is much more to the equation then fitness.





I would agree with this, though I would add that self-defense also has a lot more to do with NOT going "hands on" either. Its my opinion that if staying safe means having to fight, it'd probably do a lot for our health if we didn't suffer a heart attack in the middle of it.

Who knows.

-John

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#387119 - 03/23/08 01:12 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Kimo2007]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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I am not saying "don be fit" but there are many people out there who are too old, too small or have some other reason why they will not have the fitness advantage in most cases.




Who's too small? Isn't that what weight divisions are for? Besides, the modern boxing gym is much more welcoming of all shapes and sizes these days than the old school 'rocky' type gyms.
And as for age - Sigung Ip Ching is close to 80. Ip Chun is close to 84, but I don't really know much about him. Ip Ching still can scrap though, and the kind of energy you spend time cultivating in WC is VERY apparent when you roll with him. I don't know if that's exactly what most would qualify as fitness in old age, but it's far from frailty or sickness. I'd bet that more life-long boxers don't possess that kind of health due to all the hits that they take throughout their careers. I've also known some old guys who can still throw, even if they walk on a cane.

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#387120 - 03/23/08 01:38 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Quote:

Who's too small? Isn't that what weight divisions are for?




Clearly you are not understanding my point. There are no weight divisions in SD.
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#387121 - 03/23/08 01:49 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: JKogas]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Quote:

Its my opinion that if staying safe means having to fight, it'd probably do a lot for our health if we didn't suffer a heart attack in the middle of it.

Who knows.





Fitness no matter what age or size you are can only be a benifit to you in any circumstance.

Funakoshi was robbed (attempted) when he was in his 80's. If I recall the story correctly it was a well placed cane to the groin that allowed him to escape unharmed.

While I can only assume he was fit for a man his age, I would say his ability to defend himself was not his being more fit then his attacker.

Quote:

In a SD situation at 80, I would also hope that I would not have to fight someone much younger and stronger in an empty hand battle. That would be another answer.




You may hope, but it's the 80 year olds with all those Social Security Checks.

That said I have yet again pulled a thread completly off topic.
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#387122 - 03/23/08 03:53 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Kimo2007]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:







Quote:

In a SD situation at 80, I would also hope that I would not have to fight someone much younger and stronger in an empty hand battle. That would be another answer.




I can see your point. To my mind and personaly my goal is to get as far as I can reach at what I train.

Should I get mugged at 80 and still survive intact then
I more than likely would laugh. Could someone that age successfully defend themselves? I suppose if they keep their condition like the guy below they might have a better chance.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?doci...h&plindex=4

He is about 82 now.

I tend to harp on about him, be good to be his age and still capable.

Jude,

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#387123 - 03/23/08 08:29 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Kimo2007]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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You're right Kimo, I didn't understand what you were getting at.
I'm simply trying to point out that the 'fitness advantage' that you mentioned is subjective from individual to individual, and can be trained within reason at any size or age level. Naturally where fitness would NOT be an advantage (ie a 140 lb. guy vs. a 250 lb), a much higher degree of technique - and probably luck - will have to be utilized. Think we're agreed on that.

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#387124 - 03/24/08 01:54 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
Neko456 Offline
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I agree with Kimo2007 and others that in SD or street fighting fitness is not as important as tenactiy and continued aggression in the assault.

Boxers are in tremendous shape to go multiple rounds but when they can get hit solid they can take a knee, grab and hold w/o getting thrown or take a 8 count, this doesn't exist in SD. I hsve to admit there is some fighting out of trouble in boxing and some in Martial art classes also but boxing does this to the extrem as does Judo/JJ, I believe is good.

But I am pro fitiness because your technique stay sharper if you are not winded. But you have to admit striking arts especially boxing on the ground are out there prime element inclose or on the ground.

WingChun most Martial arts overall arsenal is better, but the use of these weapons often is the prime advantage of boxing they have few but they use them all the time in well trained timed combinations. Not that Wc doesn't in its wooden dummy drills but dummies don't hit back.
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#387125 - 03/24/08 08:14 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Neko456]
Prizewriter Offline
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Glen McCrory, a former world professional crusierweight boxing champion, intervened to save a doorman and a friend from a mob who were attacking him a few years back.

He was caught up in the brawl, and was hit over the head with a weapon (he was hit with a metal bar). He credits his conditioning and experience in boxing as allowing him to stay upright despite taking a terrible blow to the head.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article46809.ece

This is the only article I could find relating to the story.

I understand that in a SD situation a boxer can't take a knee or the ref isn't there to jump in. But boxing conditions a person to deal with being hit with a full blooded punch(es). It de-sensitizes a person to the trauma, both physical and mental, of taking a full blooded hit (should they get hit).

I have seen people sparring for the first time and taking a good shot. Some of them shut down mentally (I did the first time it happened to me), and try to escape while their opponent is still attacking them.

Imagine if the first time a person such as that got hit properly was in a SD situation, and not in a gym. What happens if they mentally shut down in a dangerous situation like that?
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#387126 - 03/24/08 09:04 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Prizewriter]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Quote:

Imagine if the first time a person such as that got hit properly was in a SD situation, and not in a gym. What happens if they mentally shut down in a dangerous situation like that?





Well I think you expanded the definition of fitness to include "mental fitness" when the discussion was really about physical fitness.

I would say what you describe falls into the area of the other aspects of SD that come into play.
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#387127 - 03/24/08 09:46 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Kimo2007]
Prizewriter Offline
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Apologies Kimo, my fault. I was always taught that conditioning was a mental and physical process in boxing. That is what I meant from the get go.

I should've articulated that from the beginning! My bad.
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#387128 - 03/24/08 11:49 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Prizewriter]
Neko456 Offline
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I'd say that has a lot to do with tenacity, luck and of course he'd credit his boxing training to his survival because that's what he was trained in.

But I will say that most Martial arts teaches the possibilities of defense against blunt weapons and would better prepare you for the assault rather then taking it. Of course blind sided or from behind you would get struck but I think its 50/50 you could be staggered by it it could take you out. Nothing really can prepare you for metal against skull except that he doesn't make solid contact.
Lets keep it real.

When you start talking in weapon assults the advantage is to the man with the weapon, but as a defender MA has a great advantage over boxing in that they have some training against a blunt object and boxers have non but reflexes and as you stated absorb impact not good odds.

Lets keep on topic h2h mono mono weapons offensively and defensely puts the odds in WC or MAs favor. Having defended against weapon attacks on the street knowing the possibilties are extremly important.

I'd say that WC still has the most economic approach to striking over boxing but power I'd still give to boxing.
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#387129 - 03/24/08 11:59 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Prizewriter]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Quote:

I was always taught that conditioning was a mental and physical process in boxing.





I hear you, just a downside of trying to communicate in the forum world. But you bring up a good point, IMO mental toughness is even more important in SD then physical toughness.
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#387130 - 03/24/08 06:04 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Kimo2007]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

I was always taught that conditioning was a mental and physical process in boxing.





I hear you, just a downside of trying to communicate in the forum world. But you bring up a good point, IMO mental toughness is even more important in SD then physical toughness.




IMO they go hand in hand. If a person is attacked
or during a confrontation.

First thing the adrenalin dump.
All the emotions that are attached can either drain the system or have the opposite effect. Either way being fit gives an advantage.

If a person is attacked and hit hard what are the effects?

Hurt=
Normaly little sense of pain through adrenalin,
Feeling of being sick
Wants to give up or anger at getting hit fuels the defence even more, again I think fitness plays an important part.

Stunned= Fighing on automatic if at all, untill the head clears, again fitness plays a part and the will to continue
or not as the case might be.

Is it mental toughness in this case defined as the fact through training the body and mind goes on automatic?

I personaly think it is.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/24/08 06:07 PM)

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#387131 - 03/24/08 09:54 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: jude33]
JKogas Offline
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Too much thread drift lately...lets try and stay on topic.

One BIG problem that I've had with "arts" is the teaching of too many techniques vs. simple training/delivery system development. This is often why boxers tend to eat the lunches of wing chun guys.

When you focus on training, particularly "alive" training, what you end up with looks more like MMA than some style.

All we have are tools. Training them with resistance makes them (and we, the individual) work. What doesn't work simply won't play out.

More focus on training rather than technical "accumulation" would do most folks wonders.


-John

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#387132 - 03/25/08 03:59 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: JKogas]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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"This is often why boxers tend to eat the lunches of wing chun guys"

You forgot breakfast, tea and dinner
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#387133 - 03/25/08 12:34 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: JKogas]
Neko456 Offline
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Boxing is good training but pure boxers have limited vision of what a fight could be. Because they train for mid-range encounters and use fewer weapons they use them often and are good with them while you are in their range.

Bare fisted the Wing Chun man is at his best, gloves weaken his blows.

Boxers have good power in gloves and out, if they learn how to hit ungloved.

There are some pluses and minuses in both without refinements.


Edited by Neko456 (03/25/08 12:35 PM)
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#387134 - 03/25/08 03:32 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Neko456]
JKogas Offline
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That begs the question, doesn't everyone wear gloves to train in?

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#387135 - 03/25/08 04:06 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: JKogas]
Neko456 Offline
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Most times but alot of MAs loose who they are (can't feel or trap or check the moves as well) in gloves. As in your dirty boxing it better to wear MMA or fingerless gloves rather then boxing gloves to do that because you want to grab the head and uppercut or whatever.

Wing Chun and I like to grab certain parts of the arm or shoulder or shrit certainly you can't to that with boxing gloves on.

Boxing is more a unclinched match even in close they consider it resting or cheating to tie up without finding punching room. With us its just going into a different range.

Hows is your distance boxing compared to your dirty boxing (I know you're good at that)? Can you handle a good boxer unclinched?

A lot of MAs can't handle a real fast jab w/o attacking the legs, WC is one of the arts that you gotta come better then that because thats what they train for imho.

So yes we train in gloves sometimes, you don't walk around with gloves on so its best to learn to hit without them, even boxers. What do you say?


Edited by Neko456 (03/25/08 04:08 PM)
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#387136 - 03/25/08 04:48 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: JKogas]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Quote:

That begs the question, doesn't everyone wear gloves to train in?




Notably there are things like Kyokushin (and other knockdown Karate perhaps?) that seem to train without gloves.

Obviously you normally remove the head as target if you're going with much intensity, but for better or worse it's pretty common in the Karate world to not use gloves.

I personally think there are merits and downsides to doing both things.

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#387137 - 03/25/08 04:58 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Neko456]
JKogas Offline
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Quote:

Most times but alot of MAs loose who they are (can't feel or trap or check the moves as well) in gloves. As in your dirty boxing it better to wear MMA or fingerless gloves rather then boxing gloves to do that because you want to grab the head and uppercut or whatever.

Wing Chun and I like to grab certain parts of the arm or shoulder or shirt certainly you can't to that with boxing gloves on.





Agreed. I do the same thing when I am boxing. I grab the arm, the neck, underhook the arm, overhook the arm, etc. You can trap to a small degree with boxing gloves on but only for a brief moment. Thats fun though. Normally any trapping is going to occur while wearing the fingerless gloves. Obviously.


Quote:


Boxing is more a unclinched match even in close they consider it resting or cheating to tie up without finding punching room. With us its just going into a different range.

Hows is your distance boxing compared to your dirty boxing (I know you're good at that)? Can you handle a good boxer unclinched?





All things being relative, I like to think that my distance game/long range is decent. I start out there and work a fair bit of counter punching. Of course I'm not just a boxer. I will throw in some leg kicks and savate stuff for good measure. I call the long range the "pot-shotting" distance.

Personally I like to work every range, so hopefully I would fair pretty well against someone who doesn't. We all know its a crapshoot. As soon as I box a better boxer, I'm going to get outboxed. Same is true for anything else. Its why we keep training isn't it?


Quote:


A lot of MAs can't handle a real fast jab w/o attacking the legs, WC is one of the arts that you gotta come better then that because thats what they train for imho.

So yes we train in gloves sometimes, you don't walk around with gloves on so its best to learn to hit without them, even boxers. What do you say?





I think the fast jab should probably be one of the very first things that people learn to deal with. Its fundamental and is something that we teach people how to do within the first week of starting their training. But I find it odd that people training in "martial arts" would have a difficult time vs. a fast jab - yet I agree with you; I believe a lot of folks don't prepare adequately for an aggressive, skilled opponent. This is quite common.

Another thing that people do is that they prepare for a boxing-style "technique", but they don't train vs. a "boxer", etc. There's a difference as I see it. Case in point was a video clip seen here where a wing chun guy was training against a "left hook" (etc). That was it...just a left hook (it could have been ANY one technique). There was no set-up, no footwork, no feinting, no counter punching, etc. Just the left hook. And the guy throwing the left hook was getting his A$$ kicked time after time (it was "scripted" that way...they obviously knew before hand who was going to be the kicker and the kickee). I have a problem with that sort of training. It simply doesn't prepare a person as much as developing the entire standing delivery system would.

But again, I agree. We don't walk around with gloves on. That's for sure. And I believe that if all I person did was train boxing with big gloves on, he/she would certainly not be seeing the entire picture. Then again, the art of boxing isn't limited to it's competitive, rules based expression. With that in mind, I'd like to add that when I use the term "boxer", I'm obviously not just referring to the ring sport athlete. I am referring to anyone who practices stand-up fighting from a core boxing delivery system.

Nice post by the way. I'd like to start more conversation about "trapping" as we go.


-John

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#387138 - 03/25/08 05:01 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
JKogas Offline
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Quote:


Notably there are things like Kyokushin (and other knockdown Karate perhaps?) that seem to train without gloves.

Obviously you normally remove the head as target if you're going with much intensity, but for better or worse it's pretty common in the Karate world to not use gloves.





Agreed. Kyokushinkai was my very first "style" way back in the day..

One thing I would add is that the head should (IMO) be the primary target in a street fight/self-defense situation. Thus removal of the head in a sparring situation would be truly detrimental, wouldn't you say?


Quote:


I personally think there are merits and downsides to doing both things.





Naturally.


-John

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#387139 - 03/25/08 05:24 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: JKogas]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Quote:


One thing I would add is that the head should (IMO) be the primary target in a street fight/self-defense situation. Thus removal of the head in a sparring situation would be truly detrimental, wouldn't you say?





In general yes, but sometimes it is good to #1 not wear gloves, and #2 focus on issues other than just where you are targetting, which is where sparring like this seems to be handy.

It's also detrimental to get used to alot of issues created by larger types of gloves imo, and beyond that sparring of almost any sort has an entirely different rhythm, time frame, etc. than a real self defense situation anyway, even MMA sparring is very different from this.


So the best you can do (imho) is a decent range of sparring and drills that address the things you need, while being aware of the flaws that exist with any of them.

basically though, all sparring has flaws that don't exist in a real situation.

Not to get preachy, but if someone's really that concerned about self defense anyway, whether or not someone includes the head as the target should be lower on the list of concerns than alot of other things imo.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/25/08 05:30 PM)

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#387140 - 03/25/08 05:29 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
JKogas Offline
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Quote:


basically though, all sparring has flaws that don't exist in a real situation.





Mind elaborating on this a bit? I would still like to weigh in on a few of your other comments but I don't have time. Gotta hit the gym. Back later folks!

-John

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#387141 - 03/25/08 05:37 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: JKogas]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Quote:

Quote:


basically though, all sparring has flaws that don't exist in a real situation.





Mind elaborating on this a bit? I would still like to weigh in on a few of your other comments but I don't have time. Gotta hit the gym. Back later folks!

-John




Honestly I don't see much to elaborate on, go watch someone get assualted, it doesn't look or feel anything like sparring, MMA or otherwise.

Different sparring can give you skills to deal with it certainly, but that doesn't mean they have a one to one relationship by any stretch.

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#387142 - 03/25/08 05:41 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
JKogas Offline
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From what I have seen, street fights don't look anywhere NEARLY as clean and precise as do MMA fights. Thus, becoming good at MMA sparring would tend to create more functional use of technique FOR street fighting.

Sparring is simply fighting. Again, perhaps its just that the people you normally see in street fights aren't as skilled. Maybe that explains why you see things differently.

Just a thought.

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#387143 - 03/25/08 05:50 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: JKogas]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Quote:

From what I have seen, street fights don't look anywhere NEARLY as clean and precise as do MMA fights. Thus, becoming good at MMA sparring would tend to create more functional use of technique FOR street fighting.

Sparring is simply fighting. Again, perhaps its just that the people you normally see in street fights aren't as skilled. Maybe that explains why you see things differently.

Just a thought.




I don't view "fighting" and "self defense" as synonymous.

Most people who want to hurt you aren't gonna "fight" you, they are gonna do everything to stack the deck in their favor to not have to fight you, and still come out on top.

Doesn't mean that MMA (or anything else) can't help, but it does mean there's no one to one relationship between MA and self defense IMO.

If what you're after is me saying "yes MMA guys can defend themselves better than anyone" then i'm not gonna agree, if what you are saying is that "live" training scenarios can aid in physical self defense, I agree with that.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/25/08 05:54 PM)

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#387144 - 03/25/08 06:00 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
JKogas Offline
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Quote:


I don't view "fighting" and "self defense" as synonymous.




I agree and I don’t either. In fact, I don’t use the term “self-defense” preferring instead to use the term, “self-preservation”. I think it’s more appropriate for the context outside of “fighting”. I mean, if we have to go hands on, we’ve really screwed the pooch earlier up the line, so to speak.

Quote:


Most people who want to hurt you aren't gonna "fight" you, they are gonna do everything to stack the deck in their favor to not have to fight you, and still come out on top.




Anyone would do this…even in MMA. They want to win, they don’t want a close fight that might go to a decision against them. They are going to do anything and everything to come out on top. But of course, that’s MMA.

What you’re talking about is people not “having to fight you” and still “come out on top”. But you’re really being somewhat vague here. I’m imagining you’re talking about sucker attacks, etc. Of course, it’s hard to sucker punch someone who’s aware and isn’t allowing you to get the jump on you, etc. What then? All comes down to skill in application doesn’t it? Or else, not getting involved at all. Right?


Quote:


Doesn't mean that MMA (or anything else) can't help, but it does mean there's no one to one relationship between MA and self defense IMO.




Forgive me for being stupid and unclear as to what you mean by no “one to one” relationship between MMA and self-defense. Are you talking about multiple attackers or something else? I’m not following you here.


Quote:


If what you're after is me saying "yes MMA guys can defend themselves better than anyone" then i'm not gonna agree, if what you are saying is that "live" training scenarios can aid in physical self defense, I agree with that.






I don’t view things stylistically. MMA of course isn’t a style. It’s another tool like anything else. And of course everyone involved in MMA trains “alive”, which is completely necessary from a skill based perspective.

Sure, self-defense/preservation comes down to a lot of things that aren’t found within the sporting realm. However, that isn’t where I’m headed with this. One’s brain is his biggest weapon by far. I would prefer that to a solid left jab any day of the week.

Keep it coming though. I’m enjoying this conversation.

-John

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#387145 - 03/25/08 06:20 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: JKogas]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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John, basically what I am saying that there is little correlation between the way real physical violence seems to go down, and the stuff people do in the dojo/gym/whatever.

In the end ALL (everything from MMA to the SCA) training is anachronistic to real violence, if it wasn't it wouldn't be training anymore.

Anyway, i'm not sure what else to say, I respect your opinions greatly, but I feel you just want to turn this into a conversation where we insist that wing chun is simply inferior for self defense, not only do I not agree, I think you're being as doctrinaire in that appraisal as the quote that started the thread.

Conversations like this always end up with each side painting what is in reality a wide spectrum of practices with one brush, "wing chun" is not a single entity anymore than boxing is.

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#387146 - 03/25/08 09:48 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
JKogas Offline
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Quote:

John, basically what I am saying that there is little correlation between the way real physical violence seems to go down, and the stuff people do in the dojo/gym/whatever.





I would do you one further and say that there is NO “one way” that real physical violence goes down, other than it is 1) Physical and 2) Violent. It is my opinion that those things and everything else can be prepared for. That’s all we’re doing bro.

Would you label me a “sport” guy by any chance? I’m just trying to see where you’re coming from.


Quote:


In the end ALL (everything from MMA to the SCA) training is anachronistic to real violence, if it wasn't it wouldn't be training anymore.





How so? I’m curious to hear your take.


Quote:


Anyway, i'm not sure what else to say, I respect your opinions greatly, but I feel you just want to turn this into a conversation where we insist that wing chun is simply inferior for self defense, not only do I not agree, I think you're being as doctrinaire in that appraisal as the quote that started the thread.





Then you’ve simply failed to understand what I’m saying. I didn’t say “wing chun” doesn’t work. I said that most of the wing chun that I have ever seen when compared to the boxing that I have seen, has had inferior training methods. That would be MY opinion based on what I have observed, and that is beyond dispute. When I traveled, I checked schools out all the time, wherever I happened to be. After a while, you begin to see the same things repeated over and over, regardless of locale. You begin to think it’s universal. Of course, I’m not saying that either. Again, I’m merely providing my opinion based upon my experiences and observations. Nothing more, nothing less.

I find it odd however that many others in the know have experienced exactly the same things. These people I’ve spoken with live across the US and the world. Of course at the end of the day, it’s nothing but more opinions. They are like noses.

But I believe you may have missed other things I have said as well. Just to be fair; I have mentioned in several posts using the same tools as wing chun. Sure I keep it simple, but I’ve used trapping and do all the time. I’ve used chain punching. All we have are tools at the end of the day. It’s a matter of how functionally we develop them, IMO. I’ve said that time and again.


Quote:


Conversations like this always end up with each side painting what is in reality a wide spectrum of practices with one brush, "wing chun" is not a single entity anymore than boxing is.





Of course, but conversation is exactly what these forums are all about. That’s all we’re doing here. I’m not arguing with you so much as presenting my opinions. You’re doing the same thing. The idea is to continue to do this in order to expel misconceptions and to further clarify what each side of this debate is saying, so that we might paint a clearer picture.

I’m not here to say that you or anyone else is “wrong”. More often, I end up having to dispel misconceptions that others have about ME or, my personal approach to training. Somehow people always jump to the conclusion that “I’m just a sport guy…

Anyway. Cheers.

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#387147 - 03/25/08 10:08 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: JKogas]
GansuKid Offline
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For the most part I would agree with people who say that in "general" Boxer's are better than Wing Chun'ers. However I've seen the oppisite too. I've seen some Wing Chun people that were very good and most boxers that I've seen could stand against either... (unless they could integrate kicking and take downs. Something most boxers can't do... They can Clinch real good but.....

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#387148 - 03/25/08 11:09 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: GansuKid]
Neko456 Offline
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I believe that a boxer clinch leaves too much room for knees and elbows, the revised MMA or Judo/Greco Wrestling clinch is closer and holds the elbows in better. In this close WC would have an advantage imo.

And I believe Jokgas WC/JKD training aids his evaluation of which Clinch or trappng works best from him. He had to start from a base.

Most boxers advantage is in quicker footwork, power and diverse angles of punches especially hooking techniques at the corner of center line. WC handles most heavy straight techniques well in my opinon.

Its my opinion WC is the better street art if the guys any good at all, so I agree with ZZ if trained properly.

I never really seen many pro boxers street fight thats rare because their gambling on valuable goods. I didn't see it but Tyson is just a poor case and a exception.

But I have seen ex-golden gloves street fight quick, fast and effective the are subject to holds, sweeps, throws or techniques they are unfamilar with. WCist are familar with most of these method.

A boxers quickness, precision and power is his strength, limited view of what could be is his flaws IMHO.
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#387149 - 03/26/08 07:31 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Neko456]
JKogas Offline
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From what I'm seeing, it depends on the type of clinch that a boxer does as to whether or not he's vulnerable. It also depends on the person doing it. The double overhook is a common clinch in boxing, and its risky because you give up the inside/center position with it (however it a wrestlers world, that's a salto).

Funny how the longer I've wrestled and boxed, the more I'm seeing the utility of certain trapping scenarios, whereas before I couldn't pull it off no matter what against either type of player.

I believe the reason for that is because I have more depth in the three delivery systems that I talk so much about. Without these delivery systems in place, all you're doing is collecting "moves". As has been said by others, moves are like bullets, delivery systems are the guns. If you don't have a decent gun, just training moves would be the equivalent of picking up bullets and throwing them at someone. And THAT is the primary reason why I believe the wing chun that I've observed doesn't fly. What it all falls down to is that people are basically putting the cart in front of the horse when it comes to training. From my perspective, this is particularly true with the majority of non-western martial arts.

Now that doesn't mean that is always the case. Again, this is just from my own observations, though many, many others describe the same things.

And it isn't that these systems can't "work". Hell, I'm getting some Silat to work that I never thought could in a million years (and which I used to practice for years, like everyone else did - using dead patterns). They definitely can. But again the key IMO is, what foundation are you operating from?

Using the "generic MMA" structure provides the three core delivery platforms that I believe should be firmly in place as fundamentals. And you don't even have to be world class (though it helps ). If you had basic boxing, basic wrestling and a basic ground game (jiu-jitsu), these other arts would DEFINITELY come more alive.

And to quote Dennis Miller, "But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong."


-John

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#387150 - 03/26/08 12:19 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: JKogas]
Neko456 Offline
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I also feel that most boxers stand too straight subjecting themselves to reaps, sweeps and throws. The purpose is to hide their chin on your shoulder or place weight upon you when they clinch which is prime for the above actions. The other Clinches even the Judo clinch one only needs to drop a hand to check the knee and they are loaded but away so you have to move in to reap.

I agree that the more stable your platform the more you can add options. I find it amusing that you have strayed from JKD and yet come to the same conclusion that Silat/Kali works if applied properly. I also find it strange that one that profuse so much to live training can still be able to apply techniques from a dance/Silat patterns. Thats open minded good imo.

When you say traps are you meaning checks, like placing your glove on a guys arm so he has to strike around it or pull away to strike? Or acutal grabs and holds so you can strike or manuerver?

WC wider option of what could be gives it the nod in SD to me. Put both in a ring gloved under rules is like asking a dolphin to fight a great white, its the boxers enviroment but I think you should train in gloves against live continous assaults.

When I talk boxer I'm talking pure boxers not just a delivery system, just like there would be a difference in a WC man that practice BJJ or Thai boxing he would have a inside outside or outside med range game.

Any additional training gives both an added advantages.

When you look at how long it takes to able to use each principle boxing has an advantage and WC is considered a quick learned Gung-fu. In 6-9 months you got a fair boxer, WC guy would be just learning his application, imo.


Edited by Neko456 (03/26/08 12:21 PM)
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#387151 - 03/26/08 12:34 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

John, basically what I am saying that there is little correlation between the way real physical violence seems to go down, and the stuff people do in the dojo/gym/whatever.




I cant quite understand that statement. Why?
Have you ever heard of animal day? My training is so I dont (or at least mimimise the chance to) get injured if attacked. Exceptions given but keep them to a minimum.
If you google Geoff Thompson there might be more

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?doci...h&plindex=0

If you cant see the correlation then what exactly are you expecting? Why exactly do you train?
It would be good if that was explained in detail?
Surely if such training isnt covered in any manner then it is then up to the individual to seek out someone like Geoff Thompson and train with them?


I think the problem I have with things like wing chun is when I see a top practioner in a MMA competiton not using any form of trapping or anything that remotely looks like wing chun as per the video I posted in the karate thread.

Then when I ask why? different answers?

Jude

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#387152 - 03/27/08 11:15 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: jude33]
Neko456 Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

ZZ stated - John, basically what I am saying that there is little correlation between the way real physical violence seems to go down, and the stuff people do in the dojo/gym/whatever.





I cant quite understand that statement. Why?
Have you ever heard of animal day? My training is so I dont (or at least mimimise the chance to) get injured if attacked.

If you cant see the correlation then what exactly are you expecting? Why exactly do you train?
It would be good if that was explained in detail?

I think the problem I have with things like wing chun is when I see a top practioner in a MMA competiton not using any form of trapping or anything that remotely looks like wing chun as per the video I posted in the karate thread.

Then when I ask why? different answers?

Jude



------------------------
ZZ - I think that MMA is pretty close to real fighting without the violence and intent to do real serious damage. It's explosive and surprising that even skill fighters if they make a mistake can be taken out with a combination. I do agree it doesn't have the element of survival as a priority, viciousness, intent and vendendata that self defense has but it's pretty darn close for training purpose to range that maybe required. In saying this I see your point also close but not really.

Jude33 I think that MMA has its own style of fighting its hard to work only WC principles against multiple method of assault, I mean you maybe using a Bong-Sau to deflect but your counter still looks like boxing. I think it's hard to use any 1 system in a MMA ring even Karate or Kung-fu looks like a slugfest into a takedown because thats what done, if you don't want to punch it out.

I mean really MMA boxing looks like a hybred version of boxing the stance is different to protect against leg kicks and take downs. Not to mention infighting is totally different so its not just Wing Chun that changes once in the MMA ring.


Edited by Neko456 (03/27/08 11:18 AM)
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#387153 - 03/27/08 04:26 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Neko456]
Stormdragon Offline
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JK, just curious, are you of the opinion that old time bare knuckle boxing was a less refined, and less effective version of modern boxing or just different because of the different rules but equal?
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#387154 - 03/27/08 04:49 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Stormdragon]
Neko456 Offline
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Rules make the fight I have no doubt watching the old boxing masters that todays Pro boxers are more refined as any art it does get better technically. But does that mean that the modren spoiled pampered boxing stars could fight 30-40-70-90 rounds with someone that knocked you down stood over you to knock you down again.

You can see why groundfighting kicking, bitting, butting, spitting and scrachting use to be a part of old world boxing hell it was the only way to get up!

Refine is the key word here I think todays boxers are more refine, could they fight with the old guys, pending whose rules the match was govern by.

Imagine 20-30-40-70-90 rounds bare knuckles hell I quit I'm from the 21st Century a sissy compared to those GIANTs 70 rounds hell thats a life time of beat down, hey I'm tired just thinking about that many rounds.


Edited by Neko456 (03/27/08 04:50 PM)
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#387155 - 03/28/08 11:25 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Neko456]
donchisau Offline
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Lots of good stuff about training etc but so far no one is really talking about wing chun. wing chun isnt shapes. its not tan,bong, chain punch etc. Wing chun is about how to use the body. I know everyone thinks they know wing chun but there are large parts of the method missing. Most videos out there are just using wing chun shapes. Most wing chun that is taught is just the external shapes with maybe some lip service paid to body unity. Every thing is done to train speed and trap yet you almost never see any videos of this training being used against trained resisting people. You usally see something that looks like bad kickboxing. The reason is that they have only trained the external shapes.

Wing Chun is meant to be very mobile ,loose and relaxed. How often do you see wing chun done in this manner. Usually all you see is a static posed man sau stance and then forward stepping with fast chain punches followed by some type of follow up usually and elbow or a low kick. This application of wing chun will always have a problem when dealing with trained fighters whether they be boxers or MMA types.

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#387156 - 03/28/08 12:24 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: donchisau]
Neko456 Offline
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Maybe but how do you think WC relates to boxing as a power delivery system? Even in its most rough and tumble state gloved boxing will rip through a WC guy most times because of its compact and efficient method of delievery. Boxing and Karate imo has a more powerful delivery system, gloved.

Out of gloves and not using boxing rules is a different environment and the natural weapons of WC should prevail if you can get into a near clinch or clinch range or callapse a knee or hip joint, unless a mixed boxer he wouldn't know how to deal from there. But out at mid-range the boxers mobility & ability to reach outside in toward the center line at odd angles could hurt the strick ridged by comparison Wing Chun man imo.

This is from the mix matches I've witnessed. WC is good stuff but so is boxing, both has there strengths and weaknesses.


Edited by Neko456 (03/28/08 12:31 PM)
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#387157 - 03/28/08 01:19 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Neko456]
donchisau Offline
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Just for a little background for my opinions. My old training partner was a former pro boxer. In addition one of the best known boxing/mma gyms in the country is on the same block. We have open mat time on the weekends and folks from there often stop by to play around a bit.
The wing chun you are talking about is exactly what I am referring to. Wing chun relies on proper use of the lower body. wing chun power generation compares very well vs boxing methods. The methods are different and it is much easier to learn boxing methods I think. Actually wing chun is supposed to be compact . You want to get up the other persons shirt.
Another thing folks forget is that covering is the basis for wing chun fighting. Most wing chun people dont seem to do this. Wing chun is very mobile so a boxers mobility should not be an issue.
I will say that since my wing chun is different than most of the Yip Man based wing chun you see so my perspective is different.

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#387158 - 03/28/08 08:02 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: donchisau]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Right, the mobility looks different though - you don't move unless it's NECESSARY, while boxing involves varying degrees of dancing around. At least in the ring. I think the one thing I like better about WC's version of 'mobility' is that if you stay focused, you cannot be faked out. Think of it like this - A WC fighter is in standard WC guard (Wu Sao, Man sao, square stance) facing off with a boxer who skips around and circles, looking for a way in. Eventually, someone is going to have to hit first. If it's the boxer, he may try to set up a combo by using a feint of some sort, but the WC guy - if he's good - will deflect the feint and attack the same way as if it were an outright jab/cross. If the boxer's guard goes up it is moved, continue attack. If he counter attacks, the WC guy uses his hand boxing techniques as quickly and instinctively as needed and continues attack. Attacks should of course not be just 'chanin punching' (which i really don't believe in at all), but a totally invasive, adaptive assault that utterly destroys the opponent's structure, thus destroying them. Boxers on the other hand may over-strategize, spending too much time resetting and trying different tactics to get in.
Hopefully, this type of fighting does not commence in SD situations, but style can certainly be an entrapment.

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#387159 - 03/28/08 09:56 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Stormdragon]
JKogas Offline
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Stormdragon wrote:
Quote:

JK, just curious, are you of the opinion that old time bare knuckle boxing was a less refined, and less effective version of modern boxing or just different because of the different rules but equal?





Old time boxing had nothing that the modern science has in terms of defense, evasive movement, footwork, etc. In that sense I would say it was definitely less refined. However as everything is relative, I’m sure there were some tough, tough fighters back in those days that would have been able to stand with anyone.

The thing is, we simply have better knowledge in this modern age. We have better athletes because we understand more about the science of training. I think this has done more to improve combat sports than “techniques and moves”. But to be quite honest, all we can do is speculate because none of us lived back in the day of John L. Sullivan.

Its very difficult to compare eras, and I don’t really want to. However I will say that I’m going to stay with the modern delivery system and pass on the old time one.

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#387160 - 03/28/08 10:22 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Neko456]
JKogas Offline
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Neko456 wrote
Quote:

I also feel that most boxers stand too straight subjecting themselves to reaps, sweeps and throws. The purpose is to hide their chin on your shoulder or place weight upon you when they clinch which is prime for the above actions. The other Clinches even the Judo clinch one only needs to drop a hand to check the knee and they are loaded but away so you have to move in to reap.





If we’re talking “pure” boxing, I’d say that their stance is to narrow as well making them more vulnerable to takedowns. You also can’t stand in the middle distance and just unload either. Your combos should probably not go beyond three or four at most. In boxing, obviously you can get away with throwing a lot more. In a no rules setting, that’s going to get you taken down.


Quote:


….I find it amusing that you have strayed from JKD and yet come to the same conclusion that Silat/Kali works if applied properly.





Well truthfully I really haven’t strayed from JKD. You could say that I’ve strayed from the Jun Fan core, but honestly, I believe I’m closer to the true spirit of JKD than I have ever been in my life.

In terms of kali-silat or any OTHER style; its all movement and body mechanics. The key is proper, athletic training methods and resistance. Once the delivery systems fundamentals are in place, you can do a lot of things that may have been virtually impossible before. I’m sure a fellow like Randy Couture can make silat work to a higher degree than a silat “master” could. And that’s not an exaggeration. The reason is because he has that close range/clinch delivery system in place. He (or anyone really) could add anything into the clinch and make it work because of that very fact.

So yes I think a lot of the movements in kali-silat can work because they’re just movements. Practice them in a dead manner though and you’re going to get pasted when you try them in sparring. Practice them from the standpoint of an alive delivery system and now you’ll see the openings and have the timing to take advantage of the technique.

I’ve hit the kenjit, putar kepala, foot traps and several other footsweeps during sparring sessions. It’s starting to come together a bit more for me. Not that I’m trying to do “silat” mind you….I’m really just working movements. Again that’s really all we have.


Quote:


I also find it strange that one that profuse so much to live training can still be able to apply techniques from a dance/Silat patterns. Thats open minded good imo.





Well, lets remember that these movements are body mechanics that were put into dance/forms as an AFTERTHOUGHT! It wasn’t the “dance” that gave me the ability to perform them…it was the timing and body mechanics that I developed through boxing and wrestling in the clinch. I’ve never done the jurus and other forms. Hell, I’ve not performed a kata in well over 20 years! (and I can STILL fight somewhat well….imagine that, lol!)


Quote:


When you say traps are you meaning checks, like placing your glove on a guys arm so he has to strike around it or pull away to strike? Or acutal grabs and holds so you can strike or manuerver?




Both really. Checking is done all the time by just getting to certain positions on the inside. Trapping by utilizing underhooks and overhooks, collar ties, etc.. Even wrist pummeling and hand fighting are always coming into play, but more from a Greco-Roman perspective. Grab and hit…its not overly complicated.



Quote:


When I talk boxer I'm talking pure boxers not just a delivery system, just like there would be a difference in a WC man that practice BJJ or Thai boxing he would have a inside outside or outside med range game.





I understood where you were coming from. I just wanted to clarify to all that I look outside the boxing, “box” and expand it a little to include more things. The hands are definitely still boxing.


-John

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#387161 - 03/29/08 02:36 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
Neko456 Offline
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You put the boxer in a shell assuming he will over strategize and just move around.

Lets assume that they are both good fighters WC jab like lefts and rights are fast and compact but are not going compare punch for punch with the power of a boxer especially in gloves if there is a trade the boxer will win, eaisly if the WC guy isn't use to that kind of contact.

Out of gloves say in a SD as I stated its different the trade is the same I just feel that you can recover faster from a smashed nose then bil-gee to the eyes or throat, escpeically followed by a trip or leg destruction kick thats just my opinion.

But the abililty to asorb non vital target strikes (that happen more often then not) unless an exceptional durable WC man goes to the boxer because of his conditioning and training. The acception of some contact or hits to non vital area opens up counters for heavier counters.

Hopefully this not seen a slight on WC hopefully I given it its due also. This is just my opinion gloved WC doesn't hit as hard as Boxing and is too ridgetic.

Jokgas how are Greco wrestling traps done? And how are they differ then WC/JKD traps sounds more like Judo stance boxer clinches modified, rather then a temporaily limb immobilizing technique, so you can strike.

Whats your O on Boxer vs. WC punching power comparsion? From a felt impact point of view. I felt gloved the boxer hits harder, maybe WC short & faster maybe. Boxers load up WC don't.


Edited by Neko456 (03/29/08 02:36 AM)
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#387162 - 03/29/08 09:14 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Neko456]
JKogas Offline
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Quote:


...how are Greco wrestling traps done? And how are they differ then WC/JKD traps sounds more like Judo stance boxer clinches modified, rather then a temporaily limb immobilizing technique, so you can strike.





The “traps” are just the various ways of attaining the control tie-ups. The bicep ties, underhooks, overhooks, wrist control, collar ties all lend themselves to the striking game very effectively.

If you gain the underhook on one side and a bicep tie on the other, you immobilize both arms and with leg positioning, you can control the opponent’s body. This allows you to steer him around and strike while preventing him from doing the same.


Quote:


Whats your O on Boxer vs. WC punching power comparsion? From a felt impact point of view. I felt gloved the boxer hits harder, maybe WC short & faster maybe. Boxers load up WC don't.





Boxers don’t throw from their centerline the way many WC guys do. I think they get more power from their hips as a result. They can hit harder because of the gloves as well which protect the hands somewhat. I’d give the edge in punching to boxers hands down because it’s what they do. IMO, I don’t think there is ANY art better than boxing for learning how to punch someone.

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#387163 - 03/29/08 12:34 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: JKogas]
GansuKid Offline
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I think the question of power is moot. Because it depends on the person. I have sparred both and felt some solid stuff from either style.

The dynamic factor of wing chun IMO is in quick successive short range strikes that stun or worse. Once stunned your defense breaks down quick (or becomes non-existent)

I know that when sparring and I get a good shot and my bell gets rung, I'm stunned for a half second or so.... It seems to me that Wing Chun's Chain punching (and techniques than stem/roll off of that strategy) seem more efficient than boxing for taking advantage of the situation.

Boxing may have the power but do away with gloves and its hard to cover up from a guy who is dominating your center line unless you retrograde.

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#387164 - 03/29/08 08:32 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: GansuKid]
Neko456 Offline
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I don't think that size has that much to do with some welterweights and most middleweight boxers hits pretty hard, WCers hit hard but don't torque their body much so delievery wise they don't hit as hard. You mentioned stun being stun for a boxer is just boxing, he is going to give back.

This maybe just me but from my experience chain punuching works on people not use to being punched or hit. The power comes from the body moving forward and the punch driving out in short circluar motions. A power over hand right or upppercut ends all that side steping hook or right cross ends all that in combo. Alot of boxers will take a jab on top of the forehead to get in a heavy counter. People that are not afriad of contact chain punching aren't a good exchange with hip torque punuchers. IMO.

To me WC hardest punch is the jutting pulling sliding forward punch.

I agree the full arsenal of WC gives it an advantage on the street out of gloves, but from the waist up except for elbows and finger jabs, boxers hands are more powerful, imo.

Jokgas the Greco trap as you call it sounds like something I'd like to explorer hitting and not getting hit without alot of footwork or head movement sounds like Me since I'm getting old. I like the duck under they do to get behind to do the arm lift throws over the shoulder throw Suplex its call I believe, reminds of Judos belt throws.

I agree mechanics of the punuch means a lot, 1st only counts if its a percises finger jab or points in a tournament.
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#387165 - 03/29/08 09:29 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Neko456]
GansuKid Offline
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Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 36
Being from Detroit and having boxed at the Kronx, I don't quite agree with this statement

" maybe just me but from my experience chain punuching works on people not use to being punched or hit."

I've spent time in front of solid Wing Chun guys who were just as effective as guys down at the Kronx (i.e with thier hands..)

I also don't think the statement is quite accurate either....lol...."You mentioned stun being stun for a boxer is just boxing, he is going to give back."

And... "Alot of boxers will take a jab on top of the forehead to get in a heavy counter. People that are not afriad of contact chain punching aren't a good exchange with hip torque punuchers." This makes no sense....

Take the gloves off or use 4oz MMA gloves... Who here can take a solid shot on the forehead? From a jab yea but most wing Chun guys don't jab. And throwing a jab in a real fight against someone who knows the ground game just initiates a takedown.

Stunned is stunned...


Edited by GansuKid (03/29/08 09:33 PM)

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#387166 - 03/29/08 09:47 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: GansuKid]
Neko456 Offline
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All I can say is your experience are different then mines WC has its advanatges and so does boxing. From my past experience boxers hit harder then WCers. From my experience boxers take a punche better then WCs or Martial artist because of their conditioning and training.

Chain punching is not WCs strongest attack and without body torque feels like solid jabs gloved. Nothing like a full right cross or a hook. True ungloved that can bust you up bare knuckle even knock some out, but not with the effect of a full torquing right hand or left hook.

You mentioned ungloved I agree WC hits harder ungloved but not as hard as a person torquing his body, its just body mechanics. Argue with phyisic.


Edited by Neko456 (03/29/08 09:54 PM)
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#387167 - 03/29/08 10:25 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Neko456]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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"WCers hit hard but don't torque their body much so delievery wise they don't hit as hard."

Huh? What do you think Yiu Ma is? A good wing chun punch will be EVERY BIT as hard as a boxer's WITH the added advantage that it is not loaded up for. I'm sorry, but if WC schools don't work on this kind of punch, then they suck. Seriously. WC IS a punching art. The 3 empty handed forms are called the 'BOXING forms' in HK for a good reason.
I don't really care though. I sincerely HOPE people think I practice weak punches if they ever decide to try me on.
I don't want to dismiss or disrespect anyone's training, I really don't... but if you're learning how to punch with only 'stun' or 'light damage' results, ESPECIALLY in an SD sense, than you should really question the logic of what you're learning.

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#387168 - 03/30/08 01:14 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
GansuKid Offline
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Neko456 for the record I don’t do Wing Chun (So hopefully you won’t think I’m bias towards Wing Chun) On a whole I would have to agree that Boxers take and give better than most Wing Chun’ers. But there are some solid Kwoons out there that really mix it up. Again, for the record I have sparred against both and I will state I do agree with a lot of what you have said.

When I’ve sparred against Wing Chun guys they use chain punching like Boxers use the jab. Just as Shikataganai reference, the punches go off unloaded and zip like a machine gun. Usually followed up by something malicious. I personally have been stunned and dropped by an attack started with chain punches. (I’m not noted for having a glass jaw …. it was set up with a nice [well timed] front kick that checked my forward momentum and left me flat footed.

ShikataGaNai….For the record those chain punches nearly took my head off and felt no different than walking into a combo started with a hard jab and a cross.

IMO Wing Chun is a martial art just as viable as Boxing. I think there is this stigma that boxing is better due to the “appearance” that the sport of MMA uses boxing as there main stand up attack. I’m not sure they heavy hitters of MMA qualify as boxers or qualify as having boxing skills.

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#387169 - 03/30/08 01:50 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: GansuKid]
JKogas Offline
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Quote:

I think there is this stigma that boxing is better due to the “appearance” that the sport of MMA uses boxing as there main stand up attack. I’m not sure they heavy hitters of MMA qualify as boxers or qualify as having boxing skills.





They use the boxing delivery system but it isn't quite the same as the ring sport of boxing. Too many other variable to make it so.

I am certainly not antagonistic to wing chun. I just don't have much faith in the validity of it's training methods.

MMA is an excellent crucible for technique, yet you see little "wing chun" in competition, in any event. Where is the chain punching? It simply doesn't exist. Do you know why? Because you'll get taken down in a New York minute when you try it.

Is isn't that I believe that it can't work in MMA, it just hasn't. There are reasons why and I've mentioned one of them.


-John

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#387170 - 03/30/08 02:28 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
Neko456 Offline
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I'm not a WCer I respect the art but I don't think there system of delievery is as strong as some system that torque the body and use the hips and shoulders. By the way I hit pretty hard with almost any strike, I've trained with Wcers and mostly am impressed with there lower body work and short hand to elbows use almost like my base.

Ungloved and full arsenal it makes a potent SD system giving it, its due but being fair and I want it noted this just my opinion that boxers hit harder. Now I'm not saying WCer's can't punuch I'm saying they rely on speed and short compact strikes which most time aren't as hard as full torquing strikes.

I like WC/JKD and compact striking arts but I don't think just using body mechanics of each method they hit as hard as most. JKD can't be bottle neck with this because they use anything that works Boxing, Thai boxing and Silat, anything that works for them, even a little WC nowdays.
I know it use to be its base but not much anymore do, you know why? Maybe because it doesn't hit as hard as most.

Why do you think WC hits as hard as Boxing body Mechanic wise? Help me out.

Jokgas is right most WCers that fight MMA look like modified boxers, I wonder why? Of course TKDer or Karatakas fighters that fight MMA look like mod-boxers so that might be a in Roman do as the Roman thing.

I question does big guys punuch as hard as mid and smaller WCers because its all base on speed and snap, usually a big guy isn't as fast as a smaller one. The big WCers I've sparred aren't as good to me as the Smaller faster ones, of course the smaller guys were of higher ranked and skill. So this might be a mute point except that sometimes a tall guy gives up his reach wanting to fight too close like WC does. Of course I sure there are some tall guys that got it down.

Some of this is my assumptions by all mean straighten me out. I want to know.

I remember Chinese WCers that partictated in the bare fisted full powered body punching, sweeps and throws allowed full powered head kicking tourney in Japan it was pitiful. There were some other weak performances but all of these WC guys were weak. The people I know here are alot stronger then them, of course this was event in the 80s. I shouldn't have mentioned this but it is an example weak barefisted WC. The WC in and around me is alot more potent then that.


Edited by Neko456 (03/30/08 02:48 AM)
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#387171 - 03/30/08 02:50 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Neko456]
Neko456 Offline
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Ignore that comment about the 80s Kyoushinkia (<-sp?)tourney it was just a tournament not self defense. I feel bad mentioning it and it made a mute point, but still an example of lack of power in their delievery system.

The thing that I see is WC produces various artist of different strengths and weakness just like any Martail Art.
But I don't think its ever been known for its power but for efficient and short range application.

I hold to this why is it that JKD have moved away from WC as a its main striking system? I know that WCers don't think much of JKD but still the question remain why(generalize stated I know, search your heart). I do assume alot but I listen to them talk, JKD is bastardize mess some say. I believe its the father of MMA of the west of course the Greek didn't 1st.

Some people make a big deal that Bruce Lee started in WC, this true so why did he devises JKD and held western boxing so highly was it because of its power and mobility?

Just throwing some bones out to maul around, Please forgive me for the 80s' tournament statement it was early in the mourning. Like you maybe thinking what the hell does that have to do it your WC, I agree totally.


Edited by Neko456 (03/30/08 02:54 PM)
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#387172 - 03/30/08 07:43 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Neko456]
GansuKid Offline
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Why should we (the readers) excuse honest attempts to compare and contrast WC to Boxing... Although I initially disagreed with some of your earlier posts, your last few have been dead on. IMO shows forethought

The 80s Kyoushinkia tournament ( Interesting….I wasn’t aware it was in the 1980’s I thought more like the mid 70’s) The weight class I thought was a bit one sided. IMO It seemed to me (on viewing it on Youtube) that the size and weight difference favored the Kyoushin.

I much more like the Taikken-Kyoushin matches on Youtube. The contests seem balanced with Yi Quan giving as good as it got

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#387173 - 03/30/08 10:09 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Neko456]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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"I know that WCers don't think much of JKD but still the question remain why(generalize stated I know, search your heart)"

I think alot of WCers are honestly threatened by the JKD concept because it forces them to do something most schools don't normally teach - to use their own minds. However, going FROM JKD to WC has given me a different perspective - that it is really, REALLY difficult to stick with and master one system of fighting. In the end, ANY system becomes 'JKD' because you learn how to use that system unorthodoxically. I think WC lends itself particularly well to this progression, believe it or not. You're just not going to get that through the bigger organizations out there though (I really don't need to name them).
I can't stress enough how important punching power really SHOULD be in WC. I've also never been taught 'chain punching', as it usually becomes flailing garbage. JKogas is absolutely right - it spells takedown with a capital T, or even simpler, get out of the line of punches and cream the guy. I've seen some really pathetic, stiff, robotic chain punching out there and it is definitely not what we would call proper 'Fan Sao' or continuation of strike. Strike being the key word.
Maybe I've just been lucky. I looked at a lot of WC schools before I started where I'm at, and they all looked like BS. It's the difference I found that convinced me to train WC as my base. I said it before, but studying it has made picking up techniques from other systems at least ten times easier.

As far as Bruce Lee is concerned, well... he's dead. And I wish to god that instructors and students alike in WC and JKD would stop trying to ride his glorious coat tails. And IMO the reason why Bruce felt he needed to 'modify' WC is because he didn't learn the whole system, and wasn't allowed to come back and finish because the Chinese guys were p1$$ed at him for 'selling out' their culture.
As far as I've personally been able to understand, BL's priorities were 1. His acting career. 2. His physical fitness. 3. Martial Arts. 4. MAYBE his family.
I love his movies and yeah, he was a big influence on me but man, he was no saint and I think he gets too much credit strictly as a martial artist.
But that's just one guy's opinion.

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#387174 - 03/31/08 08:49 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
GansuKid Offline
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SkikataGaNai Wrote: "WC has given me a different perspective - that it is really, REALLY difficult to stick with and master one system of fighting. In the end, ANY system becomes 'JKD' because you learn how to use that system unorthodoxically."

I totally agree. IMO that's when you have mastered a system. However, for the recored let me say there are different levels of mastership.

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#387175 - 04/01/08 09:17 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
Neko456 Offline
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Shikata.. wrote - As far as Bruce Lee is concerned, well... he's dead. And I wish to god that instructors and students alike in WC and JKD would stop trying to ride his glorious coat tails. And IMO the reason why Bruce felt he needed to 'modify' WC is because he didn't learn the whole system, and wasn't allowed to come back and finish because the Chinese guys were p1$$ed at him for 'selling out' their culture.
As far as I've personally been able to understand, BL's priorities were 1. His acting career. 2. His physical fitness. 3. Martial Arts. 4. MAYBE his family.
I love his movies and yeah, he was a big influence on me but man, he was no saint and I think he gets too much credit strictly as a martial artist.
But that's just one guy's opinion.
=========================================

That is true Sifu Lee didn't complete the study of WC but he was high enough to evaluate its weakness and progress past them and fill in the gaps. And devise open minded thinking that was outside the box back then. Back then one system was all the people in power wanted you study, think that one was a catch all. Unlike you I think Sifu Lee's input had wanton value in that it help unlock man's most valuable weapon the mind.

As for Lee's talents and priorities I slightly disagree with your view in that I believe he value his martial art first, feeding his family 2nd, his acting career was his job and it was as important as ours because it help support the main two priorites. But even in acting he brought a message other then magical fly over the roof top chop stick kung-fu. Theres was some actual high level of skill in what he did on flim. For incidents how many WC man can kick like that or fought in full range back in the 70s? Like you I find it sad that Bruce Lee seems to be WC's lacky when they want recognition they bring his name up, when they evaluate his thoughts they say he was no good or was only a Intermediate student.

====================
Gansukid - The weight class I thought was a bit one sided. IMO It seemed to me (on viewing it on Youtube) that the size and weight difference favored the Kyoushin.

===============================
I didn't see it that way that was a big kid for a Chinese, now I will agree he was fighting a fitter Man. I also would say that they probably got set up, I mean the luck of the draw and you're fighting one Kyoushin-kai's better fighters. I will say this from what I saw almost any KK guy there would have done the same thing to him, he was not fit and had weak technique. The WCers got off first with a rapid fire punches but to no avail. You are probably right about the date.


Edited by Neko456 (04/01/08 09:27 AM)
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#387176 - 04/13/08 04:01 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Neko456]
Seiken Offline
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Registered: 03/29/08
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Wonderful thread... the following article might be of interest to some.

http://home.vtmuseum.org/articles/crescione/wcvsboxing.php

Personally I see more similarities between every martial art than most would like to admit, especially boxing, so its almost pointless for me. The differences I note between Boxing and WC is boxing has been refined in the ring/gym by some good athletic human specimens... WC, well... I have only seen one or two famous WC guys that were in shape, and still not Boxing shape.

Also, I think most people who talk about Boxing have no clue how advanced and efficient the system is. Same goes for WC, Karate, MMA, BJJ... so much going on that unless the best of the best face each other, its speculation. But its not the best that make the system efficient, its the beginners.. or its useless right? But at least in boxing we can see extremely talented, strong, young individuals using easy, efficient techniques with great success.

The argument always seems to end up WC is not used correctly by most so its not fair to compare? But then when WC is described correctly, in action it looks like what?... Boxing!

On the clinch, I personally feel the Boxing clinch is superior to most, but I learned that the boxing clinch wasnt a set position but a method of control. Basically making it a formless clinch, developing through experience. IMO, the boxing clinch covers the traps and chi sao that WC would, but more efficient.. less movement, just as much sensitivity, and once again, refined through actual fighting.

Footwork, I still have yet to see any WC use footwork other than running in, or step slide. Emin Boztepe, William Cheung, Leung Ting... they know the whole system, touted as the best... they still dont do it, at least on film. Therefor, cannot be considered as part of the system, regardless of what you WANT to do with it, if its not taught, its not there!

Nothing can stay hidden in the information age, especially the effectiveness or lack thereof in a martial arts system.
BTW.. im not biased, like JKogas I find more and more things work the better my delivery system for that range is. I love all martial arts

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#387177 - 04/13/08 11:36 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Seiken]
Seiken Offline
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Emin Boztepe explaining and demonstrating punching power in Wing Chun. He even compares boxing and karate style punching/power delivery.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipfAK224798&feature=related


Edited by Seiken (04/13/08 11:39 PM)

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#387178 - 04/14/08 12:48 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Seiken]
Neko456 Offline
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Interest demo but I notice that he didn't strike/tap the young man with a Boxing or Karate strike he states that Boxing uses 40-60% and Trad Karate 40-50% of the body in striking. But the step through shoulder butt he spoke of we all know does deleiver nearly 100% of body becauses its stepping through his body. A punched doesn't work that way. Of course we know that most systems of Martial art uses a shoulder butt so its not exclusive to WC.

But people know that if you just use WC's three points and shoulder snap vs. the full torque punches of Karate or Boxing which will hit harder and not just move the guy backwards but fold him.

What we noticed in similar test with each taking and giving body shots Boxers hit harder, Karateka next, then Wing Chun all three using foot work. WC have the quickest,shortest deleivery systems then Boxing and next Karate. Unless you are talking head, shoulder or hip butts then Karate or WC are the shortest.

Each has its advantages. This may sound like scakraledge for traditionalist but when U merge the methods I found that striking is enhanced at any range U can strike in.


Edited by Neko456 (04/14/08 12:53 AM)
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#387179 - 04/19/08 11:07 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Neko456]
GansuKid Offline
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Well comparing WC to boxing is the same as comparing apples to oranges.

Seiken wrote:

“The argument always seems to end up WC is not used correctly by most so its not fair to compare? But then when WC is described correctly, in action it looks like what?... Boxing!”

& I still have yet to see any WC use footwork other than running in, or step slide.”

I disagree… Having boxed at the Kronx gym in Detroit and faced a few golden gloves in my day as well as played with some serious WC’’ers (for the recorded I don’t do WC but my friend does )


Apples to oranges. The reason why you haven’t seen anyone (who’s considered an expert) use boxing footwork is because WC isn’t boxing. Emin Boztepe doesn’t move like a boxer, he moves like someone who’s an expert in WC. (as expressed in the video link given recently) Also I think its safe to say that he could hang with most professional boxers in his weight division if pressed.

Is he good enough to hang in the top ten percent of the pro class in his weight division? (Who in MMA is?…. none that I know…

Also, who in boxing “ In his weight division of course” is good enough to hang with Boztepe using San Shou rules? Again, none that I know….

Boxing is great, but boxing is boxing. One of the fundamental flaws in martial arts (especially in the western viewpoint) is that “if it doesn’t look like boxing then its not efficient or effective. That’s a nebbish an un knowing viewpoint…..



The last part of this post is written because I think this thread has been propagated because of MMA’s “new found appreciation of Boxing”

To the un initiated, due to MMA’s “new found appreciation of boxing” …. At least on the internet…. Young acolytes think boxing is all that and a bag of chips. Yet the great strikers of MMA hardly use any boxing in the striking. They don’t use boxing foot work either…. So we should throw that notion out too.

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#387180 - 04/19/08 04:15 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: GansuKid]
Seiken Offline
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I really dont think its safe to say Emin would last a round with a good pro boxer in his weight division. Unless hes trained enough in boxing.

The subtle nuances of a good boxer are just as in depth as any martial art. Except these guys actually fight. Emin just says he fights, no one has seen anything but a middle aged William Cheung fall to the ground with Emin trying to punch him. Boxing handles all the principles other martial arts preach but more efficiently IMO. Why more efficient? Because they actually fight. Most people who disagree with boxing efficiency KNOW they would get whooped by a boxer. On that note, it doesnt count if your a TKD or Wing Chun guy pretending to be a boxer and losing against a buddy of yours who does something else... this junk is popping up everywhere.

We dont think because it doesnt look like boxing its ineffective, we just know when good boxers fight the d34d1y the boxer wins. Everything is effective at some point for some reason, especially when used as intended.


Any effective principles Wing Chun has Western Boxing covers it but with more efficiency. Why? Because they actually fight. Its quite simple really.

On top of that, the much overlooked training methods of boxing develop skill quicker and with a higher degree of applicability.

Take the speed bag for instance. Trains centerline, chain punching, backfist and hammerfist, elbow strikes when your advanced enough, maybe even headbutts if your that good.

Basic anecdotes every trainer shouts is no different than WC theory on paper... throw your punches down the middle, sit down on your punches, punches in bunches, etc.. Except ineffective theories have been weeded out through thousands upon thousands of REAL fights for over a century.

I have nothing against WC, but... it seems to neglect the one thing thats is forever important. The human body. Much happens that you have no control over when all breaks loose.

http://www.drlam.com/A3R_brief_in_doc_format/adrenal_fatigue.cfm#2
http://www.rmcat.com/page17.html

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#387181 - 04/19/08 07:52 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Seiken]
Neko456 Offline
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I agree with Seiken Emin Boztepe under boxing rules against a good boxer wouldn't stand much of a chance but Boxing under WC rules Emin would dominate a golden glove Boxer bc once inside the clinch sticky leg, head butts, elbows, knees, throws, standing chokes and take downs. A Boxer wouldn't know what to do with that. Emin is very skilled but it pends whose the Shark in or out of water.

I don't base his skills level on his disgraceful attack on Master W. Cheng he had his reason and his reputaion survived that tells you how well thought of old man Cheng is.

I also disagree though MMA fighters stance is a little different they usually give creidt to their hands to western boxing no matter what orginal style they 1st trained. Now few are great or even good boxers but just the idea they can box seems to be enough.

WC is more full spectrum then Boxing and probably better all around training in that its more self defense orientated. But in boxing range WCers better get to the clinch unless they can take the boxers legs out. This is not a shot at WC, it is what I feel and teach my guys to do against a boxer and I usually show them why, I've studied my art for 30 years.

A man has to know his limitations facing the truth helps you over come it.

At kicking range, trapping range/grabbing punching??, clinching knee/elbow range and GF range boxing is weak but at punchng range they are the sharks. Just mo.


Edited by Neko456 (04/19/08 08:02 PM)

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#387182 - 04/20/08 10:59 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: Neko456]
GansuKid Offline
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Seiken Wrote:

“I really don’t think its safe to say Emin would last a round with a good pro boxer in his weight division.

The subtle nuances of a good boxer are just as in depth as any martial art. Except these guys actually fight. Emin just says he fights, no one has seen anything but a middle aged William Cheung fall to the ground with Emin trying to punch him.”


Sorry bro……I'll have to disagree….Because I really do think its safe to say that Emin could hang with your average pro boxer. A “good” pro boxer is in the top ten percent. Just because you’re a pro boxer doesn’t mean you’re of quality. During my days at the Kronx I'd seen a couple of boxers turn pro and they sucked!

Hopefully you’re not basing your opinions on some film footage seen on the Internet?

Hopefully you’re basing your assertions on personal experience.

Just wondering? Have you sparred with Emin or others that are recognized close to his skill. Have you boxed in any quality gyms; Maybe boxed in amateur golden gloves? If so, I’ll take you’re your words with more clarity and meaning.

I personally have boxed a few golden gloves and I have personally sparred against some skilled WC’ers from IP linage. As I see it (yep…it’s my opinion only) Apples and oranges (sport vs martial art) and dependent based on the person individual skill etc.. (Its cool if we disagree such is the spice of life.......

I'm just wondering "are you on this boxing kick because of MMA’s “new found appreciation of Boxing?"


Edited by GansuKid (04/20/08 11:01 AM)

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#387183 - 04/20/08 06:28 PM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: GansuKid]
Seiken Offline
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Fair enough, I respect your opinion.

Boxing kick? No, Ive had a heavy bag hanging in my dining room and a speed bag in my shed for years before I even heard the term MMA or UFC. My father, my uncle, my grandfather were all boxers. My grandfather sparred with ray robinson(This is where he got his name Sugar from the newspaper) when he was fighting(amateur union as featherweight) a Canadian boxer here a LOOONG time ago. Im not claiming to be all knowledgeable though, so I wouldnt get your panties in a twist over it.

Never sparred with Emin, but I have sparred with plenty of people from plenty of backgrounds,WC and boxing included. Ive been training 19 years in various arts. My main art has been Karate, but I guess in the end you would call what I do a personal system, not unlike JKD. Im just your average guy, who trains and loves all types martial arts.

Its pretty annoying this MMA thing, not because its not enjoyable or worth it, but people for some reason think the fountain of youth has been found. Because I wrestled in school I must of done it because of the UFC eh? And boxing was never as big as it was until the MMA craze right? lol

Thing is, Emin claims to have hundreds of undefeated fights, including knife fights :/ ... and the fact that his only (poorly executed) fight ever documented was with someone twice his age, and not a mark was on either fighter after the altercation, everyone who has publicly talked about the incident has said the same thing, except for Emin himself. Nothing against Emin, I dont know him personally, but what should I go by? A real fight he was in? Or his staged demonstrations?

It really dont matter though, theres more to boxing than throwing punches. I would even put a good boxer into chi sao with money on the boxer. Not because I dont think WC is ineffective or not good, I just think the art of boxing is being sadly overlooked and the nuances of the art are not being recognized by the general public and even martial artists alike. My general case is, Boxing and Wing Chun are more similar than anyone thinks, but boxing took it to the next level years ago on a extremely large and public base. They fought, refined techniques, refined theories, etc..

Listen, im not claiming to be some WC or boxing master. But the people who are recognized in those fields and by their peers as being the best have information and articles all over the media now. So, when a WC instructor tells you exactly what the system is, you have to take their word for it. Cross referenced with boxing your going to find alot of the principles that are claimed to make WC superior, boxing has it, except more refined under real conditions.


Boxers and Wing Chunnners all claim to be effective and capable of fighting to a win. Boxers get in there and get it done, Wing Chunners always seem to get in there and lose. And the fact that all WC people will tout how those people werent doing Wing Chun makes me believe even more that WC cannot be used as claimed when the pooper drops log. Theory has to be taken back to the drawing board when the testing is done. Ive never seen WC pass a test yet. I wish it would, because in theory it is unbeatable.

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#387184 - 04/21/08 10:55 AM Re: Boxing is no good Wing Chun is better??? [Re: GansuKid]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
This is what I have a problem with, people that put others on on a pedastal.

No I haven't sparred with Emin. Yes I have sparred with boxers plenty of Golden gloves and my brother was a Pro Boxer sparred with him often. I've sparred some pretty good WCer's also. But none at Emin or Cheng level.

You mentioned boxers at the Kronks turning pro not being good, you don't get a chance to turn Pro without someone putting some money up. And they don't put money in your career unless you WIN, you don't have to be a great boxer technique wise to win, just a tough fighter and you keep winning more then you lose. Talk about something you know not what you assume. I'm not talking just the Kronks gyms this is boxing business 101 period.


I gave Emin his prop under self defense or WC rules Emin would dominate a Boxer imo, if he could take his legs out or got into a clnich and worked his elbows, knees and sticky legs, throws./takedowns.

This is only my opinion but its based on being the pits with these two disciplines.

I just mentioned the Cheng vs. Emin event and my feeling about it because it happened and was mentioned before in this thread. It definitely wasn't something to brag about.

WC is good but under boxing rules I still believe Emin or most pure WCer would get his lunch brought to him. Fighting with a 1/3 of his arsenal and the boxer full out go figure.
Thats all I'm saying swicht the rules and he got a good chance of wining if he could work his advantage.

Bottom line you have your opinion I have mines, based on my experince.


Edited by Neko456 (04/21/08 10:59 AM)
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