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#386422 - 03/16/08 11:30 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: MattJ]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

I was actually referring to evidence of grappling/groundwork in kata. But even with the stuff you mention, there is very little in the historical record about grappling/groundwork in karate.

But we have been over this before.




I think there is. So keeping it basic.

If a guy decides to train, to begin an art.
It has no name as yet.
It has no kata yet.
He trains really hard to get physically fit and strong.
He trains just hand/ forearm strikes really hard doing them literally thousands of times on a maki wari
He trains in very basic parrying of strikes
He trains in one grappling method namely a fishhook to the mouth.
The defender is attacked
At some point the fight goes to the ground with the attacker ending up in a semi badly done kese gatame

position and the attacked is on his back.

The attacked reaches over and fish hooks the attacker and pulls his self from underneath to a position still on the ground where the attacked has the attacker now lying on his back. He can now strike the attacker.

Is that termed Ground fighting/ grappling on the ground ?

Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/16/08 12:06 PM)

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#386423 - 03/16/08 12:40 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: jude33]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Onceagain jude, you are missing the point entirely.
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#386424 - 03/16/08 01:32 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
_________________________
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#386425 - 03/16/08 05:57 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: student_of_life]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:






My thoughts.

Fine by me.

Ti ie. Fin-Di, Ura-Di
A very Limited amount of the above became,

shotokan karate.

Jude






Edited by jude33 (03/16/08 06:19 PM)

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#386426 - 03/16/08 09:17 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: jude33]
JAMJTX Offline
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Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
I don't know how I missed this thread after all this time.
But to say there is no grappling, joint locks, chokes, etc in Karate is just plain ignorant. They are all right there in the kata, where they have been fro probably hundreds of years.
The kata of Goju Ryu, with the exception of the few created by Miyagi, came directly from China and are still practiced in some form there. Are you also going to say that Chinese arts have no grappling, joint locks or chokes? There are also ground fighting applications in the kata.

Mabuni Kenwa, the Shito Ryu founder, was a police officer.
That means he was arresting people - putting them on the ground and tying them up. He taught at the police station.

Why would you think that he would ignore grappling and the ground aspects when that was such a big part of his life.

Just because you don't know about something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

If all you do is go to some mcdojo and train in point fighting, then of course you will not learn any real world self defense. If your karate teacher is not teaching grappling, chokes and ground fighting (like I learned in Goju Ryu), then you may want to have a talk with him. If he tells you this does not exist in Karate then leave and find a teacher who has been properly trained.

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#386427 - 03/16/08 10:05 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: JAMJTX]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
I have been saying grappling does and has to exist
in karate. Including ground fighting.


Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/16/08 10:09 PM)

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#386428 - 03/16/08 11:45 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: Neko456]
Unyu Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 62
Loc: Where I'm At
Quote:

I don't see the point of showing Karatekas doing regular Karate moves and saying that its groundfighting in the since that we are stating, of course there has always been kneeling finishing techniques and counters to them grappling. But not hold down or rolling techniques as in Wrestling, Pankration, BJJ/Judo, Sambo or Jujitsu. I've studied Judo and some of the others Japanese arts and know the difference. At one point your rarely saw Jujitsu using many hold down or submitting from the ground techniques they would go in for the maiming technique as did Karate.

Theres no debate it exist but not in the Kata system past on in Karate. I never even heard that it was implied as stated above JJ rarely used hold down submisson unless they were taken prisioners otherwise like Karate they took no prisioners.




They are in the kata. You know I've even had high ranking Shorin guys tell me the same thing you are, and truthfully and respectably, they did not have the all-around base to make their claims. Their Okinawan Shinshi would laugh at them while applying a rear naked choke from the ground.

The point in showing the vids is to illustrate how groundfighting is different in karate vs. JJJ. The intent in Japanese grappling was to allow for a way to fight one-on-one, usually in armor against another armored and armed opponent. The Okinawans did not adapt techs from armored mano-a-mano combat because their opponents and needs were very different.
The Okinawans took some chin-na, tegumi, and shuai jiao, and depending on the system a little Jigen Ryu, then added these to their ti techs.

Kyusho and torite were their answers to JJJ. Also many of the Peichin were cops or bodyguards. They did learn ground restraints and submission techs. Many were sailors on tribute ships and learned groundfighting as part of their toudi training. They had to defend themselves in port and on ships against pirates attempting to steal goods and/or the tribute being sent to China.

Did they learn scarf holds or other ground restraints? Yes to the latter and no to the former. What the hell use was it for someone to lie on the ground and hold someone in place? To receive more points in competition or to get the pin? Come on now you guys need to learn some real karate before you ask why karate grappling isn't Judo/JJ. It is a purpose driven thing. Wrestling for samurai as opposed to wrestling for civilians, bodyguards or peace officers, is very different, even nowadays.

The question I ask is why do I hear all this junk about how you NEED to learn submission grappling if you are a karate person, yet most of you know squat when it comes to BJJ. It makes you look like you're bandwagoneers who came late to the dance. It is ludicrous.

I am sorry there are so many mediocre non-yudansha on here who are searching for the answers to the huge gaps in their training by swearing that their lack of knowledge of true Okinawan MAs makes their opinion's valid. Opinion w/o knowledge is just speculation and has zero value in a debate except to effect a good guffaw.

I respect your opinion Neko, but what do you know about real groundfighting? If you understand that the modern form or very rare Japanese form was for armored soldiers not unarmored Okinawans you would never jock the moot point that others are pushing in this thread. There was no pure groundfighting in toudi. The groundfighting of tegumi was a sport which the Okinawans used to round out ti by ADOPTING the SALIENT techs and DROPPING the IRRELEVANT ones.

Someone who lives in the desert and has never seen a tree wouldn't have a clue as to what one is or even should look like. Even if you have him/her climb it.

A lot of the so-called karate done by you cats is missing so much, it really is useless arguing with you about the real. Yet I feel compelled to use what I know to help you understand what is closer to the ideal and what is rubbish. The rubbish karate caused karate to lose face amongst folks especially after the advent of the UFC. I and other real karate types need for you guys to represent to the fullest so we aren't all lumped into the wack karate hack category.

If you only know some modern version of karate or kenpo, you need to seek a really good Okinawan style sensei. Otherwise you will always feel incomplete when put up against a good Okinawan karate stylist. Your MA will be waki-waki. You could also go the MMA route and learn wrestling/BJJ like Chuck Liddell, Lyoto Machida (Shotokan) and other modern sport oriented karate-ka/kempo-ka have. You will be set then, although it would be overkill.

You can tell Mr. Dulaney and Mr. Perez that their groundfighting is not salient for Okinawan Karate, but their well-roundedness will prove you wrong. They definitely understand what true karate means, and they are training accordingly.
_________________________
Verily and mayhaps, the morrow beckons, like watchtower beacons, and war does to weapons...

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#386429 - 03/17/08 12:11 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: Unyu]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
That is the purpose of this forum so that others can be enlighten. I don't see things as clears as you do here but as long as you have filled the gap it doesn't really matter the source.

But what the Pechin's or Palace Guards used to submit or detain court yard distractors or any disruptor doesn't explain why the Katas only suggest STAND UP grappling, now like the rhk there are somethings implied. Thats still a big implication.

But thats is the distinction betweem Judo/JJ and Karate the opponent that it was to be used against. The final analysis is this, you are not garanteed a victory because you think or were taught groundfighting exist in Karate, even if another learned his groundighting and is proficent at it from another source.

A RNC if not sunk is easily countered so its not as easy all that. Almost everybody can groundfight now. Am I ignorant because I don't see Naihanchi being applied from the ground?


Edited by Neko456 (03/17/08 12:12 AM)

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#386430 - 03/17/08 12:34 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: Neko456]
Unyu Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 62
Loc: Where I'm At
No it does mean you are ignorant, just that you don't come to that conclusion concerning Naihanchi training. Interpretation is often from a singular vantage point when it goes beyond the obvious.

I am by no means a scholar of karate. I'm well read, constantly hungry for the truth and diverse enough in MAs training. As others who don't know will have a very strict definition of what "ground" means, I feel as though it encompasses more than the philosophies of ring sport or submission wrasslin'.

Btw bruh' it depends on who is doing the RNC. If it's Rickson Gracie or Fusei Kise in his younger years you probably are gonna need some oxygen when they slap your arse awake! It depends on who is doing the choking vs. the chokee. Done right "no easy to defense".

Where's Jimmy Supafly Snooka when you need him?!
_________________________
Verily and mayhaps, the morrow beckons, like watchtower beacons, and war does to weapons...

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#386431 - 03/17/08 02:23 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: Neko456]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Neko, If you read Raul's comments on the "about this video" note, he explains where he's seeing correlation to the ground drills and Naihanchi.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_vocVEplsOY&feature=related

the ground drills shown (sorry if it's incorrect terminology):
switch-drills, full-body arm bar, top mount clear & ground-n-pound, bottom guard w/leg armbar release.

these drills were passed down exactly as shown since the time Naihanchi was developed? -or- crosstraining in other arts enables the claim?

again, as I said before, that argument doesn't matter from a function standpoint.

especially when considering Raul's good point here:

Quote:


Yes, some bag work and some training drills I have picked up from other styles I have fought against and worked with. BUT, hasn't this been the entire Okinawan tradition? Picking up the hard system of Chinese boxing, melding in Japanese Bujutsu after the Satsuma invasion in 1609, having top students train with other masters from other styles to better themselves?




yes, agreed. and therfore there is nothing wrong with acknowledging MMA/BJJ or other art influence PRIOR to being able to see it in kata. Not sure why people are stubborn to acknowledge their crosstraining, yet also want to stick to saying it's always been there. If it was there and part of standard training that was passed down generations from sensei to teacher since the authoring of the kata, then there wouldn't be the need for crosstraining to see it, or force-fit historical connections.

Not picking on Raul, his vid is great stuff and looks well rounded with the intent to address all ranges. I just happen to disagree that Karate kata was the vehicle that led to those ground techniques/drills. but I do not discount the training itself.

Since there are no kata on both knees or on the back, etc then I think it's in agreement that solo kata shows the body mechanics and physical dynamic of princples/techniques while standing with one or two points of contact to the floor.

Everyone's art follows their own desired question:
"How do I train my Okinawan karate for all ranges?" or another might set out and seek:
"How do I adapt and optimize my Okinawan Karate to be well-suited for competitive sport?"
yet another:
"How do I interpret and optimize my Okinawan karate to address the first few moments of a physical attack?"
or even:
"How do I soften/safety my Okinawan Karate so that it is paletable for a wider audience, since it's main focus will be for personal growth and spiritual development?"

and you know a peculiar thing? Each person pursuing their particular question can all 'see it in the kata'.


Everyone has different goals for their version of what Okinawan Karate is, and nobody can say they are wrong - because, I think Raul answered the heart of this thread's question at a fundamental level: That blending and changing based on the user's needs and influences IS the Okinawan tradition of Karate.

ah yes, and peace of course.

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