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#386462 - 03/18/08 11:11 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: BrianS]
Unyu Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 62
Loc: Where I'm At
Regardless of what folks think, they are just stating beliefs based on lack of knowledge. You guys don't know groundfighting yet you know gendai karate. Good for you, now go fight in ippon kumite.

Medulanet knows wrestling and groundfighting, so that is translated in his training. His system is rooted in the old AND the modern. Most of the karate-ka on here, Shotokan or not, are modernists only. They will stick to their guns and pursue their karate for their own reasons. From my years of experience on here with what you guys know and don't know about original intent karate, I can say that the responses are typical. Right in the norm so to speak. Very few of you have learned anything new in your training from what you post on here, and I guess you don't think that your ability to discern what is relevant or not is still lacking. That's to be expected. Wasting time with the superficial just because it's convenient to ones sensibilities and just convenient overall ain't my style.

Learning (heck, finding) a good old style art from a great teacher is a rare thing. Most pianists don't learn from a virtuoso, they learn from someone who is ah-ight. Right? So do you and leave it at that. Post your replies and threads, but those who know just laugh at the superficiality and lack of solidity represnted on TMAs forums.

I like this site because it makes me appreciate how rare real karate is. I am still searching for more than two handfuls of karate types (on these sites) who do real karate. The search continues, but I do see why most karate-ka bash what they've learned, subconsciously or not, because if I wasn't lucky enough to train with guys like Ron Lindsey I would probably feel the same way. Thank God that some us are not fumbling in the dark anymore.

The truth is that there really IS NO groundfighting in most of your karate/kenpo training. In fact there is very little real fighting methodology in what most folks claim is karate. So you guys need to go learn kickboxing, wrestling and BJJ like the rest of the lost souls in the karate world. Right now you're just playing period piece dress up and grab-ass. It is really to be pitied. Especially if you waste your time when you could be hanging out with your family or going out for a romantic evening or weekend with your significant other. I pity the fools!

This discussion can't be agreed upon, because some are speaking from experience and others from envy and obliviosity, a new word I invented just for these MAs sites. So round and round the same ole same ole goes and it will never stop. This conversation is moot IMVHO.

What you guys don't know doesn't dent the fact that some do know. You know?
_________________________
Verily and mayhaps, the morrow beckons, like watchtower beacons, and war does to weapons...

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#386463 - 03/18/08 11:18 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: chofukainoa]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

First, is why is everyone so kata-centered?




Who are you referring to?

Quote:

If a technique is not in a kata, does that make it invalid?




Ofcourse not.

Quote:

Should kata contain every possible technique there is?




No, and they don't.

Quote:

Is it even worth the time trying to "find" things there?





Only if it improves your training.

Quote:

If a very advanced karate practitioner wants to make a kata incorporating things from their other training, more power to them. But I agree with Ed--it's not even necessary to claim "it was always there". I think people need to get over making kata the be-all and end-all of their arts.





Exactly! Kata doesn't contain everything..so what?

Quote:

Of course, I am coming from the perspective of an art whose kata are much more transparent (not necessarily better--just simpler) and younger than those of most other styles. I think we use them for different and not-so-deep purposes. My personal opinion is that much of what differentiates one art from another is in their kihon and taijutsu. To those, any technique can be adapted.





What art is that?

Quote:

In my training, we do tuite standing grappling, joint locks and take opponents down to the ground, but so far I have only been taught to stay on my feet to maintain control and maneuverability. Even putting a knee to the ground is a no-no. We also train to evade tackles and takedowns, so there is obviously some recognition of facing an opponent who would do so...I don't know if this is "old" as much as realistic.





Each place seems to have adapted it's own training regiman based on what the instructor feels is necessary.

Quote:

None of this is in a "kata", although it's pretty much agreed that there are general connections and similarities to Ryukyu dance--I think primarily in the body mechanics.





+1 !!!

Quote:

Based on this thread, I plan on asking my sensei about "groundfighting" proper--I mean, two people down with one on top of the other. I haven't encountered any of that yet.




You might encounter that in your karate class. Groundfighting is in my karate class, but it's not 'from' karate.

Be cool in Japan!!
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#386464 - 03/18/08 11:39 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: Unyu]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Regardless of what folks think, they are just stating beliefs based on lack of knowledge. You guys don't know groundfighting yet you know gendai karate. Good for you, now go fight in ippon kumite.





You claim all the knowledge, yet you haven't shown us poor disillusioned karate wannabe's anything. Nothing, in all these years, under any of your names. Nothing but words and mean just as much.

Quote:

Medulanet knows wrestling and groundfighting, so that is translated in his training. His system is rooted in the old AND the modern. Most of the karate-ka on here, Shotokan or not, are modernists only. They will stick to their guns and pursue their karate for their own reasons. From my years of experience on here with what you guys know and don't know about original intent karate, I can say that the responses are typical. Right in the norm so to speak. Very few of you have learned anything new in your training from what you post on here, and I guess you don't think that your ability to discern what is relevant or not is still lacking. That's to be expected. Wasting time with the superficial just because it's convenient to ones sensibilities and just convenient overall ain't my style.





Have you trained with medulanet? Do you guys live together?

Quote:

Learning (heck, finding) a good old style art from a great teacher is a rare thing. Most pianists don't learn from a virtuoso, they learn from someone who is ah-ight. Right? So do you and leave it at that. Post your replies and threads, but those who know just laugh at the superficiality and lack of solidity represnted on TMAs forums.





And where do you fit in(besides belittling everyone over and over)? Once again, show us something.

Quote:

I like this site because it makes me appreciate how rare real karate is. I am still searching for more than two handfuls of karate types (on these sites) who do real karate. The search continues, but I do see why most karate-ka bash what they've learned, subconsciously or not, because if I wasn't lucky enough to train with guys like Ron Lindsey I would probably feel the same way. Thank God that some us are not fumbling in the dark anymore.





No, you like this site because it makes you feel superior. You type the same tired thing over and over about the "R3Al D34Dly Karate" and show nothing but discontent. You say you are searching for "real" karateka, yet medulanet is the only one here because his kata contain groundfighting, get "real" yourself doc.

What makes karate "real" anyway? That means diddly to me. I know what I can "REALLY" do. Do you?

Quote:

The truth is that there really IS NO groundfighting in most of your karate/kenpo training. In fact there is very little real fighting methodology in what most folks claim is karate. So you guys need to go learn kickboxing, wrestling and BJJ like the rest of the lost souls in the karate world. Right now you're just playing period piece dress up and grab-ass. It is really to be pitied. Especially if you waste your time when you could be hanging out with your family or going out for a romantic evening or weekend with your significant other. I pity the fools!





Please. How can you claim to know what I or anyone else here on this site is doing? I do know that you are sitting behind your computer right now with a leather mini-skirt and lipstick smudged all over your little face pretending to know something. Just as much as you "know" what I'm doing.


Quote:

This discussion can't be agreed upon, because some are speaking from experience and others from envy and obliviosity, a new word I invented just for these MAs sites. So round and round the same ole same ole goes and it will never stop. This conversation is moot IMVHO.






If you know it, show it. I'd like to take your psychopathic word for it,but I just can't.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#386465 - 03/18/08 11:53 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: BrianS]
chofukainoa Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 146
Loc: tokyo, japan
Okay, maybe not everyone, but part of the discussion here has been finding applications in and claiming validity from kata. Not you, now that I review the thread, but here are some quotes:

Quote:

But to say there is no grappling, joint locks, chokes, etc in Karate is just plain ignorant. They are all right there in the kata, where they have been fro probably hundreds of years.




Quote:

There are solid ground techniques in kata.




Quote:

Did the okinawans put a series of techniques in their kata to facilitate this very combination I suggest? Yes...People always ask why things in karate are a certain way. Maybe one day we will find out.




I'm just saying...i study an "old" style (Motobu udundi), but the kata we do are not old. The tuite and joint locks are also not in the kata we do. I would never say my art is better than any other, but since it is relatively unknown, I thought it was worth sharing that there is a different mindset towards kata and forms that can help see a way past kata. That's all.

By the way, what do you mean by "+1!!!"?


Edited by chofukainoa (03/18/08 11:55 PM)

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#386466 - 03/18/08 11:57 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: chofukainoa]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Got it, good thoughts and I am tracking with you.

+1 means add me to that thought or I agree.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#386467 - 03/19/08 12:23 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
For me its about giving credit where credit is due. I credit the genious of the creators of the kata of okinawa to their ability to be used in multiple situations. Again, I don't claim original application of kata. Its more about careful selection of techniques that work in all environments. There is a reason the okinawans chose the techniques they did. I'll just leave it at that.

Oh, and it is cool to start a thread that gets over 100 posts.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#386468 - 03/19/08 12:24 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Oh, and it is cool to start a thread that gets over 100 posts.







That it is! Makes for a good discussion no mattere where we stand.

Unless it's on the "real" righteous mountain,lol.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#386469 - 03/19/08 12:44 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: Victor Smith]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Hi Victor, We all make choices what we want our art to help us to accomplish...don't we? The kind of high-level fundamental choices that we could label prime assumptions.

One could choose to interpret kata as dance, while another could interpret the same kata for stand-up only self-defense of initial attack, yet another could interpret forms to address all ranges for well-rounded fighter training. and another still could see that same form to strengthen their competition venue. another chooses to imagine how the same kata was trained in the 17th century and theorizes how that training was optimized for a king's bodyguard needs. another sees the same kata as an empowerment and spirit delivery device to build confidence and sense of accomplishment even enlightenment. or maybe the kata is seen as a form of expression. perhaps a combination of the above.

nobody is wrong, but a choice is made, and a choice is followed/pursued.

If that's fair to say, then is it reasonable to suggest that those choices most likely have not have gone thru an unbroken chain of same choices thruout each generation, back to the inception of the kata?


It's documented that as late as the 19th century, in northern China, there were public street performers of MA schools who gave regular demonstrations every day as a sort of living advertisement to recruit for their school.
Some of the forms were created specifically to demonstrate movements considered 'enticing' to young adult passerby spectators. flamboyant acrobatics, over-eggagurated movements, emphasis on visual displays of power and energy. ie: katas designed to engage a 'wow' factor.

There is no implied shame in that. forms designed for a specific purpose and being sucessful towards that goal.

fast forward 200+ years, and witness, for instance, someone claiming their acrobatic forms, have always been used for battlefield combat and they train towards that end.
The training itself could be great stuff, but the historical claim might be suspect - especially when they choose to interpret a cartwheel in a form as a means to distance themselves away from an opponent. Or if they choose to interpret a backflip as a reverse kimura.

The same process of choice-making goes on when you hear an interpretation of naihanchi being a fighting form optimized for fighting when your back is on and defending a castle door against a crowd. While the next person might see the upright form as ground grappling principles, ...just transposed 90 degrees.

Both may be good at what they train, but can both be correct in a historical sense?

In the sense of choices, I'd say kata is extreamly universal - as you suggest, since anything can literally be anything a person chooses to train for and put the effort in to make work.

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#386470 - 03/19/08 12:51 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
understood, and I agree. hey, people can't afford to think and debate this kind of stuff during precious class time right? so this is the place to do it....not on the mat.

good discussion guys. got me thinking and it's appreciated.


btw, my personal choice has been to concetrate on 2-person kata principles for initial defense response while standing. plus the dual purpose of the simple fact solo kata is mentally and psychologically relaxing to me.

maybe historically and/or functionally I have that wrong as to 'true karate intent', but I'll take my chances.


If anything, the choices we all have make for an interesting discussion though.

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#386471 - 03/19/08 06:25 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: BrianS]
Unyu Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 62
Loc: Where I'm At
post deleted by shoshinkan


Edited by shoshinkan (03/21/08 04:58 AM)
_________________________
Verily and mayhaps, the morrow beckons, like watchtower beacons, and war does to weapons...

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