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#386362 - 03/13/08 01:17 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: BrianS]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
On a related topic, I'd be interested in how you guys integrate the ground stuff in your classes generally.

For myself I have been teaching litte enough time that all we've really done is incredibly simple stuff like lapel chokes and side control, and it's not something we do that often.

Of course being Goju we do a fair amount of standing grappling, takedowns, and throws and on rare occasions we have actually "rolled" in class, but we are not good and it is mostly just for fun.

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#386363 - 03/13/08 02:05 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: medulanet]
Unyu Offline
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Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 62
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Good post. The majority of Okinawan men, and even some of the women (Matsumura's wife comes to mind) wrestled in childhhod as a means to test one's mettle, for the pride of the village, as a means to expend young energy, as a form of entertainment and as a consequence, a way to develop a young person's body. The natural progression was to wrestle at a young age and then at about 13 take up toudi. There was no need for them to learn wrestling when they had trained in a "live" environ during their formative years. Precise and effective bare-knuckle fighting is a skill set which requires many years of refinement w/o the distraction of relearning what was already ingrained. Add kicking and other techs and the lessons became even more involved. Ti was the refined grappling borrowed from tegumi and chin na. It also included striking therefore it is not synonymous with tegumi. Funakoshi has a chapter in his "Karate-Do: My Way of Life" biography which explains how integral wrestling on Okinawa was essential to being a much more adept and well-rounded karate-ka. Pick the book up along with "Karate Jutsu" if you want to take a peek at his karate before it morphed into gendai budo.

So in summary the great masters all were adept at wrestling so there was no need for them to pass on those skills they learned as children to their Japanese or American students. Ti, yes if you were lucky enough to train with a shinshi who knew Ti. Tegumi or wrestling, no, but it is seen on a very small scale in Okinawan Karate, even in kata. Mostly in take downs, locks and entanglements in a standing or kneeling position (knee on chest and/or head). This stuff has always been taught in a good dojo, even before GJJ became popular stateside.

Do you Medula', kcuf the world!
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#386364 - 03/13/08 02:54 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Made a long post addressing each of you points Brian. But I don't have the strength to compete with the marketing machine of American Goju. Another day, another time, maybe.
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#386365 - 03/13/08 08:07 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: medulanet]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Quote:

Shonuff, lets look at the definition of cross training.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/cross-training

According to this it is about training in different sports or different skills. If grappling is a part of karate, then training a different type of grappling to further develop the grappling techniques in karate would not be cross training. However, if one were to train in grappling to develop skills not contained in the grappling aspects of karate would be. For example, if I am Matsubayashi and train in a Goju class is that cross training? What if I train with boxers? What about training a wrist lock in karate and then training with an aikidoka to better understand that wrist lock. What if I train with submission wrestlers to better understand what they do so I can use my karate training to defeat it? They say people are usually defeated with that which they don't know. I'm not really sure. To me it really doesn't matter. Its just interesting how important it is to some to clearly define one's training and that of others. Its also funny that it seems as if this need to define karate on okinawa brought about alot of turmoil that is present to this day.




Med, to me everything you describe above, i.e. training in goju, training in boxing, training in aikido is all cross training. It may be cross training to supplement karate, but it is cross training, to me at least.

If you are just training genericly, i.e. in things that are universal or in Matsubyashi based training, with people from different arts while maintaining karate method and theory and not being taught as such, then that is not really cross training in my mind.

Please note that in the above I am not making any comment about what karate contains.

My opinion is that Karate contains strategic and physical control methods and principles which can be applied while grappling. As noted wrestling was a huge part of Okinawan culture so I don't feel that wrestling its self is part of a karate syllabus for the reasons Unyu suggests.
However being an effective and complete fighting machine is a different aim to learning the art of the empty hand. For that one should learn wrestling/grappling as well. They should also learn kobujutsu and shooting.


Edited by Shonuff (03/13/08 08:20 AM)
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#386366 - 03/13/08 09:04 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Med -

Quote:

Shonuff, lets look at the definition of cross training.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/cross-training

According to this it is about training in different sports or different skills. If grappling is a part of karate, then training a different type of grappling to further develop the grappling techniques in karate would not be cross training. However, if one were to train in grappling to develop skills not contained in the grappling aspects of karate would be. For example, if I am Matsubayashi and train in a Goju class is that cross training? What if I train with boxers? What about training a wrist lock in karate and then training with an aikidoka to better understand that wrist lock. What if I train with submission wrestlers to better understand what they do so I can use my karate training to defeat it? They say people are usually defeated with that which they don't know. I'm not really sure. To me it really doesn't matter. Its just interesting how important it is to some to clearly define one's training and that of others. Its also funny that it seems as if this need to define karate on okinawa brought about alot of turmoil that is present to this day.




The problem is that your defintion of what is inherently trained in karate is overly broad. Yes, there is grappling in karate. Yes there is strength training in karate. But the degree and specificity is very limited compared to those dedicated pursuits. By your definition of karate, I could include study of haute French cuisine - the karate masters ate, right? So they must have been excellent chefs. The original Bubishi might have had a great coq au vin recipe in there.

That said, obviously I am all about cross-training, and generally agree with you about how practice should be.
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#386367 - 03/13/08 11:02 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: MattJ]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



The problem is that your defintion of what is inherently trained in karate is overly broad. Yes, there is grappling in karate. Yes there is strength training in karate. But the degree and specificity is very limited compared to those dedicated pursuits.
That said, obviously I am all about cross-training, and generally agree with you about how practice should be.




Hi matt

I cant quite realy understand the jist of what was stated.
If weight training should be trained by karate- ka then why couldnt any karate ka who so wished take the weight training further ?

Miyagi was said to have an excellent grip?

Ditto with the grappling?

A punch is shown in karate kata.
But what is to stop a person training to have the potential so they could punch hundreds of times if need be in a confrontation?

Surely what is shown can be expanded?

Jude

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#386368 - 03/13/08 11:24 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: jude33]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Loc: York PA. USA
Missing my point entirely, Jude.
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#386369 - 03/13/08 12:37 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

The problem is that your defintion of what is inherently trained in karate is overly broad. Yes, there is grappling in karate. Yes there is strength training in karate. But the degree and specificity is very limited compared to those dedicated pursuits. By your definition of karate, I could include study of haute French cuisine - the karate masters ate, right? So they must have been excellent chefs. The original Bubishi might have had a great coq au vin recipe in there.

That said, obviously I am all about cross-training, and generally agree with you about how practice should be.




Matt, the thing is I don't consider what I do cross training, you do. I guess that is a really big issue for you. Maybe the okinawans were cross trainers. I don't know. Now, if they were, then cross training is a part of karate and integral for application of kata. If that is true, then what I do is as I say it is. Meaning that grappling training is a supplementary exercise similar to weight training to better apply techniques and principles in kata. This may in fact be your definition of cross training. It, however, is not mine. But that's me. If you play basketball on a regular basis and the attributes gained from it, such as increased quickness and vertical leap, assist you in your training and application of fighting techniques you may explain how your cross training in basketball allowed you to to improve your fighting skill and so on. If I play basketball and it improves my physically which in turn improves my fighting skill I will tell you, "I just hoop on the weekends." I will not say I cross train, nor will I consider it cross training. I would do it because I enjoy it and it makes me a better person and that is the way I see things.
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#386370 - 03/13/08 12:46 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Matt, the thing is I don't consider what I do cross training, you do. I guess that is a really big issue for you.




If by "you", you mean "damn near everybody but medulanet", then I agree.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#386371 - 03/13/08 12:49 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: medulanet]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



Matt, the thing is I don't consider what I do cross training, you do. I guess that is a really big issue for you. Maybe the okinawans were cross trainers. I don't know. Now, if they were, then cross training is a part of karate and integral for application of kata. If that is true, then what I do is as I say it is. Meaning that grappling training is a supplementary exercise similar to weight training to better apply techniques and principles in kata. This may in fact be your definition of cross training. It, however, is not mine. But that's me. If you play basketball on a regular basis and the attributes gained from it, such as increased quickness and vertical leap, assist you in your training and application of fighting techniques you may explain how your cross training in basketball allowed you to to improve your fighting skill and so on. If I play basketball and it improves my physically which in turn improves my fighting skill I will tell you, "I just hoop on the weekends." I will not say I cross train, nor will I consider it cross training. I would do it because I enjoy it and it makes me a better person and that is the way I see things.




My thoughts.

If a modern boxer trained for a bout with a grappler, by learning grappling techniques so he would know what the grappler would do , I would call that training to use his art against a grappler.

And returning to the skill set that was once in his art.

I think that is the case with a karate ka.


Jude

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