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#387033 - 03/18/08 08:23 AM kicking with?
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
as a shotoan guy i've always been tought to kick with the ball of the foot. i've had one shotokan teacer show me to use the shin for attacking the legs, but he warned me "don't let your instrctor know i show'd you this, lol" and i've had TKD and jujtsu guys show me to use the instep and the shin as well.

but this ball of the foot thing really gets to me sometimes! i was working on the heavybag this weekend and i notice that when i kick with a full power round kick using the ball of my foot, my foot hurts. i can feel it in the bones of my foot, and sometimes (even in shoes) my toes bend back very painfully. i stretch them to help with this, but my toes only go back so far.

i prefer to kick with the low shin because it feels much more solid. i can swing mch harder with the shin and the bag feels it all. if i ever did this in a shotokan tournament though, i would not get the point (another discussion)

my best conclusion is that kicking with the foot is for light precise shots and the shins are for barn yard swingers. thoughts?
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#387034 - 03/18/08 08:44 AM Re: kicking with? [Re: student_of_life]
underdog Offline
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Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Someone may post a youtube clip of a kickboxing match, I think it was, where after a kick with the shin, the man's foot was visibly broken and the lower leg & foot dangling.

My own experience with the shin weapon kick is that it is very good, but if your angle is off, your knee is in for a horrible surprise and while the bag cooperates most of the time, a real person can move unexpectedly.

I've been taught to use all parts of my leg as weapons. The only one I never use is the toe thrust kick. I have no interest in developing this kick with bare feet. Usually I use the ball of the foot. Yes toes are a problem. I stopped counting my toe fractures and whenever possible, I practice with some kind of shoe on. I was taught that for the side kick and the round house kick, the most effective weapon is the heel. I never threw a really good round house heel personally, but I almost always use the heel for the side kick.
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#387035 - 03/18/08 10:48 AM Re: kicking with? [Re: underdog]
MidnightTrain Offline
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Registered: 02/13/07
Posts: 9
Loc: Arkansas
In my particular style of Shorin-ryu, we kick with the tips of the toes. One of the benefits is that you don't have to kick with all your might, you can actually learn to 'tear' muscle instead of bruising it. Of course this takes more practice and accuracy but I've got nothing but time.
And all the talk of 'asking' for broken toes just amuses me.
I break knees and ribs of my opponents, not my toes.
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#387036 - 03/18/08 10:53 AM Re: kicking with? [Re: MidnightTrain]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
i've kicked with the ball of my foot, and bent back toes that felt like tat broke. i could barely even put my foot back down on the ground.
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#387037 - 03/18/08 12:14 PM Re: kicking with? [Re: student_of_life]
Zombie Zero Offline
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In my experience, each type of kick calls for a different weapon.

Ball of the foot -- Front thrust kick
Heel -- Hook kick, Wheel kick
Blade -- Side kick
Instep/Shin -- Front Snap kick, Round kick, Twist kick
Toe -- Only used when wearing my mudhole-stompin' boots.
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In my walk in the martial way, my hope is that as long as I live, I will always be a beginner.

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#387038 - 03/18/08 06:34 PM Re: kicking with? [Re: student_of_life]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
I think it depends on the intended target and the angle you need to make it more effective.

I don't use the instep though, too many nerves on top of the foot.
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#387039 - 03/19/08 10:52 AM Re: kicking with? [Re: BrianS]
underdog Offline
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Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I agree with Brian. Depends on target which will compel an angle of attack and suggest the weapon. This is very important for us Kyusho practitioners.
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#387040 - 03/19/08 11:07 AM Re: kicking with? [Re: student_of_life]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:


my best conclusion is that kicking with the foot is for light precise shots and the shins are for barn yard swingers. thoughts?




My thoughts are it the part of the body used is dependent on the target.
Bare footed kicking I dont train anymore.
To many old karare guys around with duff feet.

To my mind karate was a self defence in bare feet because of the times.

Shins for striking I use a fair bit.

Toes are used for specific targets by certain styles.
I only use toes if they are in decent foot ware.

Kicking the shins with the toes inside shoes hurts any attacker.

Jude

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#387041 - 03/19/08 11:34 AM Re: kicking with? [Re: student_of_life]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Quote:

my best conclusion is that kicking with the foot is for light precise shots and the shins are for barn yard swingers. thoughts?





Not necessarily in my opinion. There are plenty of targeted shots one can attempt with the shin---and then you have to ask, where on the shin? And as Brian and a few others have noted, depends on the target. I'll add these qualifications as well. Depends also on the distance and capability of the individual using the kick selected.

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#387042 - 03/19/08 12:10 PM Re: kicking with? [Re: butterfly]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
the higher up on the knee you make contact with, the more the kick becomes a push as well.
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#387043 - 03/19/08 12:21 PM Re: kicking with? [Re: student_of_life]
bo-ken Offline
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Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 1228
Loc: beaver falls, PA, beaver
I use the ball of my foot on front kicks and sometimes rounds. When using it for a round kick with the ball I only do it to the inside of the thigh or the stomach.

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#387044 - 03/19/08 12:40 PM Re: kicking with? [Re: student_of_life]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Quote:

the higher up on the knee you make contact with, the more the kick becomes a push as well.





Again, depends on how you are defining kicks and what applications you put them to. In the style I study, we would generally use the shin as a primary impacting surface followed by the ball of the foot...and last the instep with some different considerations of use.

But per your comment, for instance if you could parry a left front kick from your opponent and deposit it angled in front of you, a nice counter would be a right shin kick but dumping your body weight into the kick while initally feeding it with a push of your hip. Kind of looks like an MT shin block, only not going outward but pushed forward and down. Lots of short impacting power using the flat surface on the inside of your shin, not the ridge, of the shin bone and just two-three inches down from the knee as the contacting point. Aim for the outstretched thigh of the kick you just parried, aim for a pressure point, if you want to call it that, mid way between knee and hip joint and you can give a nice charlie and a bad limp to your opponent if done correctly.

It's a shin kick, but depends on training and your capabilities with it.

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#387045 - 03/19/08 02:24 PM Re: kicking with? [Re: MidnightTrain]
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
Other benefits to the toe kick is that you can go after smaller targers, and it more closely mimics kicking with shoes on.
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#387046 - 03/19/08 03:46 PM Re: kicking with? [Re: student_of_life]
Hakusan22 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/08/08
Posts: 6
Loc: Oceanside, CA
Ah the round house kick...hehe. Ultimatly the most usless kick ever invented. Mostly modified over time by people who were afraid of close quarters combat and who wanted to stay longer ranges away from the opponent. Truth is, the Roundhouse kick, mostly taught wrong anyway, is not supposed to be a "round-house" kick at all.

Study some MMA fighters who say they are Muay Thai practitioners. Every kick done is a "round-house", not a Muay Thai move. The Muay Thai move, and correct way to do this technique, is actually used more like a pushing mechanics, rather than the golf club/bat mechanics you see used more popularly today. It is this golf club/bat mechanics you see used that causes broken shin bones and fractured anckles. The correct technique is used with the shin as expected, but chops rather than swings, and pushes rather than strikes. but can be used as both, dependant uppon the movent of your opponent, but remains the same technique regarldless.

It is quite simple. Point your knee at the opponents opposite hip. Use rotation, momentum, and speed to smash your shin into your opponnets leg. The key with this technique, is not in the kick, but the hip thrust you use to push into the opponents thigh. Done correctly, your opponent with either hit the ground from nerve pain, or his femur bone with crack/break. Even if your opponent raises his knee to block, because your knee is pointed at his opposite hip, you will still slide along his shin, and take out his other leg. Efficiency over variety.

As for the balls of your feet. To use it for anything other than pushing will result in injury. Try this, after you throw your knees or this kick, push on your opponents shoulders and deliver a push kick with the balls of your foot to the diaphram. Not only is the power increase from backward momentum, but the wind will be completely knocked out of him. I dont ever use the balls of my feet for anything but pushing.

Train hard eveyone.

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#387047 - 03/19/08 04:07 PM Re: kicking with? [Re: Hakusan22]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Hakusan,

Do you mind filling out your bio? I was asked to do the same awhile back. Just curious about your background when you condemn so quickly the round kick as
Quote:

most usless kick ever invented.


I also don't quite consider it reliable that a good shin kick, even when applied properly, can automatically reduce a femur bone to rubble as easily as you implied in your post (cracked or broken).

Where's the basis to come to these conclusions? Honestly curious there, in a friendly way. And, I do think ball of the foot as the impacting surface has its place and can be used quite well in application with a round kick.

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#387048 - 03/19/08 04:33 PM Re: kicking with? [Re: butterfly]
Hakusan22 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/08/08
Posts: 6
Loc: Oceanside, CA
Lol the man who taught it to me is a world champion in Muay Thai fighting and has borken over 40 femur bones. Tell that to him lol. I understand where you are comming from. But i am more concerned on being more efficent while i fight, than to have more moves that i know what to do with. Yes the ball of the the foot, when applied correctly, can be usefull, like in the push kick i explained. But ultimatly should not be used as a battering ram when kicking. or you will get injured.

Some of these people viewing are non expirenced people who have not trained for years and years as some of us have. They will think to kick with the ball of their foot, and then brake their toes or entire foot do to unadiquate training and technique. No, just starting out, you probably wont be able to shatter someones femur bone, But the nerve strike still remains reliable. And much more effective than the femoral nerve endings you are trying to strike on the outer leg. Because the nerve actuall runs from your hip to the upper thigh, and "bleeds" out to the surrounding leg. I have trained this way a long time, and i will tell you that no amount of body hardening will prepare you for this kind of blow.

Ultimalty, what is the point in knowing techniques that have a high chance of injury that is dependent uppon, and mostly just slight, movents of the opponent? Sure you have lots of technique and speed, but it dont help much if your technique is not efficent and your fighting or defense ability is decreased by your past injuries, or halted all together because of an injury you take while in a fight.
Conditioning your body helps, but there is no way this guy, can hit the heavy bag with the ball of his foot during a round house technique ,without it hurting. His legs are not golf clubs and his angles and toes are not solid points. they are joints. Highly fragile, but flexible joints. Why not use them to attack in the same matter in which they were built, to reduce injury and movent time?

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#387049 - 03/19/08 04:34 PM Re: kicking with? [Re: Hakusan22]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:


Lol the man who taught it to me is a world champion in Muay Thai fighting and has borken over 40 femur bones.








And what is his name?

Quote:

Ah the round house kick...hehe. Ultimatly the most usless kick ever invented. Mostly modified over time by people who were afraid of close quarters combat and who wanted to stay longer ranges away from the opponent. Truth is, the Roundhouse kick, mostly taught wrong anyway, is not supposed to be a "round-house" kick at all.






Can you in a specific sense define exactly what you imagine a roundhouse kick is?

Quote:


Study some MMA fighters who say they are Muay Thai practitioners. Every kick done is a "round-house", not a Muay Thai move. The Muay Thai move, and correct way to do this technique, is actually used more like a pushing mechanics, rather than the golf club/bat mechanics you see used more popularly today. It is this golf club/bat mechanics you see used that causes broken shin bones and fractured anckles. The correct technique is used with the shin as expected, but chops rather than swings, and pushes rather than strikes. but can be used as both, dependant uppon the movent of your opponent, but remains the same technique regarldless.





I think Butterfly has experience on how a thai kick is correctly thrown in say a thai fight.
What do you say to this Butterfly?
Quote:


It is quite simple. Point your knee at the opponents opposite hip. Use rotation, momentum, and speed to smash your shin into your opponnets leg. The key with this technique, is not in the kick, but the hip thrust you use to push into the opponents thigh. Done correctly, your opponent with either hit the ground from nerve pain, or his femur bone with crack/break. Even if your opponent raises his knee to block, because your knee is pointed at his opposite hip, you will still slide along his shin, and take out his other leg. Efficiency over variety.






Big description.
I have been kicked by thai style fighters. It hurts/ numbs but not quite as dramatic as you say. Maybe they didint have it yet. Interesting I observe thai fighter / other fighters who take quite a few kicks in the thigh before they
go down in competition?

Quote:


As for the balls of your feet. To use it for anything other than pushing will result in injury. Try this, after you throw your knees or this kick, push on your opponents shoulders and deliver a push kick with the balls of your foot to the diaphram. Not only is the power increase from backward momentum, but the wind will be completely knocked out of him. I dont ever use the balls of my feet for anything but pushing.






Total utter boring rubbish
I have trained with karate ka who used the balls of their feet. (Barefooted) Normaly target area is a soft target eg stomach. Most top guys trained their balls of the feet on the makiwari.

I think this is someone under a different name who might have been asked to leave maybe?



Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/19/08 04:39 PM)

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#387050 - 03/19/08 04:57 PM Re: kicking with? [Re: Hakusan22]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Hakusan22 -

Quote:

Done correctly, your opponent with either hit the ground from nerve pain, or his femur bone with crack/break. Even if your opponent raises his knee to block, because your knee is pointed at his opposite hip, you will still slide along his shin, and take out his other leg.




*restrains self*

I have seen many vids of Thai MT fighters doing those kicks who did not break each other's femurs or even knock each other over. Having said that, I do think that the RH kick can be effective.

And having trained with Butterfly in person, I can also say that it is possible to become conditioned to those kicks to the thigh. I saw the instructor there take 20 full power RH kicks to his thigh without so much as blinking. 3 relatively light kicks to my thigh left me hobbling for the rest of the week.
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#387051 - 03/19/08 06:12 PM Re: kicking with? [Re: MattJ]
Hakusan22 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/08/08
Posts: 6
Loc: Oceanside, CA
Wow, comotion lol. Ok, all had imput, i love to learn what others think. But none of you had a remark for the last part of the post. this post is not for you guys, its for the man who posted the question.

As for the RH kick itself, done correctly or not, it will still hurt. Naturally, i am not arguing that. I am simply giving an opinion to a problem someone was having. I did not post it so you can tear it up with your oppions. I posted it as a possible solution. Everyone is trained different. And everyone has an opinion. But i will tell you, that 5 years in the marine corps, and not one person, no matter how big he was could take a full powered kicked to the top of the thigh. And yes, we do body hardening every day of training.

I dont belive in starting arguments over something like this. It is my opinion, that is all. And i aplaud you if you can take one of my kicks to the top of the thigh. but because of the size of the nerve and how the kicks mechanics and technique is worked, it would take you training in that one art, for most of your life to get your nerve that tolerant. Or your brain actually for that matter.

As to watching people take kicks, watch the function of the kick over what you see is normal and what you see should work better or does. I see MMA fighters take RH kicks all the time. But i have faught with a "MMA" practitioner, and all i can say is, he went down on the first kick. After he has been training with MMA teachers and such. It is not about the MMA, or how well you can take the kick. It is the mechanics and technique of the kick the guys needs to learn. Because he is hurting his foot when he kicks with the balls of his feet. It is another path, another route, an option if you will. He wanted to know how to kick, i told him how i was taught and what it could do given the practice of the technique. So let him deside. but ultimatley, i would say, you would have to feel it personally by the person explaining it to understand what is being talked about.

Ideas and thoughts will always collide with different styles. I try to be open to all styles to learn about and pull the best from them. Not only for my benefit, but also to defeat the style i recognize. In any case, experience has shown me that no matter who i have faught, no one has taken this kick and still stood. And i have faught all types of fighters, including Thai MT. As i said before, it is just my experience. Telling me experience from reading or watching something doesnt tell me anything. so please dont argue a point with that.

Thanks

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#387052 - 03/19/08 06:49 PM Re: kicking with? [Re: Hakusan22]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Not sure who your were referring to, sport. But I did participate in everything I referred to.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#387053 - 03/19/08 07:15 PM Re: kicking with? [Re: Hakusan22]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
im having trouble trying to picture the kind of kick your talking about, but thanks for the reply.
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#387054 - 03/19/08 08:58 PM Re: kicking with? [Re: Hakusan22]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Ideas and thoughts will always collide with different styles. I try to be open to all styles to learn about and pull the best from them. Not only for my benefit, but also to defeat the style i recognize. In any case, experience has shown me that no matter who i have faught, no one has taken this kick and still stood. And i have faught all types of fighters, including Thai MT. As i said before, it is just my experience. Telling me experience from reading or watching something doesnt tell me anything. so please dont argue a point with that.

Thanks







http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?doci...h&plindex=0

Thought I would post this , just for your thoughts.

Its is in the main in the days when people didnt use
gloves, or werent realy thigh kick inclined, because thai boxing wasnt to well known.

Jude

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#387055 - 03/19/08 09:22 PM Re: kicking with? [Re: student_of_life]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello student of life:

I would adamently disagree the ball of the foot is for "light" precision. Yet admit to liking your shin analogy very, very much!

Jeff

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#387056 - 03/20/08 05:08 AM Re: kicking with? [Re: Ronin1966]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Personally I think the ball of the foot is meant for snapping techniques; not necessarily light kicks, but not anything as weight intensive as a thai swinging roundhouse.
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#387057 - 03/20/08 09:21 AM Re: kicking with? [Re: Hakusan22]
Zombie Zero Offline
Compliance & Liability
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Registered: 06/17/05
Posts: 1993
Loc: Lorton, VA
Quote:

As for the RH kick itself, done correctly or not, it will still hurt. Naturally, i am not arguing that. I am simply giving an opinion to a problem someone was having. I did not post it so you can tear it up with your oppions.




Hakusan, welcome aboard.

This is an open forum. Posting your opinion on a subject comes with a reasonable expectation that others will respond with theirs.
_________________________
In my walk in the martial way, my hope is that as long as I live, I will always be a beginner.

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#387058 - 03/21/08 04:59 PM Re: kicking with? [Re: student_of_life]
TroTro Offline
Member

Registered: 05/04/07
Posts: 59
Just my humble opinion:

If you kick with an amount of force more than your foot (ball, shin, blade, etc) can handle, or close to the limit, it is logical that your foot may get injury.

I think there are situation which apply *enough* force with the kick is enough to get the job done.

An analogy: Let say a punch to the chin, and the intention is to knock out the opponent. The puncher use X amount of force with his punch, and opponent got KO'ed. If the puncher use twice amount for the same punch, the opponent will still got KO'ed (Of course the damage should be more, but is it needed?)


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#387059 - 03/21/08 08:17 PM Re: kicking with? [Re: student_of_life]
ttruscott Offline
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Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 31
Loc: BC Canada
Hey, older and wiser says, "What ever works for you!"

Do them all, try them all, depend on none.
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"Fear, not compassion, restrains the wicked."

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#387060 - 04/01/08 01:02 PM Re: kicking with? [Re: ttruscott]
CA_Isshinryu Offline
Member

Registered: 08/12/05
Posts: 98
Loc: California
Test:

Part A:
1. Find a friend that doesn't mind contact.
2. Kick them in the stomach with a VERY LIGHT TOP of the foot round house.
3. Increase the force of the kick slightly and rekick.
4. Continue 3 until your parter says stop.
5. Note the power required to make them stop.

Part B:
1. Find a friend that doesn't mind contact.
2. Kick them in the stomach with a VERY LIGHT BALL of the foot round house.
3. Increase the force of the kick slightly and rekick.
4. Continue 3 until your parter says stop.
5. Note the power required to make them stop.

I Guarantee the results will be that the Ball of the foot kick took about half the power to be just as effective.

That being said, do not kick a heavy bag with a ball of the foot round house kick with FULL POWER. Your just gonna hurt your toes and ankle.

This is a lightning fast kick that penetrates and does not need power to be effective. Due to the fact that you do not need a great deal of power you can use this kick at short range while inside fighting.

This kick is all about speed since getting your toes blocked when doing this kick HURTS. I usually use it when I get inside somebodys guard and their hands go up to protect ribs and head. I can snap this kick to the stomach and no matter how much muscle they have this will drop them.

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#387061 - 04/01/08 09:57 PM Re: kicking with? [Re: student_of_life]
karate_popo Offline
Member

Registered: 09/27/07
Posts: 154
Loc: NYC
Quote:

as a shotoan guy i've always been tought to kick with the ball of the foot. i've had one shotokan teacer show me to use the shin for attacking the legs, but he warned me "don't let your instrctor know i show'd you this, lol" and i've had TKD and jujtsu guys show me to use the instep and the shin as well.

i actually had to get a shot of cortizone in my foot from kicking too much with the ball of my foot, but then through time it didn't hurt anymore.. we do this thing in class, where we balance on the ball of the foot for long periods of time, i think it strengthens that part of our foot. as far as using that to do a light kick.. i guess... but if i can use the ball of the foot, with a front thrust kick, to break wood, i wouldn't call that i light kick...

but this ball of the foot thing really gets to me sometimes! i was working on the heavybag this weekend and i notice that when i kick with a full power round kick using the ball of my foot, my foot hurts. i can feel it in the bones of my foot, and sometimes (even in shoes) my toes bend back very painfully. i stretch them to help with this, but my toes only go back so far.

i prefer to kick with the low shin because it feels much more solid. i can swing mch harder with the shin and the bag feels it all. if i ever did this in a shotokan tournament though, i would not get the point (another discussion)

my best conclusion is that kicking with the foot is for light precise shots and the shins are for barn yard swingers. thoughts?


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