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#386432 - 03/17/08 06:59 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: Neko456]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:


But what the Pechin's or Palace Guards used to submit or detain court yard distractors or any disruptor doesn't explain why the Katas only suggest STAND UP grappling, now like the rhk there are somethings implied. Thats still a big implication.

But thats is the distinction betweem Judo/JJ and Karate the opponent that it was to be used against. The final analysis is this, you are not garanteed a victory because you think or were taught groundfighting exist in Karate, even if another learned his groundighting and is proficent at it from another source.

A RNC if not sunk is easily countered so its not as easy all that. Almost everybody can groundfight now. Am I ignorant because I don't see Naihanchi being applied from the ground?




Hi Neko,
Nope, def not ignorant.
Neither did I think it was there at one time. I am going the same route by still drilling old judo moves mixed with some MMA, moves.

And studying theory.

Its more than likely because the knowledge might have been lost or discarded by the generation of teachers who no longer needed it or didint want it or had to get rid of it?

looks like the at some time the Chinese and certain Japanese types to a degree frowned on ground fighting. Its perhaps one of the reasons why the head guy from another ryu beat the Kodokan on the deck. I dont think it was that big in his art. Still working out where he got it from. Bad way of thinking but I suppose it takes some one like him to open peoples eyes. Its like early BJJ competitions. Seems like human get a hard lesson, generations ignore it, then following generation have to re learn it.

So we aint ignorant. Just students. Because we aint reached the height of masters,,, yet. Then if some do, they can discard things?
For following generations to figure out.

Jude

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#386433 - 03/17/08 08:54 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: Unyu]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
am i ever sick of hearing people telling me to go learn learn "okinawian" karate like its the end all of fighting. i don't care what you call the art, or what the art comes from, if its intent is real fighting then train for it. just because i pratice a japanese style, that gives me no clue?

you make a lot a good points i personally agree with, but i can't stand to look at you on that high horse. BJJ isn't the end all either, it has a self defence section that some peolpe are saying is under emphasized in relation to the sport arena, isn't that universal of just about any thing?

im very sorry if people lump you into ineffective karate because of people doing things like shotokan and the like, but thats just tough isn't it?

"I am sorry there are so many mediocre non-yudansha on here who are searching for the answers to the huge gaps in their training by swearing that their lack of knowledge of true Okinawan MAs makes their opinion's valid."

please teach me thy sacred ways.

like i said, i agree with most of what you said about the karate stuff, but lay off the other junk. please.
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#386434 - 03/17/08 10:00 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: Ed_Morris]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
After cross training in other arts those drills are the same drills that all grapplers use. It looks just like Judo or Jujitsu or Sambo the back spinning drill is even done wrestling.

I guess if you go out on a limb you could say that every kiba dachi is sparall or a guard. Anyway people can say what they want they can give credit to cross traininng to there Karate system or they can be real and say that their base is this Ryu but I've studied many ways to make my way.

Until someone can show me a syllbas of study like in Pankration, Judo, Sambo or Silat where karate classes are studying, training and using ground fighting techniques in class on a grand scale prior to 1991. I will believe what I've seen. Except for ground and pound Karate doesn't have ground submission/hold down techniques within its Kata.

Let me say this Martial artist were winning fights way before the UFC, hell they were whipping two or more people doing things that the UFC Gurus said couldn't be done. So how effective is effective, if it works and been working for you Thats EFFECTIVE, but there is nothing wrong with waxing the paint to fill in the gaps.

I applaud Mr. Raul body of work but I don't see anything that would indicated that it came from any of Tekki/ Naihanchi forms.

Even if it is there, it is a long way around the block method train groundfighting practiced standing up? Almost like learning to swim by stayng on dry land.

All systems have their limitations there are no perfect Figting arts if there were we all be studying one art, most likely.

Jude33 I'm assuming you mentioned skinny Kyan (one of my heroes) defeating the Judoka, it was because he knew what Judo and wrestling was all about coming up he had been side stepped and kicked wreslters into rivers for years.

Stripping off his top and fish hooking the guy and making the Judoka say no mas, was just an esculation of no rules vs. rules. You don't stick your hands in the other Judo players mouth and try to tear his jaws apart, its a tough sport, but not that tough.

Kyan/little small eye understood the rules and knew how to play/fight outside them. My Man.


Edited by Neko456 (03/17/08 10:04 AM)
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#386435 - 03/17/08 10:13 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: student_of_life]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



am i ever sick of hearing people telling me to go learn learn "okinawian" karate like its the end all of fighting. i don't care what you call the art, or what the art comes from, if its intent is real fighting then train for it. just because i pratice a japanese style, that gives me no clue?






I think the on going study of different the disciplines of Okinawan karate, and the infleunces that created different disciplines of Okinawa karate, helps to better understand karate kata along with helping to give the knowledge of other skills that might help in a karate ka's devolopment.

So does cross training in other arts.
Quote:


im very sorry if people lump you into ineffective karate because of people doing things like shotokan and the like, but thats just tough isn't it?




Dont get the drift on that one.

I think the style of Shotokan has turned out some excellent fighters and karate ka. So has Wado. But I think there is stuff missing. It depends if a karate ka wants it.

S.O.L

For what it is worth. I think the video you posted some time ago of your take on techniques from kata was good.

Just my thoughts.

Jude

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#386436 - 03/17/08 02:09 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: student_of_life]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Chill Student, Unyu's tune will never change. Everyone knows that Shotokan when properly understood and applied, is the truest most deadly Karate in existence. Unyu is just mad as he only knows the most primitive style of Karate to make it out of Okinawa.
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#386437 - 03/17/08 06:30 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: JAMJTX]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

I don't know how I missed this thread after all this time.
But to say there is no grappling, joint locks, chokes, etc in Karate is just plain ignorant. They are all right there in the kata, where they have been fro probably hundreds of years.
The kata of Goju Ryu, with the exception of the few created by Miyagi, came directly from China and are still practiced in some form there. Are you also going to say that Chinese arts have no grappling, joint locks or chokes? There are also ground fighting applications in the kata.

Mabuni Kenwa, the Shito Ryu founder, was a police officer.
That means he was arresting people - putting them on the ground and tying them up. He taught at the police station.

Why would you think that he would ignore grappling and the ground aspects when that was such a big part of his life.

Just because you don't know about something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

If all you do is go to some mcdojo and train in point fighting, then of course you will not learn any real world self defense. If your karate teacher is not teaching grappling, chokes and ground fighting (like I learned in Goju Ryu), then you may want to have a talk with him. If he tells you this does not exist in Karate then leave and find a teacher who has been properly trained.




Where in kata is groundfighting? Isn't kata done on the feet?

Chokes, yes!
Grappling, yes!
Joint locks, yes!
Throws, yes!
All of these elements are contained in kata and then some.

RNC? pfft..
Sprawl? dir!!
Shoot? gimme a break.
Mount? nuh uh.
side control? gerk!

Groundfighting? Not!
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#386438 - 03/18/08 05:20 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Since there are no kata on both knees or on the back, etc then I think it's in agreement that solo kata shows the body mechanics and physical dynamic of princples/techniques while standing with one or two points of contact to the floor.




Actually Ed, seiza is a big part of karate training and not just for Zazen. As a kid we always trained striking techniques from seiza. In addition, if you look at Nagamine's book in the section concerning basic stances and techniques he mentions that kneeling techniques in kata are also used when sitting in seiza. Basically as transitions in and out of it. In addition, kusanku has a technique with three points on the ground. And most karate techniques dealing with a grounded opponent are meant to have two points on the ground and one point in contact with your opponent with the other one ready to strike. And this actually falls in line with grappling concepts. Rarely do you ever have more than two points in contact with the ground when fighting from a top position. Its just bad fighting. There are so many openings its not even funny.
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#386439 - 03/18/08 08:34 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Good points, Ed and Brian.
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#386440 - 03/18/08 10:11 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
yes, Aikido does similar - armed and unarmed from seiza as well. Plus don't forget Judo and JJJ 'ne-waza' drills.

any drill can be integrated from another art. and if it was integrated prior to you learning it, from your point of view, it's always been there.
Then, if you need to 'prove' it's always been there, to feel better about keeping traditions, you can turn a single movement in kata (in this case kusanku - the only Okinawan kata that have hands touching the ground: similar to a sprinter's stance at the starting line see frame #33 ) turn that one instance of occurance as justification to include JJJ and Judo crosstraining into your Karate, yet claim the skills gained from those other arts come from studying kusanku.

Thats whatcha call "B.S." -The training itself isn't B.S., it can be great stuff.
It's just the refabrication of history to serve current justifications is B.S.

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#386441 - 03/18/08 11:35 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

It's just the refabrication of history to serve current justifications is B.S.




Or maybe its simply called how seiza fits into the fighting techs/strategies of classical okinawan karate. As far as seiza goes all I know its what Nagamine has taught since at least the sixties. You are taking this no ground fighting in karate a bit too far. What I mean is that now any documentation against any arguement that you present is B.S. I have a question Ed, other than maybe the original tegumi what has not been integrated into karate from another art? The kata from gung fu, basics from Siamese boxing, other JJJ from Satsuma. Drills such as striking training from seiza is simply to hone weapons and skills so you can actually use the techniques/principles/strategies from kata. And you overlook that Nagamine relates seiza to the kneeling stances from kata. Wait, maybe that is another mistranslation from P.M. to promote his art.
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