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#386342 - 03/12/08 04:09 PM Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Let me start out by saying that there is no ground fighting in karate, okinawans were never trained in any form of grappling that contained chokes, joint locks, or really any form of ground fighting, and there are no such techniques contained within kata.

Now, after getting that out of the way, does anyone feel that any techniques or principles from your karate training you use standing can be still be utilized no matter where the fight is taken? If so what are they are how are they utilized. If not, what happens when the fight is taken there in training? Do you stop fighting and beg for a quick death, continue to fight without any techniques, or do you draw your techniques from other sources?
When I am in a fight that ends up in a range that is traditionally not trained in karate I.....
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#386343 - 03/12/08 04:20 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Bah you are being misleading.

No one has stated that there isn't alot of standing grappling in Karate (would anyone claim this?)....I doubt there are any dojo out there anymore that don't at least teach some variation on osoto gari, and some basic arm locks.

I even find it a reasonable assumption to continue into side control or what have you from alot of takedowns etc, what I think is a little silly is when you get into talking about things like the gaurd (or the passing of it) and claiming it is somehow "in" Naihanchi.

That's what people are debating, not whether or not the skills can or should be used to some degree.

In the end it's turning into a semantic arguemnet Med, I actually think what you are advocating is probably very similar to the way alot of us were trained, it's the suggestion that somehow all these groundfighting techniques are to be "found" in Kata all the sudden that throws people for a loop. This is different than these techniques simply being your interpretation of Kata.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/12/08 04:21 PM)

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#386344 - 03/12/08 04:27 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
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Zach is right on. I have no problem with anyone finding various uses for kata bunkai. I think it's a good mental exercise, and can be fun for those who try it. But that is completely different from trying to say that XYZ technique was historically part of kata training.

Can techiques be used universally? Sure.

Were they used universally? Not before 1991.
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#386345 - 03/12/08 04:35 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: Zach_Zinn]
haze Offline
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Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 106
Loc: Syracuse NY USA
Well, when I look at the Bubishi I see some joint locks, throws, a few ground techniques and some larynx grabs/chokes.

So why would anyone think that throws, locks, chokes or ground work was not in karate?

Maybe we do not see them in Modern karate, that which has been devised in the last 75 yrs or so but I think the whole thing has been watered down since it was altered for the school systems in Okinawa and Japan.


Edited by haze (03/12/08 04:56 PM)
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#386346 - 03/12/08 04:41 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: haze]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
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Quote:

Well, when I look at the Bubishi I see some joint locks, throws, a few ground techniques and some larynx grabs/chokes.

So why would anyone think that throws, locks, chokes or ground work was not in karate?

Maybe we do not see them in Modern karate, that which has been devised in the last 75 yra or so but I think the whole thing has been watered down since it was altered for the school systems in Okinawa and Japan.





You guys keep missing the subtle distinction between "there is simple groundfighting in Karate" and "Naihanchi Kata shows you how to pass the gaurd".

There are some very simple throws in the bubishi, I remember tomoe-nage and ura-nage off hand, I don't remember anyhting in there about actual ground grappling, can you point it out? I've only read the McCarthy translation.

And for the last time no one has said there isn't grappling in karate, and i'm guessing almost no one would alot of us have said there was no dedicated groundfighting in it prior to the era of the UFC.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/12/08 04:44 PM)

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#386347 - 03/12/08 05:02 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: Zach_Zinn]
haze Offline
Dragon

Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 106
Loc: Syracuse NY USA
Zach,

Sorry, I should have clarified the ground techniques. These are shown being done from the ground on a standing opponent.
(I'm not talking BJJ stuff)

Basicly throws/takedowns from the ground

One may be reffered to as a scissor take down, and then a sacrifice throw where you go down on your back and throw opponent over the top of you using feet.
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#386348 - 03/12/08 05:02 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: MattJ]
oldman Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Okinawans learned grappling from the Koreans practicing ancient Korean wrestling known as SSIRIUM. They changed the name to Tegumi...then they took it out of the poomse and put it in the kata. It's all there in the Tul.

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#386349 - 03/12/08 05:24 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Were they used universally? Not before 1991.




Matt, what exactly happened in 1991?
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#386350 - 03/12/08 05:29 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

You guys keep missing the subtle distinction between "there is simple groundfighting in Karate" and "Naihanchi Kata shows you how to pass the gaurd".





Yeah, that's kind of weird Zach, who said that? Why would someone other than a mugger attacker want to pass someone's guard on the street? Let's not confuse self/life preservation strategy with sport. But now lets assume that YOU are the one on the bottom. What about ways to get up?
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#386351 - 03/12/08 05:56 PM Re: Universal Usage of Okinawan Karate Techniques [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


Yeah, that's kind of weird Zach, who said that? Why would someone other than a mugger attacker want to pass someone's guard on the street? Let's not confuse self/life preservation strategy with sport. But now lets assume that YOU are the one on the bottom. What about ways to get up?




Heh while it was intended as semi- tongue in cheek, that was kind of silly of me to phrase it that way.

It wasn't you obviously, but I remember many moons ago being shown a guard passing drill and some other groundwork and being told it was part of Naihanchi. Coincidentally, this was in the 90's;)

Hey I fully agree that those things should be taught, especially how to get up! I just don't agree neccessarily that they are explicitly part of most Kata.

I also think that for most people crosstraining is probably required unless they are lucky enough to have a teacher who is also proficient in a grappling art (hey, like you).

Whether or not this stuff is part of Karate, it seems to be the case that generally one needs some exposure to a dedicated grappling art to learn it.

Maybe this will be less true in time, since now people corsstraining and integrating stuff is much more common.

You yourself admitted that your wrestling background has merged with your Karate, do you think someone else trained in a comparable manner only in Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu would have the kind of grappling knowledge or ability to teach these things?


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/12/08 06:08 PM)

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