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#387043 - 03/19/08 12:21 PM Re: kicking with? [Re: student_of_life]
bo-ken Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 1228
Loc: beaver falls, PA, beaver
I use the ball of my foot on front kicks and sometimes rounds. When using it for a round kick with the ball I only do it to the inside of the thigh or the stomach.

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#387044 - 03/19/08 12:40 PM Re: kicking with? [Re: student_of_life]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Quote:

the higher up on the knee you make contact with, the more the kick becomes a push as well.





Again, depends on how you are defining kicks and what applications you put them to. In the style I study, we would generally use the shin as a primary impacting surface followed by the ball of the foot...and last the instep with some different considerations of use.

But per your comment, for instance if you could parry a left front kick from your opponent and deposit it angled in front of you, a nice counter would be a right shin kick but dumping your body weight into the kick while initally feeding it with a push of your hip. Kind of looks like an MT shin block, only not going outward but pushed forward and down. Lots of short impacting power using the flat surface on the inside of your shin, not the ridge, of the shin bone and just two-three inches down from the knee as the contacting point. Aim for the outstretched thigh of the kick you just parried, aim for a pressure point, if you want to call it that, mid way between knee and hip joint and you can give a nice charlie and a bad limp to your opponent if done correctly.

It's a shin kick, but depends on training and your capabilities with it.

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#387045 - 03/19/08 02:24 PM Re: kicking with? [Re: MidnightTrain]
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
Other benefits to the toe kick is that you can go after smaller targers, and it more closely mimics kicking with shoes on.
_________________________

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#387046 - 03/19/08 03:46 PM Re: kicking with? [Re: student_of_life]
Hakusan22 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/08/08
Posts: 6
Loc: Oceanside, CA
Ah the round house kick...hehe. Ultimatly the most usless kick ever invented. Mostly modified over time by people who were afraid of close quarters combat and who wanted to stay longer ranges away from the opponent. Truth is, the Roundhouse kick, mostly taught wrong anyway, is not supposed to be a "round-house" kick at all.

Study some MMA fighters who say they are Muay Thai practitioners. Every kick done is a "round-house", not a Muay Thai move. The Muay Thai move, and correct way to do this technique, is actually used more like a pushing mechanics, rather than the golf club/bat mechanics you see used more popularly today. It is this golf club/bat mechanics you see used that causes broken shin bones and fractured anckles. The correct technique is used with the shin as expected, but chops rather than swings, and pushes rather than strikes. but can be used as both, dependant uppon the movent of your opponent, but remains the same technique regarldless.

It is quite simple. Point your knee at the opponents opposite hip. Use rotation, momentum, and speed to smash your shin into your opponnets leg. The key with this technique, is not in the kick, but the hip thrust you use to push into the opponents thigh. Done correctly, your opponent with either hit the ground from nerve pain, or his femur bone with crack/break. Even if your opponent raises his knee to block, because your knee is pointed at his opposite hip, you will still slide along his shin, and take out his other leg. Efficiency over variety.

As for the balls of your feet. To use it for anything other than pushing will result in injury. Try this, after you throw your knees or this kick, push on your opponents shoulders and deliver a push kick with the balls of your foot to the diaphram. Not only is the power increase from backward momentum, but the wind will be completely knocked out of him. I dont ever use the balls of my feet for anything but pushing.

Train hard eveyone.

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#387047 - 03/19/08 04:07 PM Re: kicking with? [Re: Hakusan22]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Hakusan,

Do you mind filling out your bio? I was asked to do the same awhile back. Just curious about your background when you condemn so quickly the round kick as
Quote:

most usless kick ever invented.


I also don't quite consider it reliable that a good shin kick, even when applied properly, can automatically reduce a femur bone to rubble as easily as you implied in your post (cracked or broken).

Where's the basis to come to these conclusions? Honestly curious there, in a friendly way. And, I do think ball of the foot as the impacting surface has its place and can be used quite well in application with a round kick.

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#387048 - 03/19/08 04:33 PM Re: kicking with? [Re: butterfly]
Hakusan22 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/08/08
Posts: 6
Loc: Oceanside, CA
Lol the man who taught it to me is a world champion in Muay Thai fighting and has borken over 40 femur bones. Tell that to him lol. I understand where you are comming from. But i am more concerned on being more efficent while i fight, than to have more moves that i know what to do with. Yes the ball of the the foot, when applied correctly, can be usefull, like in the push kick i explained. But ultimatly should not be used as a battering ram when kicking. or you will get injured.

Some of these people viewing are non expirenced people who have not trained for years and years as some of us have. They will think to kick with the ball of their foot, and then brake their toes or entire foot do to unadiquate training and technique. No, just starting out, you probably wont be able to shatter someones femur bone, But the nerve strike still remains reliable. And much more effective than the femoral nerve endings you are trying to strike on the outer leg. Because the nerve actuall runs from your hip to the upper thigh, and "bleeds" out to the surrounding leg. I have trained this way a long time, and i will tell you that no amount of body hardening will prepare you for this kind of blow.

Ultimalty, what is the point in knowing techniques that have a high chance of injury that is dependent uppon, and mostly just slight, movents of the opponent? Sure you have lots of technique and speed, but it dont help much if your technique is not efficent and your fighting or defense ability is decreased by your past injuries, or halted all together because of an injury you take while in a fight.
Conditioning your body helps, but there is no way this guy, can hit the heavy bag with the ball of his foot during a round house technique ,without it hurting. His legs are not golf clubs and his angles and toes are not solid points. they are joints. Highly fragile, but flexible joints. Why not use them to attack in the same matter in which they were built, to reduce injury and movent time?

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#387049 - 03/19/08 04:34 PM Re: kicking with? [Re: Hakusan22]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:


Lol the man who taught it to me is a world champion in Muay Thai fighting and has borken over 40 femur bones.








And what is his name?

Quote:

Ah the round house kick...hehe. Ultimatly the most usless kick ever invented. Mostly modified over time by people who were afraid of close quarters combat and who wanted to stay longer ranges away from the opponent. Truth is, the Roundhouse kick, mostly taught wrong anyway, is not supposed to be a "round-house" kick at all.






Can you in a specific sense define exactly what you imagine a roundhouse kick is?

Quote:


Study some MMA fighters who say they are Muay Thai practitioners. Every kick done is a "round-house", not a Muay Thai move. The Muay Thai move, and correct way to do this technique, is actually used more like a pushing mechanics, rather than the golf club/bat mechanics you see used more popularly today. It is this golf club/bat mechanics you see used that causes broken shin bones and fractured anckles. The correct technique is used with the shin as expected, but chops rather than swings, and pushes rather than strikes. but can be used as both, dependant uppon the movent of your opponent, but remains the same technique regarldless.





I think Butterfly has experience on how a thai kick is correctly thrown in say a thai fight.
What do you say to this Butterfly?
Quote:


It is quite simple. Point your knee at the opponents opposite hip. Use rotation, momentum, and speed to smash your shin into your opponnets leg. The key with this technique, is not in the kick, but the hip thrust you use to push into the opponents thigh. Done correctly, your opponent with either hit the ground from nerve pain, or his femur bone with crack/break. Even if your opponent raises his knee to block, because your knee is pointed at his opposite hip, you will still slide along his shin, and take out his other leg. Efficiency over variety.






Big description.
I have been kicked by thai style fighters. It hurts/ numbs but not quite as dramatic as you say. Maybe they didint have it yet. Interesting I observe thai fighter / other fighters who take quite a few kicks in the thigh before they
go down in competition?

Quote:


As for the balls of your feet. To use it for anything other than pushing will result in injury. Try this, after you throw your knees or this kick, push on your opponents shoulders and deliver a push kick with the balls of your foot to the diaphram. Not only is the power increase from backward momentum, but the wind will be completely knocked out of him. I dont ever use the balls of my feet for anything but pushing.






Total utter boring rubbish
I have trained with karate ka who used the balls of their feet. (Barefooted) Normaly target area is a soft target eg stomach. Most top guys trained their balls of the feet on the makiwari.

I think this is someone under a different name who might have been asked to leave maybe?



Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/19/08 04:39 PM)

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#387050 - 03/19/08 04:57 PM Re: kicking with? [Re: Hakusan22]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Hakusan22 -

Quote:

Done correctly, your opponent with either hit the ground from nerve pain, or his femur bone with crack/break. Even if your opponent raises his knee to block, because your knee is pointed at his opposite hip, you will still slide along his shin, and take out his other leg.




*restrains self*

I have seen many vids of Thai MT fighters doing those kicks who did not break each other's femurs or even knock each other over. Having said that, I do think that the RH kick can be effective.

And having trained with Butterfly in person, I can also say that it is possible to become conditioned to those kicks to the thigh. I saw the instructor there take 20 full power RH kicks to his thigh without so much as blinking. 3 relatively light kicks to my thigh left me hobbling for the rest of the week.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#387051 - 03/19/08 06:12 PM Re: kicking with? [Re: MattJ]
Hakusan22 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/08/08
Posts: 6
Loc: Oceanside, CA
Wow, comotion lol. Ok, all had imput, i love to learn what others think. But none of you had a remark for the last part of the post. this post is not for you guys, its for the man who posted the question.

As for the RH kick itself, done correctly or not, it will still hurt. Naturally, i am not arguing that. I am simply giving an opinion to a problem someone was having. I did not post it so you can tear it up with your oppions. I posted it as a possible solution. Everyone is trained different. And everyone has an opinion. But i will tell you, that 5 years in the marine corps, and not one person, no matter how big he was could take a full powered kicked to the top of the thigh. And yes, we do body hardening every day of training.

I dont belive in starting arguments over something like this. It is my opinion, that is all. And i aplaud you if you can take one of my kicks to the top of the thigh. but because of the size of the nerve and how the kicks mechanics and technique is worked, it would take you training in that one art, for most of your life to get your nerve that tolerant. Or your brain actually for that matter.

As to watching people take kicks, watch the function of the kick over what you see is normal and what you see should work better or does. I see MMA fighters take RH kicks all the time. But i have faught with a "MMA" practitioner, and all i can say is, he went down on the first kick. After he has been training with MMA teachers and such. It is not about the MMA, or how well you can take the kick. It is the mechanics and technique of the kick the guys needs to learn. Because he is hurting his foot when he kicks with the balls of his feet. It is another path, another route, an option if you will. He wanted to know how to kick, i told him how i was taught and what it could do given the practice of the technique. So let him deside. but ultimatley, i would say, you would have to feel it personally by the person explaining it to understand what is being talked about.

Ideas and thoughts will always collide with different styles. I try to be open to all styles to learn about and pull the best from them. Not only for my benefit, but also to defeat the style i recognize. In any case, experience has shown me that no matter who i have faught, no one has taken this kick and still stood. And i have faught all types of fighters, including Thai MT. As i said before, it is just my experience. Telling me experience from reading or watching something doesnt tell me anything. so please dont argue a point with that.

Thanks

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#387052 - 03/19/08 06:49 PM Re: kicking with? [Re: Hakusan22]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Not sure who your were referring to, sport. But I did participate in everything I referred to.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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