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#386352 - 03/12/08 06:09 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
No Zach, I have stated multiple times that a background in a form of grappling is actually a prerequisite to unlock the full potential of karate training. Nagamine did, Kyan did, and many other okinawan karate experts were also grappling adepts. Its just like any other supplementary training such as strength and speed work. Just as hojo undo is a part of okinawan karate so is grappling training. A technique is just a technique. Now, getting it to work takes a good training methodology. For example, a karate man should be stronger and faster than an average individual of similar age, gender, height, and weight due to karate's training methods. This person will probably not be able to out lift an elite level power lifter or pro strong man, however, he should not be a weakling either.
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#386353 - 03/12/08 06:17 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

No Zach, I have stated multiple times that a background in a form of grappling is actually a prerequisite to unlock the full potential of karate training. Nagamine did, Kyan did, and many other okinawan karate experts were also grappling adepts. Its just like any other supplementary training such as strength and speed work. Just as hojo undo is a part of okinawan karate so is grappling training. A technique is just a technique. Now, getting it to work takes a good training methodology.




I've nothing to argue with there, everytime I train with my teacher I try to make it for a bit of Judo as well, or I train with some Danzan Ryu guys I know. Obviously it improves one's Karate.

But this is not what we are talking about! Your first post seems to connote if anything that crosstraining is not needed, because it's "all in Karate".

So I am confuzzled about where you stand exactly.

It is interesting, you often see the flipside of this argument as well, where in a dedicated grappling art, such as a gendai Jujutsu, there is much talk about the place that striking occupies in the art.

Instead of going on and on like this, i'd be interested to know how you personally incorporate this stuff in your own Karate classes.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/12/08 06:31 PM)

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#386354 - 03/12/08 06:31 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Well, one point is that the okinawans were always ones to use different aspects of arts to develop and tap the potential of okinawan karate. I don't consider doing push ups cross training because strength training goes hand in hand with karate development. I don't consider grappling training cross training for the same reasons. When I did it at 14 no one said hey, hows the cross training going. Now people may refer to what I do as cross training. Should other people's views on what I do affect the way I veiw my own training? Is the fact that I don't label myself with the labels others put on themselves and others the problem? Is it not enough to simply state what I do and why I do it? I simply try to pattern my training after the okinawans of old because I believe that that will make me the best I can be. Since I don't have the cultural background to be exactly like them, I gotta be me, which is definitely not okinawan. I am not built like them either nor do I have the same mindset. Taking these things into considerations and my own personal background I develop a training regimine that makes sense for me. I guess that is what I am saying Zach. I don't know if that answers your question.
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#386355 - 03/12/08 06:31 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Matt has already expressed my thoughts on this matter.
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#386356 - 03/12/08 08:23 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: BrianS]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 602
Loc: London, UK
Med,

Within a karate class I have been instructed to continue fighting when on the ground during dojo sparring (any technique but with control), also grapple and while doing so attempt to takedown/choke/submit/escape etc. I was not taught specific methods from other arts but I was encouraged to find new uses for my karate. This is what I personally would consider Karate based grappling.
Learning wrestling or BJJ or anything that holds the label of a seperate martial art/sport I would call cross training.

As to the initial posts question about what karate standing principles one would employ after going to the ground:

Push and pull (if I push some place I pull somewhere else)
Breaking balance/root
Breaking fangs (damaging limbs, usualy if nothing else is available)
Flanking (try to reach the side or rear of my opponent)
Remain balanced when striking (try not to give too much away or open ones self too much).

I'm sure there are others I use and more still which I could use but I'm not that great at ground work. These are rules I keep in my head and aim for.


Edited by Shonuff (03/12/08 08:27 PM)
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#386357 - 03/12/08 09:27 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: haze]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Zach,

Sorry, I should have clarified the ground techniques. These are shown being done from the ground on a standing opponent.
(I'm not talking BJJ stuff)

Basicly throws/takedowns from the ground

One may be reffered to as a scissor take down, and then a sacrifice throw where you go down on your back and throw opponent over the top of you using feet.



My thoughts.
It stands to reason that all positions that happen during a fight should be taken in to consideration.

Fighting on the ground being one of them.
I cant imagine for one minute it would have been left out.

The term cross training with karate? If certain skills were lost in certain strains of karate then perhaps training in the skills, albiet in a different art, should put them back.

According to my studies a lot of the same techniques appear
in different arts anyway.

Jude

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#386358 - 03/12/08 09:45 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: Shonuff]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Shonuff, lets look at the definition of cross training.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/cross-training

According to this it is about training in different sports or different skills. If grappling is a part of karate, then training a different type of grappling to further develop the grappling techniques in karate would not be cross training. However, if one were to train in grappling to develop skills not contained in the grappling aspects of karate would be. For example, if I am Matsubayashi and train in a Goju class is that cross training? What if I train with boxers? What about training a wrist lock in karate and then training with an aikidoka to better understand that wrist lock. What if I train with submission wrestlers to better understand what they do so I can use my karate training to defeat it? They say people are usually defeated with that which they don't know. I'm not really sure. To me it really doesn't matter. Its just interesting how important it is to some to clearly define one's training and that of others. Its also funny that it seems as if this need to define karate on okinawa brought about alot of turmoil that is present to this day.
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#386359 - 03/12/08 09:50 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: medulanet]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Medulant:

I would agree with others who contend the art called Karate is not "ignorant". Some methods (most perhaps?) are designed for standing attacks/standing grappling... However, on the ground the art has beautiful, very functional technique both primary and as a secondary by product.

Being a martial art, we can study the "new" attacks and explore how to respond via kata principles & parody. No outside material necessary.

Merely my opinion, I could surely be mistaken,
Jeff

P.S. [If I cannot do that work, then see how another art copes see if their idea(s) exist in ours once their fresh vantage is engrained. ~... hummngh do we have that idea...~]

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#386360 - 03/12/08 09:57 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: Ronin1966]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Hello Medulant:

I would agree with others who contend the art called Karate is not "ignorant". Some methods (most perhaps?) are designed for standing attacks/standing grappling... However, on the ground the art has beautiful, very functional technique both primary and as a secondary by product.

Being a martial art, we can study the "new" attacks and explore how to respond via kata principles & parody. No outside material necessary.

Merely my opinion, I could surely be mistaken,
Jeff

P.S. [If I cannot do that work, then see how another art copes see if their idea(s) exist in ours once their fresh vantage is engrained. ~... hummngh do we have that idea...~]




Very well put. I like how you think.
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#386361 - 03/12/08 11:07 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: Zach_Zinn]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Quote:


Yeah, that's kind of weird Zach, who said that? Why would someone other than a mugger attacker want to pass someone's guard on the street? Let's not confuse self/life preservation strategy with sport. But now lets assume that YOU are the one on the bottom. What about ways to get up?




Heh while it was intended as semi- tongue in cheek, that was kind of silly of me to phrase it that way.

It wasn't you obviously, but I remember many moons ago being shown a guard passing drill and some other groundwork and being told it was part of Naihanchi. Coincidentally, this was in the 90's;)




Where was it before then? Has Naihanchi bunkai always been about groundwork? I think not. It's a marketing scheme plain and simple and you guys bit.

Quote:

Hey I fully agree that those things should be taught, especially how to get up! I just don't agree neccessarily that they are explicitly part of most Kata.




Or any part of any kata,period.

Quote:

I also think that for most people crosstraining is probably required unless they are lucky enough to have a teacher who is also proficient in a grappling art (hey, like you).




No one is disputing that.

Quote:

Whether or not this stuff is part of Karate, it seems to be the case that generally one needs some exposure to a dedicated grappling art to learn it.




Exactly!

Quote:

Maybe this will be less true in time, since now people corsstraining and integrating stuff is much more common.




Groundfighting is becoming more a part of karate and will continue to progress as people crosstrain and integrate,but it was not a part of it inherently. Some people just can't admit it.

Quote:

You yourself admitted that your wrestling background has merged with your Karate, do you think someone else trained in a comparable manner only in Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu would have the kind of grappling knowledge or ability to teach these things?




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