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#386402 - 03/15/08 01:12 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

Now, after getting that out of the way, does anyone feel that any techniques or principles from your karate training you use standing can be still be utilized no matter where the fight is taken?



I notice you didn't use the phrase 'kata training'. Karate (for me) is a stand-up art. If someone wants to blend ground grappling influences into their primary study - thats great, it's a personal choice either way. I've never had a problem with accepting someone's training strategy of incorporating ground techniques. For well-rounded training of all ranges, it's smart and makes perfect sense to do so.


If you are talking about a historical perspective, (at least as much as what is known from surviving books, photos, interviews, stories, etc). there is no evidence to support that ground fight training was part of 20th century karate.

the following points only apply to the 20th century. before that, so little is known about training methods, that it becomes a very thin case to make either way:

Pictures: where are the pictures of masters on the ground demonstrating technique? not cross-trained in judo masters, I mean karate-taught masters.

Books: where are the karate masters' books describing ground techniques? 'bunkai/oyo' from kata showing or mentioning ground technique. (not techniques from the ground to a person standing, I mean ground fighting tactics when both are down).

Interviews/stories: The only thing that is mentioned is informal yard wrestling as kids (tegumi) but not in the context of karate training method as it relates to ground technique. some masters had interest in sumo (stand up grappling). Some mention blended Judo or JJJ influences - but again not in the context of ground fighting within karate. The very few references are in the context of another art skill they gained from a separate source being ADDED to THIER karate. not in the context of it being passed down that way or being drawn from kata.


In order to believe ground training was always part of Karate and passed to today, you have to also believe nobody chose to show, document or mention it during the 20th century.


That it starts to appear in Karate during the early 1990's, is fine with me, I think it strengthens the art....and perhaps some on here always trained all ranges in their Karate class since they started in the early 1990's. Thats great. but if trying to force a historical case of unbroken transmission or even the historical link between groundfighting and kata, the evidence is just not there.

I'm not trying to justify stand-up only Karate. I think learning all ranges is the best case if you are going for well-rounded fighting skills. Similar to trying to derive point-sparring technique from kata would be silly, ground-fighting technique is also a separatly trained skillset.

kata-derrived training method (I believe) has focused and particular strategies for dealing with the first couple seconds of diffusing a defensive situation. and thats it.

but I realize thats a view that not all share, which is cool. actually, I think it's smart nowadays to expand skills beyond a narrow window. It's a balance everyone has to make based on training time commitment, physical ability and choosing our focus/interests.

The only thing I contend is the historical claim of saying all ranges of fighting were passed down thru Karate along a continuous transmission thruout the 20th century.

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#386403 - 03/15/08 07:00 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:




Pictures: where are the pictures of masters on the ground demonstrating technique? not cross-trained in judo masters, I mean karate-taught masters.







Not sure it his him lying on his back but they are from his book.
Not the best of demonstrations but I suppose its a beggining.

http://www.mogensgallardo.com/egami_beyond/pages/121-271_jpg.htm


http://www.mogensgallardo.com/egami_beyond/pages/120-267_jpg.htm

http://www.mogensgallardo.com/egami_beyond/pages/121-270_jpg.htm

http://www.mogensgallardo.com/egami_beyond/pages/121-272_jpg.htm

http://www.mogensgallardo.com/egami_beyond/pages/117-262_jpg.htm

http://www.mogensgallardo.com/egami_beyond/pages/121-270_jpg.htm







Quote:


Books: where are the karate masters' books describing ground techniques? 'bunkai/oyo' from kata showing or mentioning ground technique. (not techniques from the ground to a person standing, I mean ground fighting tactics when both are down).






Master Shigeru Egami
The Way of Karate, Beyond technique ?

1953


Edited by jude33 (03/15/08 07:11 AM)

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#386404 - 03/15/08 07:10 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: jude33]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
hi Jude,

I see where your going with this, but beleive me it is a dead end.

The pictures you show are from a Japanaes seiza position and are likely different to how most interpret 'ground grappling'.

one of the significant elements of ground grappling is the principle tactic of positional dominance, prolonged effort by 2 resisting people, to effect a submission.

The pictures you show do not demonstrate this, elements of it fair enough (but not good ones), it's not the same.

The body of evidence Ed has collated and presents is strong, the body of evidence that the whole of the Okinawan Karate movement over several decades presents is very, very weak in relation to ground grappling proper being part of classical Karate.

_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#386405 - 03/15/08 07:15 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: shoshinkan]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

hi Jude,

I see where your going with this, but beleive me it is a dead end.

The pictures you show are from a Japanaes seiza position and are likely different to how most interpret 'ground grappling'.

one of the significant elements of ground grappling is the principle tactic of positional dominance, prolonged effort by 2 resisting people, to effect a submission.

The pictures you show do not demonstrate this, elements of fair enough but it's not the same.




Well Jim (says he looking for an icon with the head slouched down)

Its a start so to speak.

But get your point.

Will keep looking.

Jude

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#386406 - 03/15/08 07:22 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: jude33]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
nice try though
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#386407 - 03/15/08 08:46 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: shoshinkan]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

nice try though




Early days yet Jim.

I ask myself these questions,

Why have certain kata been changed to be pure upright based? Politics?.

In comparison to kata performed in the 50's 60', said to be filmed in Okinawa with one of the top guys performing who again is said to have direct documented lineage to the masters?

Is the film real with that person?
If so;
Why in such kata are certain techniques shown to be pure groundfighting eg on one knee ( knee on chest )hand grabbing/clearing something while the other is punching/striking down? There is no chance of miss understanding the techiques intention. I think the escape from knee on the chest is in naihanchi?

That I assume would be part of a drill.
Were the drills from this kata at that time documented?


Still looking.

Jude





Like I said early days.

Jude

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#386408 - 03/15/08 09:13 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: shoshinkan]
Unyu Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 62
Loc: Where I'm At
Quote:

hi Jude,

I see where your going with this, but beleive me it is a dead end.

The pictures you show are from a Japanaes seiza position and are likely different to how most interpret 'ground grappling'.

one of the significant elements of ground grappling is the principle tactic of positional dominance, prolonged effort by 2 resisting people, to effect a submission.

The pictures you show do not demonstrate this, elements of it fair enough (but not good ones), it's not the same.

The body of evidence Ed has collated and presents is strong, the body of evidence that the whole of the Okinawan Karate movement over several decades presents is very, very weak in relation to ground grappling proper being part of classical Karate.






I kind of disagree.

I don't feel it is a dead-end unless you use the specific definition of groundfighting/ground-grappling as detailed in your reply. There are solid ground techniques in kata.

Chinto has a takedown to a throat strike/choke/lock akin to GJJ as taught in Gracie Self-Defense, which differs a bit from the prolonged "rolling" associated with the tournament oriented techniques. There are even strikes, kicks and standing locks in this part of the curriculum. Many who train in BJJ never learn this aspect of BJJ due to the fact that many dismiss the quick submissions and SD techs as impractical for their purposes. They don't care that they will work on an unsuspecting assailant, they want to do the stuff that is worthy for MMA. The Gracie SD tactics are two-man sets rarely including more than two or three actions. They are in response to bear hugs, headlocks, standing hand chokes, punches, and modern weapons to name a few scenarios.

They are the core of GJJ. They are the aspects of GJJ that Helio Gracie always wanted emphasized, but somehow they are not seen as being as relevant by the majority of BJJ stylists. Many of the techniques are done while still standing or kneeling. It is very similar to many of the situations and illustrations seen in the "Bubishi".

Karate's purpose is to stay upright as much as possible, but obviously from the kata that is not the only position one takes. Do you learn how to fight from the guard or even learn how to pull guard? No, but there are definitely ground techniques in kata. The use of one's hips is crucial in many kata as it is in a mount reversal, it just depends on if you are taught this or realize this. Do you learn how to knee mount someone as interpreted in kata? Definitely, but only if you learn it or interpret the movement(s) due to your experience or an awesome teacher.

The genius of kata is that it is a mnemonic for the mind/body, not necessarily interpreted in any specific way. It gives one positional relevance and flexibility, it is adaptable to numerous dilemma which often has much relevance to one's own physical, mental and experiential base. If done with logical mechanics it trains the body and mind to be better adapted to adapt. When I talk about "qigong" this is what I mean. How one breaks down kata and trains it for reality in simulated fighting really is dependent on the instructor's and student's accumen and skill base. The reactions are concise and decisive, yet you can also string them together.

As for Shonuff and his sarcastic comment concerning Hohan Soken, understand that if you ever really get the time to read the article still on the "Home" page concerning what tegumi was you'll see the sentence where Soken Hohan O'Shinshi states that broken limbs were often a result of these "light-hearted" contests. Understand that he did say this very tongue-in-cheek. BTW he did the interview in 1978. He understood what groundfighting was, and actually was hinting that that aspect of Okinawan Karate was child's play compared to the refined grappling of Ti. Wrestling alone was for games. The grappling of karate, the "ti" aspect, was for real life. You can't hate a guy because he knew what real Okinawan Karate pre-1940's was. Leaving Okinawa in the 1920's to return in the 1950's, he noted the change of most dojo on Okinawa, and even that karate was still closer to the full old style palate than almost all Non-Okinawan Karate. He changed his name and his regimen for the masses, but taught the select few his more orthodox form of Sui-di. BTW Hohan Soken's karate does have much, much more grappling than most (not all) gendai budo styles of karate. So does Okinawan Kenpo, Shorin Ryu, Goju Ryu, Uechi Ryu, Shinjinbukan Ryu, Bugeikan, Jukendo, Ishimine Ryu, etc..

I know what Medulanet is trying to get at. I understand exactly what it is he is saying and doing, and it has been done since the beginning of toudi. He needs answers and he's looking for them in his training. Karate is a MMA with emphasis on keeping your feet. It is an art where cross-training is encouraged once one understands one perspective well.

Later haters...
_________________________
Verily and mayhaps, the morrow beckons, like watchtower beacons, and war does to weapons...

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#386409 - 03/15/08 09:27 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: Unyu]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Good thought out post Bryan.

Excellent points for further study.

Jude

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#386410 - 03/15/08 09:28 AM Ti anyone?! [Re: Shonuff]
Unyu Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 62
Loc: Where I'm At
Here are some basic Bugeikan Ti torite techniques. The first shows an interpretation of the movement in Matsumura Seito Chinto I detailed in the previous post. Nothing fancy about the takedowns and they definitely predate the 1990's:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3KjIU3JIS8M&feature=related

Here's one from Oyata you guys have probably seen:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=qDacc8CWIwg

Here's Raul's vid again. I like his thinking and training:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_vocVEplsOY&feature=related

Good Kakie training even though the ratings are not so hot (wtf do suckas' know):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=81N_cZoStBw&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=qDacc8CWIwg

Just a few of the real Okinawan Karate grappling and ground techs out there if you search. Some are even more ground-oriented than these.


Edited by Unyu (03/15/08 09:51 AM)

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#386411 - 03/15/08 10:01 AM Ti time... [Re: medulanet]
Unyu Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 62
Loc: Where I'm At
I double posted a Goju Kakie vid in place of the Oyata video. Here it is:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=6zh1P7TmRs0
_________________________
Verily and mayhaps, the morrow beckons, like watchtower beacons, and war does to weapons...

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