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#386382 - 03/14/08 03:18 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


Yeah, that's kind of weird Zach, who said that? Why would someone other than a mugger attacker want to pass someone's guard on the street? Let's not confuse self/life preservation strategy with sport. But now lets assume that YOU are the one on the bottom. What about ways to get up?




Heh while it was intended as semi- tongue in cheek, that was kind of silly of me to phrase it that way.

It wasn't you obviously, but I remember many moons ago being shown a guard passing drill and some other groundwork and being told it was part of Naihanchi. Coincidentally, this was in the 90's;)




Where was it before then? Has Naihanchi bunkai always been about groundwork? I think not. It's a marketing scheme plain and simple and you guys bit.




No Brian, you brought it up. How quickly we forget what we don't want to remember.
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#386383 - 03/14/08 06:08 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: haze]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Jude,

Judo having strikes? This I really never knew.

I know that judo is a derivative of jujutsu and many schools of jujutsu had strikes, both hands and feet. I was under the impression that judo took that out and was created for sport just as kendo was created for sport.




Hi Haze,

My student thoughts.
To my mind and research judo as an art was not created for pure sport.
Part of it became a sport. Part of it became an education.
But like all usual sports and education it has to be seen to be safe . Plus at the time in Japan, I think society was trying to move away from violance.

The art of judo from a fighting perspective.
There is striking/ kicking and some realy nasty techniques in the art of judo.


The following is my thoughts for the discussion on the thread about cross training,

Kano created a fighting art from the different Ju- Jitsu
styles (and included the different masters of their arts) that were around at the time.
If you look at Kano's way of thinking and the correct use of randori and shia, then he created a method that would " Expose students to the STRESS and fatigue expected in combat , without too much danger of injury"
Has this idea been carried forward to some BJJ competitions?


So the striking and the nasty stuff was kept out of randori, shia, not out of the art of judo.
kata can be a training tool of any description.
It can also be a method of recording techniques.
It can also be a method of training/ recording principles.
One kata that teaches principle's in judo is a kata based on when and when not to use pure brute strength as opposed to un- balancing.

I dont think Judo is the gentle way, that is a pure miss-tranlation more than likely brought about by selling an art to the West.
Grabbing an attacker by the throat to do nasty things to them isnt gentle.
Punching and grabbing an attacker's testicles when they are on the ground completly helpless isnt sport.

So where are all these techniques that kano and others introduced in to judo?

In the kata and held in scrolls.
How are techniques in kata trained?
Isolated, drilled/ conditioned/ practiced.

What are the requirements for such training?
Strenght, fitness, being supple, conditioning, study and self study.

If on Okinawa grappling was a prerequisite for karate before a karate ka was trained in striking and the kodokan only trained people in striking after they had reached a certain level does that seem simular?

So is grappling part of karate? If it was a prerequisite
before striking then yes it is. If in judo strikes and the nasty stuff were trained later then is that not the same thing?

From my studies it also seems that there were techniques etc lost in judo for one reason or another.

Then training in grappling/ striking to what ever degree is more than likely taking an art ( that might no longer use them) back to where it came.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/14/08 06:35 AM)

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#386384 - 03/14/08 06:47 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: jude33]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
From my studies,
The term "Judo" to describe a fighting art existed as a name for an art before the term jujitsu/ Jujutsu was created.
App 200 years before Kano used the term for his art.



Students thoughts again.
Japanese jujitsu (and more than likely the arts that existed before the term jujitsu was used) would seem to have a lot of defence's from the knees.
Why ? Because the Japanese knelt. I presume the Okinawans did the same? So then it stands to reason that is one of reasons that techniques should be created for that purpose. Grappling from the knees? Does the original Japanese Jujitsu kata show techniques from the knees actualy on the knees?
Dont know yet.
More clues to the lost art of groundfighting in karate.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/14/08 07:14 AM)

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#386385 - 03/14/08 08:40 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: jude33]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Quote:

Does the original Japanese Jujitsu kata show techniques from the knees actualy on the knees?




Suwari Waza describes techniques when both partners are kneeling.
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#386386 - 03/14/08 09:27 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: oldman]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Jude

The impression I get, and I could be wrong, is less that grappling was a prerequisite of karate training, but rather wrestling was just something everyone did, like football is in England or chess in Russia.

If everyone in the uk plays footy as a child, then at 12 someone decides they are going to train to be an olympic sprinter most likely their background fitness and leg strength would help. However one does not need to be good at football to be a sprinter and no athletics club would require it of you.

I've seen nothing that especially links the two practices. One was considered a sport, the other a life and death discipline. Would knowledge of wrestling help a karateka? yes of course, but if it were concretely linked such that Karate skills were dependant on it then it would've been taught by the Okinawans who spread karate.

Karate and wrestling are seperate if complimentary disciplines. Dedicated ground work training is just utterly impractical for anything other than a ring fight, and while dueling did take place and fights would end up on the floor if it was ever a significant part of karate it would have been passed on along with everything else.

I don't understand why folks feel these things would've been hidden or lost by every single karate style founder (except Hohan Soken from whom God himself learned to fight).
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#386387 - 03/14/08 10:02 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques *DELETED* [Re: Shonuff]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Post deleted by jude33

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#386388 - 03/14/08 11:01 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: jude33]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
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#386389 - 03/14/08 11:22 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques *DELETED* [Re: jude33]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
From Shonuff.
Quote:

Jude

The impression I get, and I could be wrong, is less that grappling was a prerequisite of karate training, but rather wrestling was just something everyone did, .




I think that might have to be determined, some how.
Because if it was then there is a relevance.
.
Quote:





I've seen nothing that especially links the two practices. One was considered a sport,





From my point of view I did try to show the reason why
Kano did what he did. Wrestling as a safe sport is the same as randori in judo.

.
Quote:



The other a life and death discipline.

.



Judo has the same kind of stuff. Just it wasnít trained too much by the looks of things. Or perhaps it didnít fit in to the Japanese governments requirements?
Quote:



Would knowledge of wrestling help a karateka? yes of course, but if it were concretely linked such that Karate skills were dependant on it then it would've been taught by the Okinawans who spread karate.




These are questions I ask myself. I am not having a go at funokoshi. I think if anything it might have been the Japanese goverment at that time.
Where did "Chinese hand" go to?
Funakoshi Gichin in the 1920s introduced karate to Japan.

Named as "Karate" Was this new karate the same as Chinese hand taught in Okinawa? Was the Japanese Goverment at that time influencial as to what could and couldnt be taught in the now named katate?

Did they want the Chinese influence known about?

Judo. (The do part being budo)? was already set up in Japan.
That would take care of the grappling aspect.
karate- do Budo theme?
Enlighten-ment through training.
Striking part taken care of.

If grappling is a larger part of karate then wouldnít they clash?
Not too much of the dirty stuff taught in karate as Japans society had moved away from violance? Ditto judo?
Education was one of uses for the arts in Japan.


Quote"
"Funakoshi's take on the use of karate was reported to have caused some recoil in Okinawa" So he didnít return to Okinawa.
Again not blaming Funakoshi.

Why did it cause the stir?
Something I am looking in to.





Karate and wrestling are separate if complimentary disciplines. Dedicated ground work training is just utterly impractical for anything other than a ring fight, and while duelling did take place and fights would end up on the floor if it was ever a significant part of karate it would have been passed on along with everything else.




Lets look at Geoff Thompsonís take on self-defence.
Standing
Kneeling
Ground fighting

Passed to whom?

Quote:





(except Hohan Soken from whom God himself learned to fight).




Maybe he knew and let out the truth, who knows.

Still studying
These are the questions I ask myself.

Kneeling in Okinawa?

Japanese jujitsu seems to show self defence while both are kneeling.

If ground fighting is said to be of little use then why did
the kodokan get beaten by fusen ryu? Then employ and integrate the head guy?
From what I can gather the head guy had all the ground moves and it there wasnt really too much in the syllabus of fusen ryu?
So where did he get it from?
Why does Geoff Thompson train it?

Why is part of BJJ's teaching so concentrated on the strategy of going to the ground?



So as far as I am concerned all aspects should be trained.

I cannot see how all parts of fighting are not covered.
I think the art of judo in the end covered all aspects. Then the sport of throwing became the norm?

Why throwing? Because it fits in with budo? Because it more of a spectator sport? Samurai thinking.? Except even samurai must have covered ground fighting.
Donít hold me to the last part. I am still looking at that part.

All in all things donít add up.

But to earn money/ get students and be accepted by a government certain things might have been changed.


Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/14/08 11:55 AM)

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#386390 - 03/14/08 11:40 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: oldman]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Shotokan Suwari Waza

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8tTFS-ArAk




Thanks Oldman.
Great find.
My thoughts
A quote from a Sosuishi-ryu Jujutsu site.


If we think of kata as one fight from beginning to end we will never receive the full benefit that it has to offer. And more importantly, if we practice the bunkai in the order or set pattern of the kata, without making the necessary adjustments in our stance, strikes etc., we will be practicing incorrect waza, which would be ineffective in combat . To practice bunkai in this fashion precludes its very benefit. At this juncture, a proverb comes to mind that I'm sure we all have heard, "Practice makes perfect." I dare to say that this is not entirely correct. I elect to add one word to this; "Correct practice makes perfect."

Does such a quote apply to all positions?

Jude





Edited by jude33 (03/14/08 12:06 PM)

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#386391 - 03/14/08 12:20 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: jude33]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Old man please exscuse the post delete.
Wasnt intentional
The question wasnt just specfic to yourself. I was generalising to all on the forum.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/14/08 12:22 PM)

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