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#386442 - 03/18/08 11:42 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

what has not been integrated into karate from another art?




exactly! now you are seeing my point.

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#386443 - 03/18/08 11:44 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Brian, you say there is no wrestling style shooting in kata. You are right in that in karate we penetrate (no knee on ground shooting here, this is fighting) and use strikes both before the shot and sometimes even once we get in deep for distraction). Then pick him up and put him down. This statement you are making is strange Brian. Now it seems like you don't believe there are takedowns in karate either. If you read Funakoshi's book "Karate Jutsu" he even talks about getting in close and capturing an opponent's legs in order to put them down on the ground. Now this is the pre "1991" pre Japanese Budo 1920's Funakoshi. You should check it out.
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#386444 - 03/18/08 11:47 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Quote:

what has not been integrated into karate from another art?




exactly! now you are seeing my point.




Umm, Ed, I don't know how to tell you this, but I have always maintained that this is the case. But this is not your point is it. Your contention is that there are no ground fighting principles in kata or karate training at all. And in fact you have stated numerous times that any that have been added have been done so prior to the 1990's.
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#386445 - 03/18/08 12:14 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: medulanet]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
If Nagamine already was satisfied with his groundfighting skills why did he attain a Black Belt in Judo?

Was it to show them what he could do or learn to better what he already knew about Grappling. I think it was to learn.

There is no argument that grappling exist in Kata and Karate especially in the Naha-Te Branched arts (Body slams and leg takedown are trained in Trad Bunkias) the debate is wheather groundfighting rolling is trained and passed on through Karate's Kata. Kusanku's night fighting portion is now introduction to all thats involved in rolling and I guess every kiba dachi is a guard.


Edited by Neko456 (03/18/08 12:18 PM)
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#386446 - 03/18/08 12:34 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: Neko456]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Neko,

It is questionable whether we can understand Nagamine's reasons to study Judo. I recall he was a Police Officer in Japan, it may be likely it was a group activity for his department, as well as a desire to learn something new.

Personally I maintain the entire debate is 'ground-less' <GRIN>.
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#386447 - 03/18/08 01:10 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: Neko456]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

If Nagamine already was satisfied with his groundfighting skills why did he attain a Black Belt in Judo?




Read his book. Nagamine was only awareded a black belt in Judo because he trained a team of white belt judo police officers from his department and won the All Okinawa Judo Tournament. Now, how did a karate man who knew only a little judo train a team of novices to win the Okinawa Championships? Well, in his book he also stated he trained them in karate as well. Now that is really interesting. Why would a person train people who were entering a grappling tournament in karate? In addition he talks about one officer who died in training. I assume that is because Nagamine trained them in the old style karate throwing methods which did not include breakfalls for safety but were designed to maim. It seems like his grappling methods were very effective.
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#386448 - 03/18/08 01:42 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:


Umm, Ed, I don't know how to tell you this, but I have always maintained that this is the case. But this is not your point is it. Your contention is that there are no ground fighting principles in kata or karate training at all. And in fact you have stated numerous times that any that have been added have been done so prior to the 1990's.




incorrect. There is groundfighting in karate training if it's put there....my point is that the groundfighting drills are not inspired by the kata.
Instead, someone who crosstrains will find kata applications inspired by the crosstraining.

NOT a bad thing. but it becomes a dubious claim to then say: "kata has always had <insert crosstrained art skills here>"

when if in fact, the outside influence may have came first THEN it was 'discovered' in kata.



an illustrative example - If touching the ground in kata is a prerequisite to 'groundfighting', then one could easily find ground-fighting in Capoeira, but only after crosstraining in a ground-fighting art. Since Capoeira touches the ground with many more surfaces of the body than kata (kusanku), then there must be alot more groundfighting to find in Capoeira than Kusanku or any Okinawan kata for that matter.


So if a Capoeira stylist were arguing that their art ALWAYS contained groundfighting (which convienently happened to look exactly like BJJ for example), you'd be hard pressed to believe them in the historical sense, since you also find out that the Capoeira stylist was previously awarded a blue-belt in BJJ.

What they are training may be great and interesting stuff...what they are claiming in the historical sense is bunk.

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#386449 - 03/18/08 01:55 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Or maybe Ed it was the okinawans that put the grappling principles in the forms they took from gung fu based on their Ti which was a combination of grappling, joint locks, chokes, striking, and kicking. Like you said the grappling may have come before the forms, I don't deny that. But the question is was it based on the UFC craze, or was it always a part of the art of the uchinanchu people.
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#386450 - 03/18/08 02:04 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: medulanet]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Thats a big, if not invalid, assumption.

I think this debate is becoming a bit confused, or at leaast it is for me.

First off I think we should probably define what ground fighting is for the purposes of this discussion.
Unyu seemed to state that BJJ style ground work, i,e, fighting from your back or from a clinch on the floor was NOT Karate.
Most people seem to agree that Karate kata and traditional syllabus's do not include specific methods dedicated for this type of fighting.

I think what Unyu was trying to say is that the skills of stand up grappling, i.e. the manipulating of joints and limbs to escape holds and control the opponent, could be applied on the ground by a skilled Karateka.

I think most people here would agree with this although the concensus seems to be that standing grappling does not adequetly prepare a karateka for fighting from a position other than on both feet and dedicated ground training is needed to learn the specific ins and outs of ground work and become effective.

I believe Medulanet feels that wrestling training has always been inextricably linked to Karate training, i.e. occurred as part of the same syllabus in the same class under the heading karate. I believe he feels that this training included ground submission techniques for application against and from ones back being to the floor.

I think most feel that the standing aspects of what Med describes is valid and probably true but the issue comes in when we begin talking about actually fighting on the ground whether on bottom or top.

I think the confusion lies here where some agree wrestling was taught or practiced, as in a continuous standing grappling practice, but not ground work as in BJJ floor submissions.
And some feel that no grappling was taught or practiced.
And med feels that all grappling was taught and practiced.

I have trained in classes where we started sparring from a clinch with the aim to floor the opponent and thus we wrestled until time was called with more grappling than striking occurring in those sessions.
I think this kind of training was at one point and should be still, very common.
I've seen nothing to make me think Karateka ever practiced rolling around on the floor a la BJJ, and nothing to make me think we should unless training for that kind of tournament.
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#386451 - 03/18/08 02:06 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: medulanet]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Hi

From my studies it seems there was ti.


Quote from ;
Masters of The Shorin-ryu by Graham Noble
with Ian McLaren and Prof. N. Karasawa


Kyan taught karate at the Okinawan School for Agriculture and the Kadena Police Station, and besides this he taught many other students directly. He and his students would demonstrate karate in the region around his home of Kadena. Apart from karate he would often teach his pupils the traditional dancing seen at Okinawan festivals. Evidently he believed that these dances were related in some way to karate, and in this he was not alone. "If you go into the Okinawan countryside you will often see men performing a traditional dance to the music of the samisen," wrote Gichin Funakoshi in his first book, 'Ryukyu Kempo Karate' (1922). " This dancing resembles karate and is different from the usual maikata dancing. I think it is related to traditional Okinawa-te." Funakoshi thinks it?

It seems silat does the same.

The same was said by a Okinawan Kobudo teacher. I think he termed it karisse or something like that. The name escapes me. I could find it though. He was actualy said to have demonstrated the techniques from such a dance.


So was groundfighting diplayed clearer in these dances?
Did the original ti also have ground work recorded in dance?

Then I read about the population on early Okinawa
Seems like they came from all over Asia and had an input in the different stlyles of ti.

Just my on going thoughts.


Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/18/08 02:10 PM)

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