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#386597 - 03/13/08 10:39 AM How many train with live baldes?
janxspirit Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 132
So how many of you guys support your stick training with live blade training? I like the way a blade forces me to focus on my stroke technique, and I just like to play with swords anyway

What bout you guys?
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#386598 - 03/13/08 11:01 AM Re: How many train with live baldes? [Re: janxspirit]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Hell no!
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#386599 - 03/13/08 05:57 PM Re: How many train with live baldes? [Re: MattJ]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Is that even legal?

Regardless, it's about the most stupidly dangerous idea I've ever heard.
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#386600 - 03/13/08 10:45 PM Re: How many train with live baldes? [Re: Leo_E_49]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I'd have to say no. I don't like my odds with live blades, particularly if I screw something up.



-John

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#386601 - 03/14/08 03:46 AM Re: How many train with live baldes? [Re: JKogas]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
I am a live bald guy. People train with me regularly.

If you are talking about blades, I went to a less than brilliant school of kenjutsu when i didnt know any better about the subject, and did some Iaido with a live blade shinken. Got my draw wrong and sliced my thumb down to the bone. Only found out later that most schools dont let you even use a blunted real sword for ages, and live blade somtimes for years. I should have been using a bokken, and when I look at the scar in my thiumb, and think about the feeling of the blade 'biting' into the bone, I wish I had been.

If you train with live weaponry, then you will always be 'holding back', and when dealing with real situations, that is how you will respond. Train with low risk weaponry, and you can train with full resistance, so be better equipped to deal with the real thing if unlucky enough to encounter it.

Just my thoughts.
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#386602 - 03/14/08 03:46 PM Re: How many train with live baldes? [Re: Cord]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
We train live taped bladed sometimes to get a feel of why not to try to catch the blade. But live blade moving very slowly if ever, live blades bring blood.

My favorite live blade drill is the big mouth that says he has one in his pocket and it never makes it out. So its a live dead blade, it never gets to move.

Kali/Silat seminar I didn't have a blade and brought the taped real knife out they laught at me, saying No you can't practice with that and gave me a wooden one.

People that know what a knife can do don't want U practicing with a 2 men live blade training.

Now one person free movement drills with a live blade once you know something. Kinda like shadow boxing. Hell you can cut yourself with a very sharp live blade moving fast all by yourself.

Looking embarassed I've done it several times, but don't tell anybody. It don't hurt when it happens, until that night and from then on, healing pains.

I think question should be, Is it SMART to train live blade?


Edited by Neko456 (03/14/08 03:47 PM)
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#386603 - 03/14/08 04:48 PM Re: How many train with live baldes? [Re: JKogas]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Well I really think it depends on your level of comfort and how real you want to be in your training.

For instance, when I first started to train catching bullets in my teeth, we used BB guns. But I soon realized the velocity difference was really screwing with my timing and if they day ever came when I had to catch a bullet on the street, I'd be screwed.

Same goes for arrows or spears, anything but a live bladed tip throws off the trajectory and speed, and let me tell you, if your timing is off catching an arrow in flight, it's a bummer.

Seriously though, unless you work for a traveling circus throwing knives at pretty girls, live blade work is both dangerous and counter productive.

** disclaimer** those of you who work with Swords might have good reason to use live blades, don't know never trained in weapons.
_________________________
Undefeated in all of Asia!

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#386604 - 03/15/08 02:12 AM Re: How many train with live baldes? [Re: Kimo2007]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
It's something to do only ritually with a trusted training partner, with the understanding that it is after all, pretty stupid. The only benefit I see from it is gaining 'respect for the blade', which seems to be a recurring theme in the FMAs. However, you can gain the same respect by using aluminum training blades, as they are still pretty scary and they are definitely pointy. You can also train realistically with them, and if they fall on the floor you don't have to worry about your nice fancy sword or knife getting chipped or dulled.
I like to flick balisongs around for solo practice. I use them to slice open UPS packages. I've gotten pretty good, and most cardboard and tape products have learned to fear me.

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#386605 - 03/15/08 05:54 PM Re: How many train with live baldes? [Re: janxspirit]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hideous choice of words mate, an example of the "Darwin Principle" in action

Jeff

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#386606 - 06/08/08 09:13 AM Re: How many train with live baldes? [Re: janxspirit]
Inner_Ear Offline
Member

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 29
In addition to the comment posted by the iaido-ka, those studying kobudo often don't start training with bladed weapons until 1st dan. Kamas are an excellent example (the little scythe-like weapon). When the student is ready they're given a set of wooden ones, and here's one of the reasons: When perferming or practicing a few of the techniques, the blade ends up on the opposite side of your back. If you're not careful, you end up removing your own kidney.
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Success cannot be attained except by piling effort upon effort.

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#386607 - 06/08/08 11:52 AM Re: How many train with live blades? [Re: Inner_Ear]
ttruscott Offline
Annoying ex-Member who tries to advertise on every post

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 31
Loc: BC Canada
Live blade training is mandatory... if you want to learn how to cut.

But not with a partner for all the good reasons given so far.

If you are not cutting all kinds of targets, stationary and moving, wth your carry blade, you are not learning how to cut.

My arnis training started with movement skills and patterns. My Western blade training started with how to cut properly and then went to patterns and uses of the various cuts.

For live blade simulation, I like a false blade that mimics my carry blade the best - I use the Spyderco drones for non-technical defensive practice. I got them as seconds at the Spyderco factory outlet in Boulder at half price. !

Ted



Edited by Cord (06/09/08 02:16 AM)

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#386608 - 06/09/08 12:00 AM Re: How many train with live blades? [Re: ttruscott]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Are all 31 of your posts directed at selling your products here without the consent of the site owner?
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#386609 - 06/09/08 02:18 AM Re: How many train with live blades? [Re: BrianS]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

Are all 31 of your posts directed at selling your products here without the consent of the site owner?




Agreed. Clever advertising is still just advertising. You have been asked to refrain from such links, and then you were warned about it. now comes the time where the site and you part ways.
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Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#386610 - 01/29/09 12:54 PM Re: How many train with live blades? [Re: Cord]
eskrimador Offline
Stranger

Registered: 01/29/09
Posts: 4
Loc: Indiana
Whew, touchy subject. I'm going to go out on a limb on my first official post here, and admit to being one of the dummies who trains regularly with live blades. I work with very high risk juvenile offenders for a living, and the chances of my being attacked with a bladed weapon are extremely high. I can't afford to go into that situation prepared with anything less that realistic training. At our school with my students, we make live blade training a regular part of the curriculum. The art we practice is based upon the blade (from tactical folders up to and including the barong, kris, bolo, etc.), and although we use wooden and aluminum training replicas, we do knife tapping and line drills with live blades. It's kind of like the difference between practicing empty hand non-contact sparring and contact sparring (at whatever level of contact you choose)...I've seen way more people injured in non-contact sparring than in contact sparring. At some point in your training, you simply have to put on the gloves and as Bruce stated, get in the water. When the element of real danger is there, your whole mind-set changes. You are focused on the moment, what the Japanese martial artists call "Mushin". You can't let your mind wander, a less-than focused mind can cause real injury, but then again, we are practicing life saving arts here...we are therefore honing real life saving skills with live blade training. Now, we aren't stupidly hacking away at each other, the point is to develop sensitivity, real sensitivity, and we have found that without the live blade, the emotional and mental aspects that must be honed to effectively defend against the blade simply aren't being developed. We begin slow, then work our way up, according to the student's comfort level and pace...the point is to develop skills, not to send people to the hospital as a matter of course. We aren't crazy, we don't have scars we wear as badges of courage (in fact, no one has been hurt yet in many years of this training), but the live blade is an essential tool in our training. The key word here is "tool".

But then again, that's just me and my take on the subject...

Kim
_________________________
"You must be the change you want to see in the world" Mohandas "Mahatma" Gandhi

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#386611 - 02/14/09 03:51 PM Re: How many train with live blades? [Re: eskrimador]
KJ63 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 128
Loc: Midwestern U.S.
Eskrimador… I was really confused by your post.

Quote:

When the element of real danger is there, your whole mind-set changes.



Quote:

We aren't crazy, we don't have scars we wear as badges of courage (in fact, no one has been hurt yet in many years of this training)



So is there an element of danger or not? People get hurt sparring every day, even with pads on. It might be a bloody nose or something as simple as a bruised ego. That is one of the factors that get a persons adrenaline pumping and heart rate going… If I know I’m going to participate in something where I know no one has been hurt whether it involves a live blade or not then where is the real element of danger?

Quote:

we have found that without the live blade, the emotional and mental aspects that must be honed to effectively defend against the blade simply aren't being developed.



Quote:

Now, we aren't stupidly hacking away at each other…



Unfortunately “stupidly hacking away” is what a real opponent who has the intent on hurting or killing you will do. Doing simple drills or preset attacks, or training against an opponent who has no intent on seriously hurting you with a live blade is doing nothing but teaching what I would call blade handling. Without intent you are missing one of the key mental and emotional aspects of a real situation. If you train intent and use a live blade, then someone will get hurt. If you don’t believe me I will gladly come to your school and play the part of the guy with the knife.

I have tried several types of blade training.
*** With a marker or a marking type of knife you can train intent but it lacks the danger of a live blade
*** With a live blade you can practice blade handling both offensive and defensive but there is no real intent if you are trying to be safe
*** Live blade with intent is just stupid unless you are a cutter and enjoy the pain.

What else is there?
*** We used to use a stun gun to train with. Fear of being shocked keeps the element of danger there, but because there is no cutting, bleeding or death involved the person attacking you can use all the intent a real attacker might use.
*** They now have a shock knife (wish we would have copyrighted this idea when we were first using the stun gun) http://www.shocknife.com/ of course these are pretty expensive…

What’s the real problem in all of this?
The real problem is that a knife is a weapon of assassination. You will never see it coming, you will only feel it. A person who really knows how to use a knife will come at you from a blind spot or from behind, or if you engage him (not knowing he is armed) he will wait until you are in a clinch or on the ground to retrieve it and bury it in you. If you see him coming he will not have his knife hand forward. He will have his free hand forward which will be defusing any attempts you have at blocking, and his knife hand will be pumping like a piston at any vital area he can get to. The Hollywood fantasy of the guy who presents the knife is a thing of the past if it ever existed at all, and people today are more prone to violence. Most bad guys realize it is much easier to take a wallet off of a dead guy than it is to ask for it.
_________________________
You must not fight too often with one enemy, or you will teach him all your art of war.

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#386612 - 02/14/09 08:53 PM Re: How many train with live blades? [Re: KJ63]
eskrimador Offline
Stranger

Registered: 01/29/09
Posts: 4
Loc: Indiana
All I can say is that we come as close as we can to reality in our training while trying to maintain safety, that's all anyone in any martial art, weapons or no weapons, can do.

BTW, I am also in the Midwest, Indiana to be specific.

Kim
_________________________
"You must be the change you want to see in the world" Mohandas "Mahatma" Gandhi

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#386613 - 02/21/09 09:51 PM Re: How many train with live blades? [Re: eskrimador]
Mafia Offline
Stranger

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 1
Quote:

Whew, touchy subject. I'm going to go out on a limb on my first official post here, and admit to being one of the dummies who trains regularly with live blades. I work with very high risk juvenile offenders for a living, and the chances of my being attacked with a bladed weapon are extremely high. I can't afford to go into that situation prepared with anything less that realistic training. At our school with my students, we make live blade training a regular part of the curriculum. The art we practice is based upon the blade (from tactical folders up to and including the barong, kris, bolo, etc.), and although we use wooden and aluminum training replicas, we do knife tapping and line drills with live blades. It's kind of like the difference between practicing empty hand non-contact sparring and contact sparring (at whatever level of contact you choose)...I've seen way more people injured in non-contact sparring than in contact sparring. At some point in your training, you simply have to put on the gloves and as Bruce stated, get in the water. When the element of real danger is there, your whole mind-set changes. You are focused on the moment, what the Japanese martial artists call "Mushin". You can't let your mind wander, a less-than focused mind can cause real injury, but then again, we are practicing life saving arts here...we are therefore honing real life saving skills with live blade training. Now, we aren't stupidly hacking away at each other, the point is to develop sensitivity, real sensitivity, and we have found that without the live blade, the emotional and mental aspects that must be honed to effectively defend against the blade simply aren't being developed. We begin slow, then work our way up, according to the student's comfort level and pace...the point is to develop skills, not to send people to the hospital as a matter of course. We aren't crazy, we don't have scars we wear as badges of courage (in fact, no one has been hurt yet in many years of this training), but the live blade is an essential tool in our training. The key word here is "tool".

But then again, that's just me and my take on the subject...

Kim




Sir you are talking about weapon, you may do a seminar at Kuala Lumpur Malaysia and we will see that your weapons practice..

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#386614 - 03/24/09 01:28 AM Re: How many train with live baldes? [Re: janxspirit]
Demonologist437 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 159
Loc: Hodunk, Illinios
Both of my FMA instructors(Kali and Eskrima respectively) I know train with live blades, but that is the choice both of them make.

Insofar as their students are concerned, the Kali instructor may put a blunted metal sword in your hand to be able to appreciate the weight & feel of the weapon with regard to technical performance.
The Eskrima instructor collects certain weapons and will occasionally take one out to use, but that is it. I have not yet heard anything about "live blade training" as part of a cirriculum somehow yet.

Both instructors have been training in excess of ten years, so I leave their decisions up to them.

I think that if you are in a confrontation which has reached a point to where you feel you need to actually take out a knife, you have officially messed up somehow or truly are in a bad place.

Neither instructor approaches knife/blade fighting as something akin to bare-hands, the attributes of the weapons are always used to drill.

Besides, blade-fights are like quick-draw competitions; first shot usually wins. I know few people who can deal with being cut open like in the movies.

Honestly, I write much of the live-blade training as myths from when FMA had just "come over" from the Phillipines.
The old masters may have had to carry a real weapon with them for protection, or serious have to consider using a sword.

However, old phillipines is not here. Stupid to train like that, quick way to get your throat cut. Respect the heritage of the FMA and the old training methods and the attributes they may help bring out. Do not fancy yourself a "knife expert" or "Blade Expert".

You can take a few hits with barehands, but you will take only two from blades. One to realize you have been cut, and then you don't feel what happens after the second.
_________________________
"Success is a process, not a destination. Have faith in your ability."~Bruce Lee

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#423408 - 11/05/09 06:02 PM Re: How many train with live baldes? [Re: Inner_Ear]
jessecrouch Offline
Blogger and Scientist
Newbie

Registered: 10/19/05
Posts: 14
Absolutely. I don't believe you can really learn it all without doing it at some point. There's so much that is not the same with sticks or even practice blades. How to hit properly, what happens to your weapon - you learn a lot about how to care for your weapon if you practice with it.

That's not to say don't be safe about it though. Don't do drills you haven't done before. Don't do it with someone who is not well-practiced. Don't spar and don't do full-speed anything. Wear eye, head and body protection, etc.
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#427397 - 05/26/10 10:26 PM Re: How many train with live baldes? [Re: Inner_Ear]
jafo Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/27/10
Posts: 6
Training live blades always changes your mindset, just look at how defensive and uptight people got with their replies. In a real situation what kind of mindset will you perform better with. You see a real blade and say to yourself ok its party time, or you can be oh my god its a real blade. Im not saying to do mindless drills over and over, but you need to be able to swing a large blade just like it is a stick. If you can't you are more than likely going to cut yourself at a time when you can't stop and get a bandaid. As my teacher says "if it matters what the other person is trying to do to you, you are probably going to die." You have to stay loose, and you can't predict for one second what your enemy is going to do or what kind of weapon they might use. So make your training reflect that type of mindset.

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#429412 - 08/26/10 03:07 PM Re: How many train with live baldes? [Re: jafo]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
I don't practice any FMA's but I do a fair amount of knife training. It's just another possible tool in my arsenal as a soldier. That said, I see no reason (and lots of reason not to) do any partner drills with live blades, no matter your profession or whatever. Like Cord said, if you do that you'll be holding back tremendously to the point of it becoming useless and ritualised. It's innefective for about the same reason bare knuckle step sparring is ineffective. Doesn't do any good if you kill yourself in training anyway. I do a lot of solo practice with live blades (3 and 4 inch folders) but never under any circumstances with a partner. For that I use rubber or wood training knives. You'll know if you get hit and that's all the feed back you need, to know whether your approach is working or not.

It's like force on force training with real bullets. Not a great idea.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#429419 - 08/26/10 03:32 PM Re: How many train with live baldes? [Re: janxspirit]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Originally Posted By: janxspirit
So how many of you guys support your stick training with live blade training? I like the way a blade forces me to focus on my stroke technique, and I just like to play with swords anyway <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

What bout you guys?


Never trained with a sword, my art did not do that. But I appreciate the sword and own one and keep it on my mantel more for visual purposes. But time to time like to pull it from the scabbard to marvel at it. I would have loved to have learned its use.

At the end of my training in self defense we were getting into knife defense however these were not real knives but rather ones made by one of my fellow students out of metal to get the feel and weight however blunt and fat so as not to have to worry about cutting yourself.

Training, definitely would not use anything sharp or lethal. As it takes years to develop any real skill, it is best just to leave that alone. Training is suppose to be as safe as possible with the exception of some bumps and bruises. Introduce something sharp then you not only have to worry about yourself but others; that in my opinion is a no-no.
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