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#386412 - 03/15/08 10:27 AM Re: Ti time... [Re: Unyu]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Bryan.

I think the original poster of one of the videos you posted
has responded to comments about the video on the Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo thread in the karate section.

Good selection of videos you posted.

Jude

The word posted seems to be used a lot on here"!!"

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#386413 - 03/15/08 12:27 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques *DELETED* [Re: jude33]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

From Shonuff.


The impression I get, and I could be wrong, is less that grappling was a prerequisite of karate training, but rather wrestling was just something everyone did, .



Quote:





All in all things donít add up.




Jude




Pure speculation at this moment in time.
Further thoughts of the moving of karate to be seen as in the main, a striking art.

Seems to be beggining to add up. It wasnt just Funokoshi, There seems to be other heads of karate styles involved. I think that in order to get karate in to the The Dai Nippon Butoku-kai in Japan, which was politically very strong and I am guessing they infleunced education in Okinawa and Japan, they changed it.



They had to adjust karate and not step into competition with the grappling in judo?. Again I am speculating, and keep clear of any Chinese influence.Plus anything else the
The Dai Nippon Butoku-kai in Japan wanted.

So the possablity of the demise of original okinawan grappling and the adjustment of kata. Perhaps certain Okinawans who werent bothered about the The Dai Nippon Butoku-kai in Japan, kept the original arts going?

The culmination of this was different arts with a Japanese name.


Skipping through history we come to
1970.
Enoeda v Kanazawa kumite.On Tv in Japan? Bare knuckle.
Both learned karate and judo at University.

One attempted throw and two successfull throws and a side mount. At this point they stopped? The sport side of Japanese judo stemmed from Japanese jujitsu combined with sport karate derived from Okinawan arts.
Given that techniques are common in a lot of arts then I ponder what would they have used if they only had pure training in Okinawan chinese hand?

So reverse Okinawan chinese hand to what it was and what is there?

That is the task I suppose

Jude

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#386414 - 03/15/08 01:30 PM Re: Ti anyone?! [Re: Unyu]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
The example vids show what is generally considered inclusive of stand-up fighting. stand-up grappling, takedowns/throws, standing/kneeling submissions and take-to-ground finishes I associate with stand-up art.

no one has to agree. just clarifying my opinion.

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#386415 - 03/15/08 06:32 PM Re: Ti anyone?! [Re: Ed_Morris]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Unyu

I agree with Ugh Ed, looks like regular Karate to me. But I do remember a interview with Sensei Hohan Soken which he defined grappling as a part of Okinawan Karate not a seperate part of training but something that was just so.

Probably as we have investigated here part of their culture and childhood - Adult past time, but not included in the passed along Karate cirricullum because it was so common and expected in the supposed pupil.

In Karate there debate is not there is no grappling surlly its standing and kneeling submission and KOs. But that theres no groundfighting/Osaekomiwaza as in Jujitsu or Judo or BJJ.

Still back to Chicken or Egg not the Chicken is the Egg.


Edited by Neko456 (03/15/08 06:41 PM)
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#386416 - 03/15/08 08:25 PM Re: Ti anyone?! [Re: Ed_Morris]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

The example vids show what is generally considered inclusive of stand-up fighting. stand-up grappling, takedowns/throws, standing/kneeling submissions and take-to-ground finishes I associate with stand-up art.




Agreed. Not debating that kind of grappling as part of karate. Practiced those types of things regularly in American kenpo.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#386417 - 03/15/08 08:53 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Zach:

Because someone did not "see"/do said groundwork does that mean it was not there??? Either the ground was much harder on Okinawa than it is in San Francisco, Dallas, Kyoto, etc., etc or perhaps the work was very present if we bothered to look....?

"... hey that's the fifth time I've been thrown by him... wonder how kata would respond to that, neutralize-stop it...~

I cannot open a door, I am not aware of... but it does not mean it is not there!

Jeff

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#386418 - 03/15/08 08:57 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: Ronin1966]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Quote:

Hello Zach:

Because someone did not "see"/do said groundwork does that mean it was not there???




That's how I would take it. What would make one think that it WAS there?
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#386419 - 03/15/08 11:14 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: medulanet]
Unyu Offline
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Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 62
Loc: Where I'm At
You guys who have not done any formal groundfighting training seem to believe that if it's not rolling then it ain't ground technique. Karate groundfighting almost never entails fighting from the guard. Mounted positions where an easy transition to quickly standing is a must. I mean I have numerous examples on video, some of which I posted, that are relevant to the street.

If you watch Raul Perez's video you will see how experience helps one to have more flexibility in options. He is atypical, but not unique in his varied application of Okinawan kata and waza.

Groundfighting as seen in submission grappling is not necessarily conducive to street use. Yet there are ground submissions and positions throughout the kata

Here's some more stuff you guys probably learned in your system too. If you regularly train in a similar manner that's all you need for the street:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=GGX0ISiHyzA
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ylzh-4CbMM4&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=PldCIKrZj0s
http://youtube.com/watch?v=G7hK8_A9swM

How many of you have trained in Judo Newaza or GJJ/BJJ for any significant amount of time? I know for sure most of you never trained under the Kodokan Judo syllabus, because only one person posted regarding the striking (atemi waza) in Judo. if you did you would have used the term "Goshin Jutsu".

Here's some dome munchies, to help those who don't know with the quandry of wrasslin' in karate. Specifically Tegumi and Okinawan Sumo and the contribution these endeavors made to toudi. Peep it:

http://seinenkai.com/art-sumo.html

There are sprawls, lapel/collar chpkesokes, scissor takedowns to a mount or even guard, rear naked chokes, neck cranks and anything that would work expeditiously and with efficacy. Good luck on your voyage.
_________________________
Verily and mayhaps, the morrow beckons, like watchtower beacons, and war does to weapons...

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#386420 - 03/16/08 12:54 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: Unyu]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I don't see the point of showing Karatekas doing regular Karate moves and saying that its groundfighting in the since that we are stating, of course there has always been kneeling finishing techniques and counters to them grappling. But not hold down or rolling techniques as in Wrestling, Pankration, BJJ/Judo, Sambo or Jujitsu. I've studied Judo and some of the others Japanese arts and know the difference. At one point your rarely saw Jujitsu using many hold down or submitting from the ground techniques they would go in for the maiming technique as did Karate.

Theres no debate it exist but not in the Kata system past on in Karate. I never even heard that it was implied as stated above JJ rarely used hold down submisson unless they were taken prisioners otherwise like Karate they took no prisioners.
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#386421 - 03/16/08 07:15 AM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: Neko456]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Hi Neko.

I still have a long way to go in my studies but;

Some things occur to me during study.

I am refering here to all three positions a person could find themsleves in an unarmed self defence situation.
Namely
standing
kneeling
on the ground
(anything between).

Certain strains of okinawan karate was known for having exceptional gripping strength, and using exercises for overall strength.

Near pre-requisite for chin na?
Grip strength.
Certain strains of Okinawan karate were know for limb/
hand conditioning?
Parrels drawn with certain chinese arts

As opposed to or instead of submission holds against a limb.
Striking the joints and the flesh of the limb .

List of techniques that can be used in a self defence situation (or an attacker could use) dependent on how dangerous the situation is.

Gouging
poking
Breaking fingers
(Is it me or do certain grappling moves keep the fingers out of the movement?).
biting
attacking vital spots
twisting flesh
using the ground as a weapon
using things to hand as weapons
headbutting
striking
throwing
submission moves
chokes
have I missed any?

So if karate was trained in the main a self defence then these things would have been catered for. Either party attacker or defender is capable of them



So if its self defence then will the ground game in karate look like the ground game so prevelent in a part of BJJ?.




Were certain pins purely intended for the samuri to finish off the other samuri on the battlefield? Do people naturely adopt a pin position or a variation of it when on the ground?
Getting back to the art of pure wrestling/ randori in judo etc.
Drills so to speak to prepare the person partly for such an encounter. But could some of them leave a person open in a no rule no restriction encounter?
Learn wrestling skills to add to the striking and dirty stuff?.

But adjusted wrestling perhaps?

So I think looking for ground fighting in karate would have to take all in to consideration.

Just my thoughts to date.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/16/08 07:17 AM)

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