FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 44 Guests and 5 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
old1, Leonar, ManLar, Vimido, raya
22925 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
futsaowingchun 3
Ronin1966 3
GojuRyuboy13 2
AndyLA 1
Victor Smith 1
October
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30 31
New Topics
The Classic Pak Sao drill
by futsaowingchun
10/20/14 10:32 AM
wing chun kicks and knees
by futsaowingchun
10/09/14 12:55 AM
2014 European Championships Juniors: the Gallery
by ergees
10/05/14 10:56 AM
Tan,Bong,Fuk & Wu Sao
by futsaowingchun
09/30/14 12:10 AM
Living a full life violence free...
by GojuRyuboy13
09/25/14 08:50 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Leo's Judo Journal
by Leo_E_49
01/24/12 02:58 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by
05/13/07 08:02 AM
Recent Posts
Living a full life violence free...
by GojuRyuboy13
10/22/14 07:20 AM
The Classic Pak Sao drill
by futsaowingchun
10/20/14 10:32 AM
Leo's Judo Journal
by swordy
10/11/14 09:21 AM
The Karate punch
by Ronin1966
10/09/14 03:16 PM
wing chun kicks and knees
by futsaowingchun
10/09/14 12:55 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Ronin1966
10/08/14 09:22 PM
2014 European Championships Juniors: the Gallery
by ergees
10/05/14 10:56 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by AndyLA
10/04/14 10:20 AM
Tan,Bong,Fuk & Wu Sao
by futsaowingchun
09/30/14 12:10 AM
Forum Stats
22925 Members
36 Forums
35582 Topics
432510 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 11 1 2 3 ... 10 11 >
Topic Options
#386025 - 03/11/08 03:02 AM Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Bascially a flow drill for the whole kata.

I learned the standard one's for Gekiha (don't do this one much anymore), Gekisai, we are now messing around with the Saifa one (I believe it was created by Seikichi Toguchi), and a Seisan drill of my teacher's. I've also seen a very nice one for Sepai my teacher created
(that's Sepia for Jude), but we don't actively practice that one yet, just "pieces" from the kata.

What do you guys think are the possible plusses and minuses of this kind of training?

Most people seem to equate it to yakusoku kumite (had a discussion on e-budo about it not to long ago), and their opinions good or bad seem to to stem from this.

For my own part i've found this kind of training to be extremely valuable as long as you keep mixing it up, changing the dynamics etc, alot of the time i've found students seem to get the most out of it if I take one to three movements from the drill, and focus on those in a more intense manner.

Here's some examples of this kind of training:

Koryu Uchinadi I think:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9-OlSjoJ4M

The standard Gekisai one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLG2YpNerYs

Never seen this one before, seems unique:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQeltFd_EKI

A Gekisai ground drill ( Ain't no wrasslin' in Krotty!!):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-l0lGbn4ks

One common theme in the discussion on the other forum which came up is that this kind of training decreases in value as skill increases, and that once one passes a point training in such a way might actually be detrimental.

Not sure if I agree fully, but I do think that in some ways the argument has merit.

As we train our skills should become less cookie cutter, and clearly we should be capable of thinking outside the box, even in terms of non-sparring drills. Also i should mention at least in my training the context of these drills was sort of as a "surface bunkai" that you can practice with a partner, i.e. the simple version of what could be in the kata.

Obviously this kind of thing is never a substitute for the more resistant practice, and arguably it has it's pitfalls.

So what is your opinion on this method of training?


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/11/08 03:32 AM)

Top
#386026 - 03/11/08 04:43 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
My student thoughts

Quote:



Koryu Uchinadi I think:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9-OlSjoJ4M






Interesting intepretation for modern use.


Quote:


A Gekisai ground drill ( Ain't no wrasslin' in Krotty!!):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-l0lGbn4ks





Looks to my student eye the use of one of the principles of white crane at the beggining.
The same might have been achieved with trapping skills.
I think years gone by Naihanchi might have also have been practiced at some along with those techniques from the original kata they stemmed from.
I think some of the escapes were in there.
I Like it. Thought according to some there were no ground grappling in kata?


The drills you practice Do any of them involve the development of trapping skills and/or the complete use of all the techniques/principles for that specific kata?

I would realy like to see the drills you practice for them and for sepai, including use of hikite. If you have a mind to post them sometime. Do you achieve hikite through trapping or the white crane principle shown in the grappling video?

After it has been pointed out to me ,I am in agreement with Ed. The thought about the demise of trapping skills.
Because it is considered holding in competition sparring and is illegal.
I dont train for competition orientated karate . I think you might.

Jude




Edited by jude33 (03/11/08 05:14 AM)

Top
#386027 - 03/11/08 06:21 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Zach_Zinn]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
I think much karate, ie the general modern movement towards sport has seen a real downward spiral in 'drill' training.

and a real increase in 1 step, 2 step and even 3 step 'fixed' sparring, often to get the next grade along with the relevant kata for a grade. often at semi contact/full contact strike range as well.

So all of those links I feel are really posative, they have different strengths and weakneses for sure, but then again they are not the only thing practised within the respective arts, im sure of that.

Couple of comments, I don't see much merit outside of real early training/demos in marching through a whole kata with a partner in a real 'fixed' way, against karate like attacks - many disagree with me but it is not a practice I bother with, prefering to isolate aspects of the kata and work them against common methods of assault.

the ground grappling one, come on that wasn't ground grappling that was compliant close work that ended up on the floor for a little bit - nice drill by the way but thats not grappling 'proper', by a long shot.

I do appluad to a point all of the methods shown, I may work slightly different (in fact much simpler) but I do see real value in these methods over the more Traditional Japanese Ippon Kumite's etc etc.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

Top
#386028 - 03/11/08 06:40 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: shoshinkan]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Hey Zach...you've managed to find the...one...video of our dojo/sensei on the internet! LOL!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLG2YpNerYs

I can't stand this 'drill'. Haven't 'moved up' to what you call 'flow drills' for advanced kata yet...but am finding the one for Kakuha/o (sp?) enjoyable.

I don't spar...so this kind of drill is really the closest I get to 'resistant' training...outside of bunkai. So, as a beginner, of course my vote is a 'thumbs up for this kind of drill.

Top
#386029 - 03/11/08 07:14 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: harlan]
harleyt26 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 75
Loc: Summerfield,Florida U.S.A.
Hi Harlan,I had not seen the video before,very cool.First thing I was reminded of was Kimo sensei saying"just do the kata,you do know this kata don't you".
Tom Hodges
_________________________
Thomas Hodges, train 100 practice 1000

Top
#386030 - 03/11/08 07:42 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

A Gekisai ground drill ( Ain't no wrasslin' in Krotty!!):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-l0lGbn4ks




thats a first: pre-arrainged ground grappling?

I look at these drills and the examples above as mostly for demonstration. Although they can help to build some fundamental skills, timing, distance, flow, etc. but (I believe) if worked on exclusively, they create more bad habits than good ones.

I guess my verdict is that they are disposable past basics unless you plan to teach them as supplimentary to early-on learning....in which case you keep them, in order to pass it on.

Top
#386031 - 03/11/08 07:51 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: harleyt26]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Have you been spying??? I hear this every week. 'Just do the kata.'

Quote:

Hi Harlan,I had not seen the video before,very cool.First thing I was reminded of was Kimo sensei saying"just do the kata,you do know this kata don't you".
Tom Hodges




But seriously...question for Ed...if you think this is a disposable 'basic' exercise...what is your replacement for it? Sparring? Free form drills?


Edited by harlan (03/11/08 07:57 AM)

Top
#386032 - 03/11/08 07:58 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: harlan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
by disposable, I mean: 'go over it a little while, then move on to something else and dont look back'

Top
#386033 - 03/11/08 08:07 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Ed_Morris]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
specifics? what would you replace it with?

Top
#386034 - 03/11/08 09:02 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: harlan]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

specifics? what would you replace it with?




Not wishing to answer for Ed, but I think ,
hopefully if Zach posts their methods they might have some
of the answers. Hope they include Sepai.


Waiting in ernest.

Still like the ground drill though. As purely a practice drill that is.

Ed.

Quote:

by disposable, I mean: 'go over it a little while, then move on to something else and dont look back'



As a student I refrained from making simular comments.
I think if I had stated that it would have ended up a mile long of bickering again. My attempts at mushin would have become mushin. The drills in a way reminded me of very early wado training. Had a purpose then but not much good now.

Jude



Edited by jude33 (03/11/08 09:16 AM)

Top
#386035 - 03/11/08 09:12 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: harlan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
not as a replacement, but these drills along with one-step kumite-like drills can be used as a stepping stone towards drills with increasingly less pre-arraingement. I only meant that if someone has no intention of passing these long prearrainged sets on, then they can 'get and forget' and move on without missing out.


long pre-arrainged sets seem more demonstrational than as learning material to me. The danger of only doing these indefinitely, would be recalling what you remember comes next as oppossed to reacting to what the opponent is doing.

freesparring also has it's limitations, since delivering a palm strike, forearm or elbow for instance with any kind of force would comprimise safety. But structured sparring can get the striking, guarding, grappling and takedown aspects reasonably safe....without having to rely on pre-arraingement as the built-in safety mechanism.

Top
#386036 - 03/11/08 11:16 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Ed_Morris]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Quote:

A Gekisai ground drill ( Ain't no wrasslin' in Krotty!!):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-l0lGbn4ks




thats a first: pre-arrainged ground grappling?

I look at these drills and the examples above as mostly for demonstration. Although they can help to build some fundamental skills, timing, distance, flow, etc. but (I believe) if worked on exclusively, they create more bad habits than good ones.

I guess my verdict is that they are disposable past basics unless you plan to teach them as supplimentary to early-on learning....in which case you keep them, in order to pass it on.




This was the basic consensus on e-budo as well.

I think that like any drill they have their strengths and weaknesses, definitely in my own training they were used up to a point, and later on we were moved to more "open" drills.

The other thing to keep in mind about these is that you can do whatever you want with them (if you are using them as a teaching tool), they aren't set in stone, so as students advance you can always throw them for a loop.

Anyway for the (relatively short) time i've been running a class i've found these to be great for instilling good fundamentals and getting people prepared for things that might involve more chaotic contact. They are also a good "intro to bunkai" course possibly. Time will tell I guess in terms of possible bad habits they create lol.

I have no comment really about the ground grappling drill, I just threw it in there because it looked interesting.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/11/08 11:17 AM)

Top
#386037 - 03/11/08 01:41 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
I once read a book about a student of Shinkage ryu kenjutsu. He stated that all kata were practiced solo and in partnership but that as he progressed sensei would deviate from the pre-arranged sequence and then come back into it smoothly and he would be able to follow?

Perhaps the teacher mearly snipped in sequences remembered from other kata, or perhaps the style constituted a few set responses which allowed for such deviation, or perhaps the guy was just that good???

Does anyone know of someone who is the product of these kind of drills alone? I have a feeling that if an appropriately graduated series of drills were crafted for a small enuogh system they may prove quite useful as a path of developing certain responses.
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

Top
#386038 - 03/11/08 01:44 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I believe pre-arrange sparring has its purpose it corridinates moves and counters to whats going in the kata. It shows the real fighting range of real fights sometimes, so its not jump in (from kicking range head low can't see the opponent) score a point and jump back parading around. It's hurt the guy finish him if he can't counter. Its hard to see this purpose with no one being awarded anything.

But it does serve a purpose I felt it when you start continous sparring were you stay in on the guy until takedown/sweep ect...

Its a way of sharping your reflexes and thinking one step ahead counters other then the ones that taught because if you try them against a dojomate he already knows the counter.

By the way the grappling Bunkia was not of Gakisai ichi it might be of Seuichin and Sepia or Sanseri but not Gakisai sho is more angles and cannon punching.

As mentioned its a good building block for eventually full range free sparring at least you will be slightly comfortable with in-coming at that range.


Edited by Neko456 (03/11/08 01:52 PM)

Top
#386039 - 03/11/08 02:07 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Neko456]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

By the way the grappling Bunkia was not of Gakisai ichi it might be of Seuichin and Sepia or Sanseri but not Gakisai sho is more angles and cannon punching.



Thanks for murdering the terms.

bunkai
Gekisai
Seiunchin
Sepai
Sanseiru

although the useful part when people insist on guessing and not learning the spelling of terms, is that their posts won't come up in searches on the subject. sortof a natural selection filter.

Top
#386040 - 03/11/08 02:42 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Quote:

A Gekisai ground drill ( Ain't no wrasslin' in Krotty!!):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-l0lGbn4ks




thats a first: pre-arrainged ground grappling?

I look at these drills and the examples above as mostly for demonstration. Although they can help to build some fundamental skills, timing, distance, flow, etc. but (I believe) if worked on exclusively, they create more bad habits than good ones.

I guess my verdict is that they are disposable past basics unless you plan to teach them as supplimentary to early-on learning....in which case you keep them, in order to pass it on.




Actually Ed, drills are a very important part of grappling training, just like they are in striking training. In addition, I have seen similar BJJ grappling demos that were prearranged. I think the main problem with this demo as opposed to some of the BJJ demos I have seen is this one has obviously never been pressure tested against a skilled grappler. I think it would look very different if it had. This demo is based on theory rather than acutal realistic practice. Where as BJJ demos are the other way around. They are based on practice and an understanding of what works rather than what they think might work.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

Top
#386041 - 03/11/08 03:20 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-l0lGbn4ks





Very similar to technique practice in American Kenpo, or flow drills in JKD.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#386042 - 03/11/08 03:50 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
I think really this kind of training is best the more you muss' it up and vary it in terms of intenstiy, intent etc.

Obviously it's bad if you end up just being robotic, and I have noticed that can happen if people get too fixated on the pattern aspect of the drills.

If I ever get un-lazy enough I'll get some kind of camera and possibly post a drill we do.

If anyone has seen it, the Saifa drill in Okinawan Goju Ryu II by Seikichi Toguchi is the one we've been working lately, it is a pretty cool drill, but looks silly in the book because the guys are just posing rather than doing the drill.

It is very different from the other application i've learned from Saifa, but it is still a cool drill.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/11/08 03:55 PM)

Top
#386043 - 03/12/08 04:21 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:




If I ever get un-lazy enough I'll get some kind of camera and possibly post a drill we do.






I hope that might be soon,
Video would be perhaps better.


Jude

Top
#386044 - 03/12/08 11:01 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: jude33]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Jude, all I can see in your posts is ***you are ignoring this user***. Take the hint and talk to someone else lol.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/12/08 11:02 AM)

Top
#386045 - 03/12/08 11:33 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: medulanet]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Zach-Zin I don't think he is ignoring you but Shotokan usually don't have standard Bunkais as in two man explaination of a kata, they do have one-two-three steps kumite for incidents. But that usually only testing a responce to these 1-2-3 strike attacks with an obvious offense start and defensive counter situation, not a flow within each counter. Mid to Long range assaults.


I question if the drills should be pressure tested to the point that it changes the flow of the drill too much, before the lessons learned w/o that how do you know how to apply it? Obvious once the drill has been learned its good for the Advance to alternate the sequence by introducing changes. But know the drill 1st anybody that train at home should adjust for changes once its learnt. And I'm sure thats where you are with this question.

Judo, Aikido and Jujitsu has two men throws that are required as you progress the purpose is to have develope effortless throws, locks, chokes and groundwork. Taking whats given. As you advance any measure to break the resistance is used even my what I like knee/kick to the grions r knee (pending the damage and position you want) to throw/lock/choke/strike.

We start with a flow lock from finger to shoulder, throw, then choke drills starting at 4th kyu - until, one of the purpose is of course if you teach a LEF or Security personnel you don't want them to beats someone down (but you teach strike within) the detainment procedure if need be. But it also introduce so that the students get an understanding of standing grappling/detainment. The purpose is to feel the resistance and flow into the next move.

The basic dojo bunkais teaches the flow of the kata, standing in range, flowing and exchanging, and the techniques applied within the kata movements. It is just a training/teaching method. There are other ways to teach the same lesson.


Edited by Neko456 (03/12/08 11:49 AM)
_________________________
DBAckerson

Top
#386046 - 03/12/08 01:05 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Neko456]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Zach-Zin I don't think he is ignoring you but Shotokan usually don't have standard Bunkais as in two man explaination of a kata, they do have one-two-three steps kumite for incidents. But that usually only testing a responce to these 1-2-3 strike attacks with an obvious offense start and defensive counter situation, not a flow within each counter. Mid to Long range assaults.







Hi Neko. I think its the other way around. Because I wouldnt tell him where hiki-te was in sepai he has used his ignore the user option.

Never mind. Not realy bothered.

I think after one year of sepai study, one of the things that comes to my mind is ;
One of the problems I find in analyzing kata might be that the skills that were used such as trapping etc dont seem to be used any more.

Or maybe a better way of putting it, I dont see many people using them. If the goal is competiton katate there is no point.

So have you or others on here covered such things as trapping drills taken from kata ?

Or perhaps trapping, like groundfighting/ wrestling was learned from an outside scource?

Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/12/08 01:08 PM)

Top
#386047 - 03/12/08 03:14 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Zach_Zinn]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Bascially a flow drill for the whole kata.

I learned the standard one's for Gekiha (don't do this one much anymore), Gekisai, we are now messing around with the Saifa one (I believe it was created by Seikichi Toguchi), and a Seisan drill of my teacher's. I've also seen a very nice one for Sepai my teacher created
(that's Sepia for Jude), but we don't actively practice that one yet, just "pieces" from the kata.

What do you guys think are the possible plusses and minuses of this kind of training?

Most people seem to equate it to yakusoku kumite (had a discussion on e-budo about it not to long ago), and their opinions good or bad seem to to stem from this.

For my own part i've found this kind of training to be extremely valuable as long as you keep mixing it up, changing the dynamics etc, alot of the time i've found students seem to get the most out of it if I take one to three movements from the drill, and focus on those in a more intense manner.

Here's some examples of this kind of training:

Koryu Uchinadi I think:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9-OlSjoJ4M

The standard Gekisai one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLG2YpNerYs

Never seen this one before, seems unique:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQeltFd_EKI

A Gekisai ground drill ( Ain't no wrasslin' in Krotty!!):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-l0lGbn4ks

One common theme in the discussion on the other forum which came up is that this kind of training decreases in value as skill increases, and that once one passes a point training in such a way might actually be detrimental.

Not sure if I agree fully, but I do think that in some ways the argument has merit.

As we train our skills should become less cookie cutter, and clearly we should be capable of thinking outside the box, even in terms of non-sparring drills. Also i should mention at least in my training the context of these drills was sort of as a "surface bunkai" that you can practice with a partner, i.e. the simple version of what could be in the kata.

Obviously this kind of thing is never a substitute for the more resistant practice, and arguably it has it's pitfalls.

So what is your opinion on this method of training?




I really don't believe the whole kata is meant to "flow" together in terms of self defense. How many times to you have to maim or kill someone?

That line of thinking fits well within the realm of multiple attackers from different directions,whhich is just bunk.

That method of training is counterproductive in my opinion.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#386048 - 03/12/08 03:57 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: BrianS]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


I really don't believe the whole kata is meant to "flow" together in terms of self defense. How many times to you have to maim or kill someone?




I actually agreed with your sentiments when I first switched to training in Goju, now i'm not so sure, and believe it or not I've found these to be more useful than one would think.

What the Kata is "meant" to do is always a subject of debate, there is a school of thought that says that the Kata actually came from 2 man drills, whether they were pieces strung together or one long sequence I am sure no one knows.

To be clear, most Dojo I have seen (and certainly this is the case with my training) seem to teach shorter, more "direct" application as one advances in level, those are seperate from this kind of training, and more related to self defense, speaking strictly from my own experience.

The purpose of these drills isn't exactly directly related so "self defense"....they are supplementary excercises like alot of drills, something like Kote-Kitae (sp?) or Kakie doesn't relate directly to self defense either, but they have some uses. At any rate, these are distinctly different IMO than what I learned in terms of direct application.

Quote:


That line of thinking fits well within the realm of multiple attackers from different directions,whhich is just bunk.




Lol it has nothing to do with multiple attackers or any such thing, the purpose of doing a long string is to develop the ability to flow from attack to attack. These are not being presented as a "realistic" attack and defense anymore than those flow drills in stickfighting arts are meant to simulate a real fight, that is not the purpose.

Having been exposed to a few different "flavors" of this kind of drill, I do feel there are some that get so complex as to be counterproductive, and the fact is that as you say, the ultimate goal is to end a confrontation quickly.

Oddly, the ones that seem the best to me are the ones where there is not attack-counter attack going on, but rather you are just laying into in Uke as he tries to throw punches and do some basic actions.

I feel that as a supplement to other things they are great. And honestly I think they are miles above alot of the -stand in zenkutsu dachi then attack-"ippon kumite" style stuff.

Anyway thanks for the input guys, it's interesting to see other people's opinions on this.

On the subject, anyone have videos of something to compare and contrast?

Maybe some Shorin ryu yakusoku sets or something.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/12/08 04:08 PM)

Top
#386049 - 03/12/08 10:35 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Quote:


I really don't believe the whole kata is meant to "flow" together in terms of self defense. How many times to you have to maim or kill someone?





I feel that as a supplement to other things they are great. And honestly I think they are miles above alot of the -stand in zenkutsu dachi then attack-"ippon kumite" style stuff.



That is easy to state.
So do we get to see your training methods then?

Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/12/08 10:36 PM)

Top
#386050 - 03/13/08 01:05 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: jude33]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Dear sir: I have you on ignore, meaning I used the ignore function to block your posts.

I'm not going to respond to anything you say because I can't read it!

Go troll someone or somewhere else, you are wasting your time with me since I can no longer see what you write.

Cordially yours,

Non-white crane knowin', non-krotty wrasslin lovin, non-hikite understanding, non spelling Sepai wrong Zach.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/13/08 01:33 AM)

Top
#386051 - 03/13/08 04:32 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Thats fine by me.

Keep learning Zach.

No point in me competing with someone so highly trained in sports karate.

Childish but never mind.

I think the next communication might be when you post your teaching video.
Otherwise no point.

Jude

Top
#386052 - 03/13/08 08:17 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: jude33]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Quote:

Quote:

Zach-Zin I don't think he is ignoring you but Shotokan usually don't have standard Bunkais as in two man explaination of a kata, they do have one-two-three steps kumite for incidents. But that usually only testing a responce to these 1-2-3 strike attacks with an obvious offense start and defensive counter situation, not a flow within each counter. Mid to Long range assaults.







Hi Neko. I think its the other way around. Because I wouldnt tell him where hiki-te was in sepai he has used his ignore the user option.

Never mind. Not realy bothered.

I think after one year of sepai study, one of the things that comes to my mind is ;
One of the problems I find in analyzing kata might be that the skills that were used such as trapping etc dont seem to be used any more.

Or maybe a better way of putting it, I dont see many people using them. If the goal is competiton katate there is no point.

So have you or others on here covered such things as trapping drills taken from kata ?

Or perhaps trapping, like groundfighting/ wrestling was learned from an outside scource?

Jude




Kata are full of trapping/grappling/disbalancing/throwing/takedowns/locking/... etc as support to the ultimate end. Hit the opponents lights out or throw him so that he lands on his head first.
Almost any application I have learned from kata, transformed into yakusoku kumite will end in a strike or kick take out the opponent.
Locking/trapping/breaking... is imo not a goal on itself in karate.
However there are some cases where only a throw or braking technique was learned from a kata technique without a finishing strike or kick. It was considered that the technique was in itself enough to end the conflict.

But not all drills have the purpose to learn how to take out an opponent. Some yakusoku kumite have other goals like endurance training or learning how to execute a certain technique. These are usually not directly from kata application but support karate training.
Their goal is not SD but technical.

Top
#386053 - 03/13/08 10:45 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: CVV]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539


Quote:



Hi Neko. I think its the other way around. Because I wouldnt tell him where hiki-te was in sepai he has used his ignore the user option.

Never mind. Not realy bothered.

I think after one year of sepai study, one of the things that comes to my mind is ;
One of the problems I find in analyzing kata might be that the skills that were used such as trapping etc dont seem to be used any more.

Or maybe a better way of putting it, I dont see many people using them. If the goal is competiton katate there is no point.

So have you or others on here covered such things as trapping drills taken from kata ?

Or perhaps trapping, like groundfighting/ wrestling was learned from an outside scource?

Jude




Kata are full of trapping/grappling/disbalancing/throwing/takedowns/locking/... etc as support to the ultimate end. Hit the opponents lights out or throw him so that he lands on his head first.
Almost any application I have learned from kata, transformed into yakusoku kumite will end in a strike or kick take out the opponent.
Locking/trapping/breaking... is imo not a goal on itself in karate.
However there are some cases where only a throw or braking technique was learned from a kata technique without a finishing strike or kick. It was considered that the technique was in itself enough to end the conflict.

Their goal is not SD but technical.




Hi CVV.
Yes that was my assumption. At the moment I have been looking for some correctly thought out trapping/ disbalancing drills using the core kata.
It is something I will at some time drill. And I think as you so correctly stated although it is a drill, it is to help to reach the end goal.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/13/08 10:47 AM)

Top
#386054 - 03/14/08 12:01 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: jude33]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Quote:



Quote:



Hi Neko. I think its the other way around. Because I wouldnt tell him where hiki-te was in sepai he has used his ignore the user option.

Never mind. Not realy bothered.

I think after one year of sepai study, one of the things that comes to my mind is ;
One of the problems I find in analyzing kata might be that the skills that were used such as trapping etc dont seem to be used any more.

Or maybe a better way of putting it, I dont see many people using them. If the goal is competiton katate there is no point.

So have you or others on here covered such things as trapping drills taken from kata ?

Or perhaps trapping, like groundfighting/ wrestling was learned from an outside scource?

Jude




Kata are full of trapping/grappling/disbalancing/throwing/takedowns/locking/... etc as support to the ultimate end. Hit the opponents lights out or throw him so that he lands on his head first.
Almost any application I have learned from kata, transformed into yakusoku kumite will end in a strike or kick take out the opponent.
Locking/trapping/breaking... is imo not a goal on itself in karate.
However there are some cases where only a throw or braking technique was learned from a kata technique without a finishing strike or kick. It was considered that the technique was in itself enough to end the conflict.

Their goal is not SD but technical.




Hi CVV.
Yes that was my assumption. At the moment I have been looking for some correctly thought out trapping/ disbalancing drills using the core kata.
It is something I will at some time drill. And I think as you so correctly stated although it is a drill, it is to help to reach the end goal.

Jude




Agree the idea is to teach the lesson in the kata, not product a fight scene. The movement is like fighting another skilled fighter there's going to be some exchanges. Relating this feeling to dojo encounters you stay on them until you break there defense. It's is more like Jude33 mentioned its a technical lesson not a rehearsed fight.

B.S stated that the training is counter productive...

Each to there own, might be that Goju-kia nor USA Goju train them, if we all thought alike there be no reason for a forum like this. Learning has a lot to do with admitting you didn't know. By the way I know I can't spell when I'm speed typing, without my spellchecker. But you got be mean some thing to me, for me to use that.

By the way Jude33 there are others that enjoy your Threads and replies. Me included. Keep pluging away that two down and hundreds to go. I don't see why they find you so irritable is this a trait of yours? You gotta be good at somethings Karate and getting on people ig list, thanks for Joining me.
_________________________
DBAckerson

Top
#386055 - 03/14/08 12:17 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Neko456]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

[By the way Jude33 there are others that enjoy your Threads and replies. Me included. Keep pluging away that two down and hundreds to go. I don't see why they find you so irritable is this a trait of yours? You gotta be good at somethings Karate and getting on people ig list, thanks for Joining me.




Hi Neko.

Its good that you are on this forum. I always read your input as well as others.

Not sure why I can irritate some people.
I do my own research then post and get answers from other members of the forum.

I suppose its all about discussion and sometimes peoples
emotions get involved.

Doesnt bother me to much.

Humans are humans

Jude

Top
#386056 - 03/14/08 12:43 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: jude33]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Jude, as far as karate's trapping and unbalancing methods they are pretty simple. They use either neck ties, over hooks, or underhooks. As far as unbalancing this usually follows distraction and involves leg techniques usually foot sweeps and borrowing balance on a distracted (usually by pain) or semi unconscious opponent/attacker.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

Top
#386057 - 03/14/08 01:31 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: medulanet]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Thanks medulant.

Jude

Top
#386058 - 03/14/08 03:33 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: jude33]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Hi Neko.


Not sure why I can irritate some people.
I do my own research then post and get answers from other members of the forum. I suppose its all about discussion and sometimes peoples emotions get involved.
Doesn't bother me to much. Humans are humans

Jude




Hell thats the way it should be. Your's idea against their Idea. What you think you know vs. what they think they know. Your expereinces vs. their expereinces. Just theses elements make it near impossible to totally agree on everything especially on a topic as Vast as fighting or using Karate to do it.

It doesn't bother you much, The path of least resistance, until they want to debate theories. I've enjoy listening, responding and LEARNING from this vast and different Knowledge-base that U are a part of.



Edited by Neko456 (03/14/08 03:35 PM)

Top
#386059 - 03/14/08 04:36 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Neko456]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


Hell thats the way it should be. Your's idea against their Idea. What you think you know vs. what they think they know. Your expereinces vs. their expereinces. Just theses elements make it near impossible to totally agree on everything especially on a topic as Vast as fighting or using Karate to do it.





Yeah that all works great when people actually form logical arguments about things, and cite their references for odd, incongrous blanket statements.

Sometimes they don't though, or they seem to argue just for the sake of arguing (again with little coherence in their argument or presentation), that kind of thing tends to annoy people.

Often the same people even start resorting to ad hominem attacks every single time you ask them to qualify a statement they've made.

Sometimes these same folks will rail on and on about all the things that might be wrong with your karate or training background, while they don't even have a profile filled out, and are generally secretive about their own training.

I'm fine with debate, but when people consistently show the behavior patterns mentioned above, I don't really consider them worth talking with, and further I will go as far as to say such behavior is that of a classic internet troll.

Just my opinion obviously, but since you saw fit to discuss it in the thread about renzoku/bunkai drills, I figured i'd add my 2 cents.

Back to your regularly scheduled discussion.

Top
#386060 - 03/14/08 06:42 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Jude, as far as karate's trapping and unbalancing methods they are pretty simple. They use either neck ties, over hooks, or underhooks. As far as unbalancing this usually follows distraction and involves leg techniques usually foot sweeps and borrowing balance on a distracted (usually by pain) or semi unconscious opponent/attacker.




Alright! Karate now has overhooks and underhooks!! Sweet.....
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#386061 - 03/14/08 09:35 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: jude33]
ndj Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 8
Loc: Perth, Western Australia
Quote:

A Gekisai ground drill ( Ain't no wrasslin' in Krotty!!):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-l0lGbn4ks




I am the Chief Instructor of the organization whose Gekisai ground fighting video is mentioned in this thread. Some good comments, but a few posters misunderstand the purpose of the drill.

(1) Yes, the purpose is to learn basics and then move on (re: comments about "disposable drill" etc.). It's gekisai, for crying out aloud, not exactly the most advanced kata in the world!

(2) As for the person who talked about "pressure tested" - he's not only wrong (ie. it has been tested against the likes of seasoned BJJ grapplers), but he is misconceived: the idea is to isolate locks and flow from one to another in a logical sequence (for the purposes of learning) - not to simulate combat. It's still a drill, and a basic one at that. On the other hand, as the kata become more advanced so do the tuide (karate grappling methods). As it happens they then resemble combat more and more - eg. our saifa ground tuide on youtube (you'll find it by clicking on our profile in youtube). Perhaps those who criticised our drill started learning to read and write by jumping into Macbeth? Good for them then.

(3) As for those people who don't understand the purpose of flow drills generally - you need to get out of your comfort zones more.

(4) Someone mentioned white crane (correct - our tuide/qin-na is partly white crane derived as it happens) and also compared our drill to JKD / American kempo (fair enough - they are innovators, as are we).

btw- those who say "Ain't no wrasslin' in Krotty!!" - don't tell Higaonna Sensei of Okinawan Goju Ryu! He'll enjoy putting you in quite a bit of pain while proving you wrong!


Edited by ndj (03/14/08 09:57 PM)

Top
#386062 - 03/14/08 09:50 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: ndj]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
welcome ndj, good to have you here.

have you had any communication with Nathan Johnson Sensei (Kodo Ryu) in the UK? if not from the video I have seen of your group you should consider it as I think you guys would have alot to share.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

Top
#386063 - 03/14/08 09:52 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: ndj]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Welcome to the forum, Nenad sensei. I appreciate your response to my email, and invite, to comment on the thread.

Top
#386064 - 03/14/08 10:25 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: ndj]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Always good to have authors of video have their say - it really does help in giving a clip more context. anyway I was the one who you referenced in your list as item (1).

fair enough it's a basics drill, and basics get you on to increasingly fun material. What my point was the drill looked more as a pre-arrainged demonstration. both training partners knew their role and predetermined responses, is that true? If not, then my assumption was wrong and my point mute.

thanks for taking the time. also, are you sticking around for a bit? I have one more question

Top
#386065 - 03/14/08 11:15 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

say such behavior is that of a classic internet troll.



Back to your regularly scheduled discussion.



Zach,
I am not realy interested in any petty arguments.
I cant see the relevence of bringing up that discussion again.
If you would like to know where hikite is in Sepia? Then again might I suggest you study it .
As I did.
From my point of view a person can either
keep their emotions in check
or avoid communication.


Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/14/08 11:46 PM)

Top
#386066 - 03/14/08 11:28 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: ndj]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



(4) Someone mentioned white crane (correct - our tuide/qin-na is partly white crane derived as it happens) and also compared our drill to JKD / American kempo (fair enough - they are innovators, as are we).





Hi.

That was me who mentioned white crane. I have been studying the connection between karate, white crane and other Chinese arts.Can I ask how do you see the connection?

It is pure theory study I have been doing in white crane,

Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/14/08 11:41 PM)

Top
#386067 - 03/15/08 12:47 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Ed_Morris]
ndj Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 8
Loc: Perth, Western Australia
Quote:

What my point was the drill looked more as a pre-arrainged demonstration. both training partners knew their role and predetermined responses, is that true?



Yes, it was a pre-arranged demo. Having said that, the drill is a 'lock flow' - the person placed in the lock escapes from the lock via the line of least resistance and thus via the most obvious route, whereupon the defender flows straight into another lock. Hence it is not so much a predetermined response so much as the most likely response.

A good martial artist needs to prepare for a 'what if' situation - and that is what the drill teaches.
_________________________
www.traditionalfightingarts.com

Top
#386068 - 03/15/08 12:51 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: jude33]
ndj Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 8
Loc: Perth, Western Australia
Quote:

I have been studying the connection between karate, white crane and other Chinese arts.Can I ask how do you see the connection?
Jude



Goju-ryu has its roots in white crane.


Edited by ndj (03/15/08 12:52 AM)
_________________________
www.traditionalfightingarts.com

Top
#386069 - 03/15/08 01:53 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: ndj]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

Yes, it was a pre-arranged demo. Having said that, the drill is a 'lock flow' - the person placed in the lock escapes from the lock via the line of least resistance and thus via the most obvious route, whereupon the defender flows straight into another lock. Hence it is not so much a predetermined response so much as the most likely response.




I'll take your word for it. yes it looks very much like a predetermined sequence in the demo, but maybe more adhoc in class I'll assume.


This drill is derrived using principles learned from Gekisai kata? also, did your group develop it, or was it developed by Morio Higaonna?

thanks again.

Top
#386070 - 03/15/08 02:55 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Ed_Morris]
ndj Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 8
Loc: Perth, Western Australia
Quote:

This drill is derrived using principles learned from Gekisai kata? also, did your group develop it, or was it developed by Morio Higaonna?




Of course it is based on the kata. If you look closely, you will see the sideways facing shuto, the footsweep, the application of mawashi uke, etc.

The lockflow works this way: You put him in a lock, let him escape, then put him in another lock. He has few options for escape (elbows, etc only bend one way) - depending on how he escapes determines your response. Of course, there's no need to respond with another lock. Strikes are always an option.

Ideally in real world application, you put him in a lock and keep him in it. But the reality is that people try to escape from locks, thus you need to be able to respond appropriately or flow into another lock.

As for who developed the lockflow: The individual locks are common bunkai of the kata as as taught and demonstrated many times by Higaonna Sensei and other respected Goju teachers. The flow sequence shown in the video however, was put together by us with the benefit of our Chinese 'qin na' experience (fyi- qin na is based around lockflows).

PS - I'm not saying Higaonna Sensei can't do lockflows. Try escaping from one of his locks and see what happens! Just that the one in our video is not necessarily how he would do it.

Suffice it to say that every karateka should know how to use their karate for grappling. There is no use learning BJJ or some other art - unless sport competition is your goal (or its just for cross-training purposes). Higaonna Sensei will proudly tell you that all of his grappling knowledge comes from karate kata.


Edited by shoshinkan (03/15/08 05:19 AM)

Top
#386071 - 03/15/08 03:54 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: ndj]
ndj Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 8
Loc: Perth, Western Australia
please note - I edited your post above to read correctly.


Edited by shoshinkan (03/15/08 05:28 AM)
_________________________
www.traditionalfightingarts.com

Top
#386072 - 03/15/08 08:37 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: ndj]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
some of the locks I do associate as M.Higaonna-taught. Some, he seems to have developed/added along the way. Maybe not lock-flow, but I've seen him teach flow drills which expand upon push-hands type drills with strikes, grabs, takedowns, etc. and I do see that in what you are trying to teach.

However, I'm not sure just matching arm movements of kata to drill qualifies as 'bunkai/oyo', since the dynamic is more than an arm movement. What I mean is, Take the double strike 'finishing' technique in Gekisai. It was demonstrated in the video with a full body dynamic much closer to Sepai's double strike. whereas the dynamic of a double strike in Gekisai is quite different.

of course, on the other hand, anything can be anything you want.

Top
#386073 - 03/15/08 09:59 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: BrianS]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Jude, as far as karate's trapping and unbalancing methods they are pretty simple. They use either neck ties, over hooks, or underhooks. As far as unbalancing this usually follows distraction and involves leg techniques usually foot sweeps and borrowing balance on a distracted (usually by pain) or semi unconscious opponent/attacker.




Hmmmm....American kenpo has some neck-grab techniques that are similar to, but not the same as, orthodox wrestling neck-ties. I seem to remember some things similar to wrestling over-hooks, too. But generally not trained in the same (resistant) manner.

ndj -

I think that the BJJ training methodology is very useful for self defense. Timing, distancing, momentum, are all used as they would be in a "real" fight.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#386074 - 03/15/08 01:49 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: MattJ]
Unyu Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 62
Loc: Where I'm At
I agree with Matt that the GRACIE SD curriculum is useful for self defense. That's not to be confused with a BJJ school which fails to teach a specific SD aspect. Most do not. The Gracie Academies do. Rolling alone will ingrain many bad habits. Learning BJJ exclusively will limit you as modern MMA has proven (even in that controlled format).

I'd also like to welcome ndj. I overlooked this thread, but Jude33 dropped me a dime. Looks like I posted one of your guys' vids this A.M. in response to another thread dealing with grappling/groundfighting in kata. This ridiculous argument has been going on for years now. Limited experience is the reason.

All things change with time. The further you get from the source of something, the more drift there will be. If you have the integral template (in this case the Okinawan kata), a great instructor and the original purpose, then the task of keeping something relevant and less diluted is much easier. Gendai Budo folks tend to think that newer is always better. Maybe so, but for what purpose? Glory or self-preservation? Fighting for a thrill vs. fighting for self-protection?

I agree with ndj. I can't lie and say that I haven't dabbled in combat sport because I have. I can't say that being a judo-ka and boxer first didn't help me understand basic karate from a different perspective, because it did. What I can say is that many awesome karate-ka I know and have trained with and under can hold their own against any MMA-typen or BJJ'er I've seen out there. My brother had no experience in grappling outside Shorin Ryu and he handled a very large BJJ purple belt with ease. In a real fight using all his knowledge and skill he would have torn him a new one for sure.

If you do good Okinawan Karate from a good shinshi you will be a capable street grappler. Everything you need to know for reality is in the kata. EVERYTHING. If you can't see it or don't know that, it is not a shortcoming of other's training and experiences, that's something you need to address. Open your minds to the possibility that some of us might know more about original intent karate than others. It's the way life works.

Just because you have seniority or a mod position on a forum doesn't make you equal in knowledge and ability to a newcomer or someone who has never posted on these sites in their life. In fact if you listen to most of the older sensei they will tell you that these sites are a complete waste of time and populated by web warriors for the most part. That should tell you a lot. I am tired of the same naysayers with very,very limited training in good karate getting on here and projecting their inadequacies and insecurities on the web. The way some of you post it's easy to see who is a kuchi bushi and who is a true student of good karate. You can be adamant that your position(s) is/are valid, but the knowledgable understand what is salient or not.

There are grappling and groundfighting interpretations in kata. All kata contain aspects of all ranges if your idea of analysis is not static and if you have a strong experiential base. That is how the Okinawan Toudi styles were formulated. All of them required cross-training in various fighting styles of varied national origins by their founders. ALL OF THEM. Why would they forsake learning all ranges? Fighting has not changed at all. Body types have, but the techniques work for all body types.

There has been adaptation in Okinawan Karate, a lot of it is devolution in terms of original intent. Yet some styles and teachers preserved and passed on the real deal. Okinawan Karate is not static at all because the Okinawans were not the most formal and structured people to begin with. Techs have been added and deleted, but the kata still retain much of the old form (is that redundant?). The different toudi founders, Higashionna, Matsumura, Matsumora, Uechi, Mabuni etc. used their individual minds and bodies to integrate their understanding of ti with other MAs in order to provide very effective self-preservation arts. Without the old kata, coming to conclusions would be a lot harder. Karate even with "bunkai" is all about kata, kata, kata. Everything else is supplementary and subservient to the kata. Without the true intent inherent in the old forms you have brawling and sport, not martial ART.

If you're getting the "New, American Version" of the text versus the original "Old-Yet-Logically-Adaptable Okinawan Version" then a lot will be lost in the translation of the translation. In fact it will be quite a different version altogether. You should fill the gaps accordingly. If you doubt what you know then you need to research and test things on your own. Just don't dismiss out of lack of knowledge. It doesn't convince anyone who knows better, and YOU don't get any better from being obstinate for the sake of independent thought.

Good thread and ndj's people have "the real" karate. That is a very rare thing, but hopefully the head bashing some of us do on these sites will eventually equate to a more forceful, effective and RESPECTABLE version of karate. Go to the source if you want to know what it is you're missing. Keep looking. You'll find it if you really want to DO, instead of just type.

Train hard and smart party people...
_________________________
Verily and mayhaps, the morrow beckons, like watchtower beacons, and war does to weapons...

Top
#386075 - 03/15/08 07:57 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Zach_Zinn]
evad74 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Qld, Australia
I had a very limited experience with goju ryu befrore starting koryu uchinadi, mostly basics in line foramtion, kata (I had geikisai dai ichi down for blank repetition/little understanding, and could mostly follow alond with dai ni & saifa), and singular applications. I enjoyed it, but was never a fan of learning the movements of kata first, and then looking for the applications.

For myself, I've found 2 person drills (like the renzoku drills) a much faster and easier way to learn, giving a base understanding before learning the solo form. The flow of these drills, having to deal with reactions of others,different body types of partners, what comes next etc..has helped me remember singular applications better. While I agree there is only so much value in these drills, as a beginner they haved definately helped me become more adaptable in freestyle applications/sparring, and I suspect the same way more advanced karateka find kata an invaluable resource to look through for information, these types of 2 person drills(and the longer sets that follow) I find really easy to go over and cover a lot of ground in a short amount of time. A beginners opinion for what it's worth.

Top
#386076 - 03/17/08 12:16 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: evad74]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Actually, my teachers often seem to teach applciation/2 man drills before teaching the kata they came from; i've continued this somewhat in the small time i've been teaching.

These kind of bunkai drills aren't a substitute for the more "advanced" bunkai study and drills which tend to be alot less robotic and predictable.

P.S. Koryu Uchindai looks like great stuff!


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/17/08 12:17 AM)

Top
#386077 - 03/17/08 02:42 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Personally I am a big fan of systemised training. I think that all applications and training should come after learning the kata, as I feel the kata should provide the relevant level of balance and co-ordination for the student to competently apply the apps in basic before flow drills like those discussed refine those skills and give the student adaptability.
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

Top
#386078 - 03/26/08 01:24 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: ndj]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Suffice it to say that every karateka should know how to use their karate for grappling. There is no use learning BJJ or some other art - unless sport competition is your goal (or its just for cross-training purposes). Higaonna Sensei will proudly tell you that all of his grappling knowledge comes from karate kata.




Grappling and groundfighting are two different things.

As for the "Wrasslin in krotty" comment. That was medulanet paraphrasing what I said and trying to make hick references since I'm from Arkansas. Prejudice to say the least.

So, you are saying that Goju covers more grappling than BJJ? That's like saying BJJ covers more striking than Karate..quite a stretch.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#386079 - 03/26/08 01:28 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Unyu]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Unyu,

If you think you aren't doing something modern you are just fooling yourself. Fighting has progressed, you are just stuck on stupid and we can't fix that.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#386080 - 03/26/08 02:45 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: BrianS]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



the refabrication of history to serve current justifications is B.S." Ed Morris








From my studies that is agreed. But what happens if history can be proven (as far as history can be proven) that certain things were there to begin with that have been thought to have been lost or forgotten?

Like grappling that had elements of ground fighting in the study of the origins of ti, and why Medulant with his back ground in wrestling can see elements of it in karate?

From my research it is slowly looking like Medulant was 100 percent correct.

Jude.

Top
#386081 - 03/26/08 02:50 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: jude33]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

From my studies that is agreed. But what happens if history can be proven (as far as history can be proven) that certain things were there to begin with that have been thought to have been lost or forgotten?

Like grappling that had elements of ground fighting in the study of the origins of ti, and why Medulant with his back ground in wrestling can see elements of it in karate?

From my research it is slowly looking like Medulant was 100 percent correct.

Jude.





Show me your supposed research.

How is it 100 percent correct? I haven't seen anything. I don't take people's word for it either, no matter how good their credentials may appear.

BTW, I usually overlook your insights jude.


Edited by BrianS (03/26/08 02:53 AM)
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#386082 - 03/26/08 11:32 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: BrianS]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:


.

.

BTW, I usually overlook your insights jude.




Fine by me. History can be quite revealing.
Seen as my insights arent worthy I shall leave you guys to your own devices.

Medulant for what it is worth the evidence of your statements is growing.

Jude

Top
#386083 - 03/26/08 11:52 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: jude33]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Jude33 hanging there don't let mean BS chase you away. Remember he is not suppose to agree with you thats why we have opinions. Me and BS rarely agree on things and we practice a like system somewhat, but thats just means he is a hard man not easily swayed by intelligent input.

By the way I'm with BS on this one but thats just my opinion and they are like a$$ holes everybody has one. But where were all these guys before the UFC/1991 and why were they not the Champions being that they were practicing it all along shouldn't they be like the Gracies.

Don't let him run you away.


Edited by Neko456 (03/26/08 11:54 AM)

Top
#386084 - 03/26/08 01:16 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Neko456]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Jude33 hanging there don't let mean BS chase you away. Remember he is not suppose to agree with you thats why we have opinions. Me and BS rarely agree on things and we practice a like system somewhat, but thats just means he is a hard man not easily swayed by intelligent input.

By the way I'm with BS on this one but thats just my opinion and they are like a$$ holes everybody has one. But where were all these guys before the UFC/1991 and why were they not the Champions being that they were practicing it all along shouldn't they be like the Gracies.

Don't let him run you away.




Hi Neko.

Not running away, Neko there is definite proof outside the art of ti/ karate practiced on okinawa which I am following.

Why it wasnt practiced? I think it was but was stopped at some time and what continued was in the main watered down for different reasons. Some might have carried on and it has come through Medulants lineage in a way. The problem I have is the groundwork part. The influences and the connections. I need more detailed information on kata, mutou, tegumi( I think they might have been different methods) and other forms of wrestling before I can make a connection to the origins of ti.

Ti as thought before the addition of kata
Maki-wari
Sagi Maki-wari. How many people have heard of this let alone trained it?
Kakie
Iri- Kumi
kicks, knee and hand techiques, clothes and flesh grips, throws and trips, locks, chokes and hard physical training.

In all physical positions found in unarmed combat.

Jude

Top
#386085 - 03/26/08 03:47 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: jude33]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Sigh......topic = Renzoku drills not fantasies about Karate history and ill defined "research".

Funny how I never read any of this kind of speculation from real scholars in the field, just guys on forums..hmmm.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/26/08 03:49 PM)

Top
#386086 - 03/26/08 06:38 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Neko456]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Seems we do agree on something Neko. We agree on more than you realize I think.

"mean BS" lol!!
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#386087 - 03/27/08 12:51 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Sigh......topic = Renzoku drills not fantasies about Karate history and ill defined "research".






.
I presume karate ka of the past would have had drills?
Even if they did include ground work? So it is on topic.
Ill defined research it will remain untill it can be proven. Which shouldnt take too long.
Quote:


Funny how I never read any of this kind of speculation from real scholars in the field, just guys on forums..hmmm.



Did these scholars also practice drills?
Can you tell me what is a sagi maki-wari?

That might be a problem for some, just reading some one elses research with very, very little analytical thought.

Which scholars have you studied that are capable of actualy fighting.?
Please be so kind and pass on their names.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/27/08 12:55 AM)

Top
#386088 - 03/27/08 01:27 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: jude33]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
basically what I am telling you is that I have seen zilch in terms of credible scholarship which has found "groundfighting in kata", and as far as I can tell there is no historical example of it.

This does not imply Okinawans didn't know it, I don't doubt that they did, it means that it was not a systemized part of Karate training historically. If you can prove that wrong go ahead, but so far you guys have a big fat 0 in that department.

So stop talking about how easy it is to prove, and prove it.

Why can't you just integrate groundfighting into your Karate training (which is exactly the approach of people like Ian Abernethy etc.) and call it good?

Why is everyone so obsessed with "finding" it in kata?

Far as scholars who can fight, what the hell kind of question is that? You gonna go beat em up because they haven't found groundfighting in kata or what?

All this reminds of the "white crane" craze that started years ago, a bunch of tenous historical links (and that's being generous) and vague speculation combined with lots and lots of flavor of the month marketing terms seemed to obscure the actual valid research done in the area by Karate folks.

I suppose it would be easier to respond with specifics if you ever cited your sources for all the "research" and "studies" you constantly post about.

I'll try to keep it civil this time around.



Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/27/08 01:40 AM)

Top
#386089 - 03/27/08 01:50 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

basically what I am telling you is that I have seen zilch in terms of credible scholarship which has found "groundfighting in kata", and as far as I can tell there is no historical example of it.




Just because you have seen zilch in the past doesnt mean anything. Which one of your scholers has worked out the origins of ti?
Quote:


This does not imply Okinawans didn't know it, I don't doubt that they did, it means that it was not a systemized part of Karate training historically.



Of course they did. Karate was at one time a use able fighting art in all scenarios of fighting at that given time . Just because some chose not to use it as such doesnt mean it wasnt there.
Quote:



If you can prove that wrong go ahead, but so far you guys have a big fat 0 in that department.




You would think that. Why do you think that?
Because you cant find it?
Quote:


So stop talking about how easy it is to prove, and prove it.




No one said it was easy. It will be proven.
Quote:


Why can't you just integrate groundfighting into your Karate training (which is exactly the approach of people like Ian Abernethy etc.) and call it good?




Do and have done zach, but I would like the original stuff.
Quote:


Why is everyone so obsessed with "finding" it in kata?




It isnt just all in karate kata.

Jude

Top
#386090 - 03/27/08 02:10 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Zach, do you believe that the principles of "Ti" are preserved in the classical okinawan kata?
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

Top
#386091 - 03/27/08 02:29 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Zach, do you believe that the principles of "Ti" are preserved in the classical okinawan kata?




If anyone was actually able to prove historically what the entity called "ti" actually is or was then I could perhaps answer that question.

I've never seen any real documentation or in depth discussion of "ti" beyond people on forums making vague allusions to it

Again if you know something I don't then cough it up.

Do I think there's grappling in kata? Duh. I practice Goju, there's plenty of grappling.

So tell me, what is Ti? I've read probably like 100 threads on just that subjec tin the past 10 years or so and no one has been able to produce anything beyond some vague concepts, even the best reseachers like McCarthy seem don't seem to have exacting detail on it.

The bottom line is that there is a huge difference between acknowledging what is your own contribution/interpretation of an art, and claiming that said interpretation was there all along.

Top
#386092 - 03/27/08 02:32 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: jude33]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
me:
Quote:


If you can prove that wrong go ahead, but so far you guys have a big fat 0 in that department.






Quote:


You would think that. Why do you think that?
Because you cant find it?





No, I think that because you keep talking about having proof, and not posting any; with 100% consistency. Nothing you ever post on these subjects ever has enough detail or sense to draw a conclusion on.

So cough it up.

Hell, just give me the name of one credible writer who has done and found extensive proof of all the groundfighting in classical kata?

Why is that so hard if all these theories are so sound?

This isn't an argument about whether or not Okinawans knew how to wrestle, i'm quite sure they did.

And before you fire back about Ian Abernethy or someone, i've never seen any of these guys claim the groundfighting they train was somehow "found" in their kata, in fact in Karate's Grappling Methods he sums it up nicely by saying that you need to learn groundfighting holds which are not found in classical kata in order to apply Karate methods on the ground.

Does that sound like he's saying he got it all from his Okinawan kata?

BTW thanks for hijacking yet another thread with these endless ridiculous groundfighting discussions, maybe we should just change the name of the entire Karate forum to something like "Ti/Groundfighting/White Crane/Non-evidence-based research methods".


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/27/08 02:47 AM)

Top
#386093 - 03/27/08 02:50 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Actually Zach I have "coughed it up" before, but I guess you didn't get my drift (pun intended). Jokei Kushi, Shoshin Nagamine's senior most student, okinawan sumo expert and okinawan grappling historian's research concluded that te/ti/di was developed through adding striking and kicking to tegumi. He also determined that tegumi was a practice "not completely unlike present day amateur wrestling where the victor is the one who conclusively defeats his opponent by twisting his joints, sealing his breath, or holding him down so he can no longer move." In other words tegumi was a form of submission wrestling with pins. Te/ti/di was striking and kicking added to this type of wrestling. This information is contained in Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters on page 138.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

Top
#386094 - 03/27/08 11:13 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Yeah, I know they had wrestling, now what makes "ti" something that could be handed down through kata?

No offense Medulanet but what you've just presented is what virtually everyone knows about the development of Karate, it still seems to be devoid of specifics though.

With such a vague outline about the only conlclusion to draw is that you should "practice some form of grappling" with Karate.

We've already covered that.

Also, did Okinawan Sumo differ so greatly from it's Japanese counterpart that it invloved alot of groundwork?

Quote:

Te/ti/di was striking and kicking added to this type of wrestling.




How do these principles get transmitted through kata if we are required to train grappling in order to see them?

PLEASE stop trying to turn this into a thread where you claim i'm saying there's no grappling in Karate, for the nth time we've established there's grappling. I just don't believe there's any submission style wrestling in Kata specifically.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/27/08 11:18 AM)

Top
#386095 - 03/27/08 11:35 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
ZZ whatever its worth thats how I see it too. The wrestling and groundwork existed just like makeshift weapons exist but there use were not past on through the empty hand Kata.

It was in this sense past on in Kubodo katas and as it is the dance that preserved Wrestling of Okinawa imo. It exist but its seperate from the eh katas, Kubodo might be a bad example because it is a part of Karate systems, but I would say now this is mo, its not like the Brit guy stated that Sais were meant to be used in Sanchin or Tekki.

I know you can use empty hand katas with Kubodo weapons but this is not formal training you can makeshift anything and we do. I'm not trying to take this in another direction just stating things can exist and be used togather but not be a part of formal training.

I agree that most Okinawan were probably the 1st MMA fighters in theroy.


Edited by Neko456 (03/27/08 11:36 AM)
_________________________
DBAckerson

Top
#386096 - 03/27/08 11:38 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Neko456]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Greeks had Pankration way before the Okinawans had karate.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#386097 - 03/27/08 12:31 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Greeks had Pankration way before the Okinawans had karate.




Correct Matt, and Pankration was most likely the precusor to most Asain martial arts. In fact, pankration was a complete fighting system which included a version of kata. Which is very interesting that arguably the first MMAists included kata in their systems.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

Top
#386098 - 03/27/08 12:36 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: MattJ]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I stand corrected Pankration does have a longer history. And is a complete battle field Martial art.
_________________________
DBAckerson

Top
#386099 - 03/27/08 12:47 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Yeah, I know they had wrestling, now what makes "ti" something that could be handed down through kata?

No offense Medulanet but what you've just presented is what virtually everyone knows about the development of Karate, it still seems to be devoid of specifics though.

With such a vague outline about the only conlclusion to draw is that you should "practice some form of grappling" with Karate.

We've already covered that.

Also, did Okinawan Sumo differ so greatly from it's Japanese counterpart that it invloved alot of groundwork?

Quote:

Te/ti/di was striking and kicking added to this type of wrestling.




How do these principles get transmitted through kata if we are required to train grappling in order to see them?

PLEASE stop trying to turn this into a thread where you claim i'm saying there's no grappling in Karate, for the nth time we've established there's grappling. I just don't believe there's any submission style wrestling in Kata specifically.





Zach, you didn't answer my initial question. I asked if you believe that classical okinawan kata preserves the principles of ti/te/di. Its really a yes or no question. Or maybe a yes or no with a disclaimer. If you don't want to answer it I understand.

But, I am really not sure you are reading my posts, because several times I have stated that things such as grappling/wrestling/submission wrestling, weightlifting, cardio training, speedwork, limb hardening, spirit training, etc. are all supplemental karate training. They are then used to both apply and understand the material communicated in the kata of karate. And for some reason people have problem with this statement. In fact, they get really angry. Interesting. Anyway, I am guessing from your statements that you do not believe that karate contains the principles of ti/te/di in it. Or maybe you believe it just contains some of them, I don't know. Which is very interesting considering what many believe that kata includes such as the striking and kicking aspects of ti. As well as the joint locks and stand up grappling of ti. Do you believe it contains the "sealing the breath" of ti? If so only standing then? So what happens if the fight does hit the ground? Maybe since there was no MMA/UFC back then fights didn't hit the ground. Now, if they did, would an okinawan fighter be what we would call "touched in the head" enough to give up and let go of their advantage such as a choke or joint lock on the ground? Or would they continue the fight, utilize leverage and continue with their technique. Maybe even transition into a more advantageous position to continue to fight until they could either take their opponent out or simply get up because a grounded opponent is not that much of a threat to a standing one? Now if these were skills they utilized and proved to be useful do you believe they would preserve these skills somewhere. I don't know? You see Zach, I am not saying anything here. I am just allowing people to come to logical conclusions from the information presented. Especailly since it waws the "Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo" which preceeded kata and kata was based on these fighting skills and not the other way around.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

Top
#386100 - 03/27/08 01:51 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: medulanet]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Med,

Given the scenario you just posted, I believe that most folks who've not had formal ground training (okinawan or otherwise) would do either

a) dissengage and stand as quickly as possible, or
b) Utilize an advantage they may already have gained, such as choking if they can get to it or pounding down if they can get on top.

I feel that most folk who've not been trained on the ground would not be able to apply most of their stand up grappling skills or even think to do so if they were rolling on the floor with someone.
In addition most with stand up training would've had it drilled into their heads to get up asap as fighting on the ground is just a bad idea as you loose all mobility and should you be facing a bandit or a boat load of angry sailors you can bet help will be coming for your opponent while your tied up on the floor.

We don't know what Okinawan wrestling or Ti'gwa or whatever looked like or involved both in terms of technique and rules, it is all guess work. What we know is what has been passed on and strangely enough that is not ground grappling.

It would not be that hard to create a basic ground kata, I think they would've if they had ground work as a systemised method or even if the teachers kept a few set basics in their heads they could have been collected for posterity.

Ground fighting has never been a practical method outside of gladiatorial duels, so why would arts descended from war and advocated as life preservation skills incorporate anything more than how to escape it? Then if everyone holds this view where would one even learn it?

If Okinawan wrestling had striking added it would surely have been to improve it. My guess is that the idea came from observing chinese and siamese MAists. Even if there was once in the dim and distant past some form of ground grappling training happening on Okinawa that was related to what we now call Karate, might it not have been discarded in favour of the chinese quanfa methods? Methods which could actually keep people safe in a dockyard brawl and had the refinement and elegance of chinese culture with them.

I understand your reasoning but other conclusions can be drawn than the one's you and Jude make.
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

Top
#386101 - 03/27/08 02:59 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Shonuff]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Shonuff, since you seem to know what has and what has not been passed on in karate training over the years, can you give a list of anything other than kata, basics, and the classical or kihon bunkai which is impractical for fighting and a handful of conditioning tools? Karate has been used for many things over the years and not just fighting hoards of sailors on boats. Its odd that you use situations where fighting on the ground is impractical to illustrate why the okinawans would not have preserved any of it. What about in duties of the Shizoku class of Pechin. It seems as if all of the karate exponents from the 1700's and 1800s were of this class and had jobs such as law enforcement and such where subduing an enemy was very important. In fact, I know karateka who use their karate in security work to grapple with and put trouble makers on the ground in a variety of joint locks and chokes. And these are guys who have very limited grappling training. It has already been established that karate was not a battlefield art made for war, but for life/self preservation. Which may include fighting on the ground if nothing else to get up SAFELY. I would like to see someone not trained in any sort of ground fighting get up when I am trying to hold them down. Anything short of exceptional phsycial attributes and I guarantee they will not be able to do it quickly or effeciently if at all. Its interesting that people with little to no wrestling knowledge believe it is a simple thing to simply stand up against a trained grappler. Very interesting. In fact, I believe that karate kept in mind defeating trained grapplers, especially since the practice of tegumi was so wide spread in okinawa up until the early 1900s. As a karate man it is likely that you would have had to defeat a skilled grappler. And despite many a karateka's wildest dreams not going to the floor against a highly skilled grappler is sometimes not an option.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

Top
#386102 - 03/27/08 03:26 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: medulanet]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
I also think it is a matter of training versus strategy. For example when developing skill using renzoku drills/bunkai oyo it ususally won't go as smooth or clean as these perfect fight senarios Shonuff and others are describing. The standing exchanges may have more grabbing than striking because skill in striking against committed resistance has not yet been developed. The struggle may hit the ground and individuals may not be skilled in getting up either. The attacker may even win heaven forbid. That is where the supplemental training comes in. For example if you punch too slowly then additional training is necessary to improve the speed of strikes. Similarily if your grappling is broke then go fix it. The okinawans generally did this as I believe people who were not already skilled in many of the okinawan physical practices were not trained in classical karate. That is why Kyan's father trained him in "okinawan sumo and karate wrestling" before he was sent to Oyodomari and Matsumura for training. I lift weights but I don't plan on bench pressing my opponents in a fight, but I will use the skill gained to utilize my karate to the fullest. Grappling skill is used the same way.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

Top
#386103 - 03/27/08 03:53 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Med, I do read what you post, and I think you make alot of good points, I just don't feel that the transmission of any ground based skills is passed through standing karate kata.

There are things resembling a key-lock or what have you that appear in kata, but you would not automatically know how to do those on the ground without the training that goes along with it.

To me this just means that if you want those skills you need the supplementary groundfighting you talked about, however I don't think it was ever a huge part of Karate, it appears it was if anything a paralell pursuit.

The fact that most Karateka had a little wrestling doesn't mean that you ahve some kind of direct tranmission of their wrestling skills in your kata.

Nothing you have posted indicates otherwise. The fact that it requires dedicated research to dredge up even small details on the substance of "ti" proves my point.

So can "ti" be found in kata? I have no idea.
"Ti" is just a vague (and in vogue) term until you can actually define it.

However, as Shonuff mentioned no one knows what "Ti" actually is, so there is no gaurantee that the Ti you are training in your kata work is directly related to the original.

I find no fault whatsoever in your methodology or training ideas, I simply think you are stretching the limits of reasonable analysis by trying to graft some iffy historical ideas onto modern practice.

You can wrestle because you've wrestled, and you "get" wrestling, not because X Y or Z Okinawan master secretly encoded the principles of Ti in Gojushiho.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/27/08 03:59 PM)

Top
#386104 - 03/27/08 04:06 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
As far as research Zach, I didn't need detailed research at all. I practice Matsubayashi and I have for my entire karate life. The founder of our style only wrote two books. One about karate and another about karate and okinawan grappling/sumo. These are my reference points for my style.

In the other regards you are correct, however, your stance on grappling in kata is the same for all application. They are not secrets, just things that must be taught. I was never keen on reverse engineering. However, if you are given a template to interpret kata then it unfolds before you. Remember application came before the kata in the form of Ti/Te/Di. The quan fa forms were then added later. They were then molded by the okinawans to fit their needs and reflect their fighting. This is what they called Tode. The okinawan hand became chinese hand with the advent of forms training which they did not previously have. It wasn't until the mid 1900's for Tode to become Karate. Two man drills and application training is the only way to fully understand okinawan karate beyond the basic/beginner level.

I think one problem is that I am not one of those guys who believes he is training exactly as the okinawans did. I will never be able to do that. My experiences, training, and culture is just too different. Where the okinawans trained in tegumi I trained in what I can best describe as "street skills" before karate. These skills included what we considered play, but we would use in fighting as well. Grappling that involved throw downs, leg grabs, and headlocks (chancery) as well as a form of slap boxing with closed fist strikes to the body and open handed strikes to the face. But in a real fight we would punch to the face with a closed fist and kick a downed opponent. I played football and wrestled as well. The culture in which I practiced these things was so far removed from that of the okinawans it isn't even funny. Therefore I realize that there are automatically certain requirements to developing good okinawan karate that I needed. The good thing is that these things can be replaced by practices available to us in the western non okinawan world.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

Top
#386105 - 03/27/08 04:18 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Well said man, i can't find anything there to disagree with. So for now i'll stop my whining;)

Top
#386106 - 03/27/08 06:09 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Zach_Zinn]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

basically what I am telling you is that I have seen zilch in terms of credible scholarship which has found "groundfighting in kata", and as far as I can tell there is no historical example of it.




Very well put. And you will not see anything credible either.

Quote:

This does not imply Okinawans didn't know it, I don't doubt that they did, it means that it was not a systemized part of Karate training historically. If you can prove that wrong go ahead, but so far you guys have a big fat 0 in that department.




Words keep getting twisted, that's how they play this game. Now all of a sudden jude has groundfighting too,lol.

Quote:

So stop talking about how easy it is to prove, and prove it.




Yes, please please please.....

Quote:

Why can't you just integrate groundfighting into your Karate training (which is exactly the approach of people like Ian Abernethy etc.) and call it good?

Why is everyone so obsessed with "finding" it in kata?

Far as scholars who can fight, what the hell kind of question is that? You gonna go beat em up because they haven't found groundfighting in kata or what?

All this reminds of the "white crane" craze that started years ago, a bunch of tenous historical links (and that's being generous) and vague speculation combined with lots and lots of flavor of the month marketing terms seemed to obscure the actual valid research done in the area by Karate folks.

I suppose it would be easier to respond with specifics if you ever cited your sources for all the "research" and "studies" you constantly post about.

I'll try to keep it civil this time around.






Good post Zach. This is exactly the way I feel about things!
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#386107 - 03/27/08 06:13 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
medulanet,

Your statements have nothing to do with the question at hand.

FACT: There are no groundfighting applications from kata pre 1991 when ultimate fighting came on the scene. I have yet to see one single shred of evidence to the contrary, yet this is "easy to prove."

The Okinawans wrestled, yep, so what. The okinawans might have gone to the grouind in a fight, yep, so what.....This proves nothing in the least.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#386108 - 03/27/08 06:20 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

As far as research Zach, I didn't need detailed research at all. I practice Matsubayashi and I have for my entire karate life. The founder of our style only wrote two books. One about karate and another about karate and okinawan grappling/sumo. These are my reference points for my style.





Ok. Is groundfighting derrived from the kata he taught? If so, what?

Quote:

In the other regards you are correct, however, your stance on grappling in kata is the same for all application. They are not secrets, just things that must be taught. I was never keen on reverse engineering. However, if you are given a template to interpret kata then it unfolds before you. Remember application came before the kata in the form of Ti/Te/Di. The quan fa forms were then added later. They were then molded by the okinawans to fit their needs and reflect their fighting. This is what they called Tode. The okinawan hand became chinese hand with the advent of forms training which they did not previously have. It wasn't until the mid 1900's for Tode to become Karate. Two man drills and application training is the only way to fully understand okinawan karate beyond the basic/beginner level.






So, in other words kata now has groundfighting applications because of the way we fight?
Now all of a sudden karateka can "see" the groundfighting applications in kata because they might be taken down?

Quote:

I think one problem is that I am not one of those guys who believes he is training exactly as the okinawans did.




I'm not sure why anyone would wnat to train exactly the way they did. We have come so far since then.

Quote:

But in a real fight we would punch to the face with a closed fist and kick a downed opponent. I played football and wrestled as well. The culture in which I practiced these things was so far removed from that of the okinawans it isn't even funny. Therefore I realize that there are automatically certain requirements to developing good okinawan karate that I needed. The good thing is that these things can be replaced by practices available to us in the western non okinawan world.




Yes. That means that these applications weren't there all along and we can just now "see" them. It means that we recognize the need to integrate new material into our studies to be effective karateka, this includes groundfighting.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#386109 - 03/27/08 08:34 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: medulanet]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Quote:

Shonuff, since you seem to know what has and what has not been passed on in karate training over the years, can you give a list of anything other than kata, basics, and the classical or kihon bunkai which is impractical for fighting and a handful of conditioning tools?




Sure, but I don't need to. Yours is the assertion that groundfighting was a part of karate tradition from it's conception the burden of proof is on you. Why does Nagamine's book on Karate not include any ground fighting if it has always been part of the art and Nagamine was so clearly in the know about it even when all of his seniors said nothing of it?

Quote:

Karate has been used for many things over the years and not just fighting hoards of sailors on boats. Its odd that you use situations where fighting on the ground is impractical to illustrate why the okinawans would not have preserved any of it.




That's not odd, it's simple reasoning. What else am I going to do to make my point?

Quote:

What about in duties of the Shizoku class of Pechin. It seems as if all of the karate exponents from the 1700's and 1800s were of this class and had jobs such as law enforcement and such where subduing an enemy was very important. In fact, I know karateka who use their karate in security work to grapple with and put trouble makers on the ground in a variety of joint locks and chokes. And these are guys who have very limited grappling training.




As someone with experience in this area I can tell you that standing grappling skills are more than sufficient and not even necessary to restrain someone. Numbers and organisation are far more important in policing. Besides, police use weapons to subdue people, even on Okinawa.

Now if by ground grappling you mean floor restraint holds, that to me is a different thing to two people rolling on the floor. I happily accept that Karate does and always has contained some floor restraints. That is not where my issue lies although according to Pat McCarthy's research, Okinawan law enforcement favoured Chin na before Te evolved. Chin na is not a ground fighting art so it's incorporation into karate doesn't prove ground work.

Quote:

Which may include fighting on the ground if nothing else to get up SAFELY.




There is no other reason than to get up safely and that doesn't need specific ground grappling training as such.

Quote:

I would like to see someone not trained in any sort of ground fighting get up when I am trying to hold them down. Anything short of exceptional phsycial attributes and I guarantee they will not be able to do it quickly or effeciently if at all.
Its interesting that people with little to no wrestling knowledge believe it is a simple thing to simply stand up against a trained grappler. Very interesting. In fact, I believe that karate kept in mind defeating trained grapplers, especially since the practice of tegumi was so wide spread in okinawa up until the early 1900s. As a karate man it is likely that you would have had to defeat a skilled grappler. And despite many a karateka's wildest dreams not going to the floor against a highly skilled grappler is sometimes not an option.




You are confusing terms again Med. I'm not and have never disputed standing grappling in Karate. I'm not saying that some standing grappling cannot be used on the ground. I'm not even saying that standing grappling wasn't always practiced in Karate, I feel that it always was.
I also never said it was easy to stand, but there is no sense going to the ground unless you have back-up and you know for sure that that he doesn't. Otherwise you risk getting kicked in the head or worse.
What I am saying is that I don't think Okinawan wrestling involved specific ground grappling training (as in stuff you practice from both being on the floor).
Hence any wrestlers a medieval karateka would've faced would not likely be trying to hold him down and choke him, or if they were it is instinctive and not developed by training.
What I think the medieval grappler's would've been doing is throwing people to the floor and kicking them before they could get up.

Here's some reading other than Nagamine for you. These links are best gone through in order.

http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com/original_five_fighting_arts.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuai_jiao
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qin_na

http://www.swaijiao.com/media/techniques.php
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWG6eglkLa8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPE6YJpZjTM

No ground work in sight.

All that leaves us is the mysterious Tegumi, which seems to have evolved from a grappling/striking mix which was used on the battlefield. Now the Okinawans may have added ground submission and dropped the striking to make the sport (and it was a sport) more interesting and less dangerous. Thus it is conceivable that some such technique would've found it's way into Karate, but considering that one art is looked on as fun and the other as life and death I don't think it's very likely. And why did no one teach it any of this ground work in Karate's early days of expansion?
Why did no one older than Nagamine speak of it?
Why did Nagamine not include it's techniques in his book, or Motobu in his for that matter?
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

Top
#386110 - 03/28/08 01:50 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Shonuff]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Why does Nagamine's book on Karate not include any ground fighting if it has always been part of the art and Nagamine was so clearly in the know about it even when all of his seniors said nothing of it?




You may not know this, but there is ALOT that Nagamine's book does not show about his art. It is a very basic guide to his art and by no means a complete detailing. It simply shows kihon, kata, and yakusoku.

Quote:

Now if by ground grappling you mean floor restraint holds, that to me is a different thing to two people rolling on the floor.




Since when is ground fighting rolling around on the floor? I'm not sure what kind of fighting/grappling you're into but that is not my definition of ground fighting. I have even said hold downs, chokes, and joint locking techniques are the ground fighting techniques of okinawan karate. When did I exactly say rolling around on the floor was a part of okinawan karate? Or is this something you simply created in your mind?

Quote:

I happily accept that Karate does and always has contained some floor restraints.




Then what are you arguing with me about?

Quote:

There is no other reason than to get up safely and that doesn't need specific ground grappling training as such.




This statement proves you have never grappled against an experienced grappler that has any skill in holding a person down.

Quote:

You are confusing terms again Med. I'm not and have never disputed standing grappling in Karate. I'm not saying that some standing grappling cannot be used on the ground. I'm not even saying that standing grappling wasn't always practiced in Karate, I feel that it always was.
I also never said it was easy to stand, but there is no sense going to the ground unless you have back-up and you know for sure that that he doesn't. Otherwise you risk getting kicked in the head or worse.
What I am saying is that I don't think Okinawan wrestling involved specific ground grappling training (as in stuff you practice from both being on the floor).
Hence any wrestlers a medieval karateka would've faced would not likely be trying to hold him down and choke him, or if they were it is instinctive and not developed by training.
What I think the medieval grappler's would've been doing is throwing people to the floor and kicking them before they could get up.




I hate to break this to you, but an okinawan who was an expert in okinawan sumo, most likely practiced tegumi in his youth because he was an adolescent when tegumi was still practiced, and a historian of okinawa's grappling traditions disagrees with this statement. What other than pure speculation leads you to believe this?

Quote:

All that leaves us is the mysterious Tegumi, which seems to have evolved from a grappling/striking mix which was used on the battlefield. Now the Okinawans may have added ground submission and dropped the striking to make the sport (and it was a sport) more interesting and less dangerous. Thus it is conceivable that some such technique would've found it's way into Karate, but considering that one art is looked on as fun and the other as life and death I don't think it's very likely. And why did no one teach it any of this ground work in Karate's early days of expansion?
Why did no one older than Nagamine speak of it?
Why did Nagamine not include it's techniques in his book, or Motobu in his for that matter?




As far as Motobu I believe everytime he fought a legit okinawan grappling expert he got spanked. Due to this I would not expect him to mention much grappling.

Actually Hohan Soken was older than Nagamine and did speak of it.

And in karate's expansion the okinawans didn't teach much. They didn't even teach much application of technique. Why didn't they teach much of the many other things contained in karate?
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

Top
#386111 - 03/28/08 07:33 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: medulanet]
ThunderboltLotus Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 16
Loc: Cornwall, Great Britain
All - Make of this what you may

Like every other Okinawan boy, I spent many happy hours engaging in or watching Tegumi bouts, but it was after I had taken up Karate seriously that I came to realise that tegumi offers a unique opportunity for training, in that it need not be limited to two participants. One (usually, of course, an older stronger boy) may take on two or three opponents or as many he feels up to.
Such bouts begin with the lone wrestler lying down flat on his back, his opponents pinning down his arms and legs. Once I had determined to be a Karateka, I used to get four of five younger boys to wrestle with me…..now I cannot say how much tegumi actually contributed to my mastery of Karate, but I am certain it helped fortify my will.

Gichin Funakoshi 1868 – 1957 Karate-Do My Way of Life p.123/4
_________________________
Michael Powell

Top
#386112 - 03/28/08 08:38 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



So tell me, what is Ti? I've read probably like 100 threads on just that subjec tin the past 10 years or so and no one has been able to produce anything beyond some vague concepts, even the best reseachers like McCarthy seem don't seem to have exacting detail on it.





Here we go.

Ok Zach

Say little itsy bitsy me student and all can prove what ti was/ is? Including ground work. Admittedly my grappling skill arent high enough yet so I have to ask. I do posses some though. I saw the need some time ago.

Other things I research I dont know so I have to ask. But h I couldnt give a %%%%% about what scholers did or didint find. It is what I find. And guess what? This student has found stuff that will more or less back up everything Medulant has stated and what I thought in the first place.

When I do and say I publish my findings then it will have to be as near provable as I can get. Because the likes of you and others on here and else where will try to rip it to pieces.


And yes Sensie McCarthy does post on here so I am hardly going to post my research am I? Its a bit like sepia again.


Quote:


Far as scholars who can fight, what the hell kind of question is that? You gonna go beat em up because they haven't found groundfighting in kata or what?




So we are back to the silly stuff again.

Oh yes I nearly forgot. The silly statement about scholers that can or cant fight. How pray tell would someone who cant fight know what to look for? I am going to keep this cival.I have to ask on certain things and I have some expereince?
What is Joe Bloggs historian with none at all going to do?
Quote:



All this reminds of the "white crane" craze that started years ago, a bunch of tenous historical links (and that's being generous) and vague speculation combined with lots and lots of flavor of the month marketing terms seemed to obscure the actual valid research done in the area by Karate folks.




The white crane infleunce now that is getting interesting as well.Oh dear I havent realy trained in white crane.
But I can see connections to zan chin? I can see badly done wing chun? why is it badly done? Because the lineage got messed up?. Because I wouldnt use what some are trying to use? Perhaps the person teaching didnt complete their studies with Yip Man? Or is history wrong again?
And oh what else do I see? I observe lots.
Enought to know what I need to know and still learning.
Quote:


.
it would be easier to respond with specifics if you ever cited your sources for all the "research" and "studies" you constantly post about.





Easier for you perhaps?


Ti= fighting art.
Karate= the name given to fighting arts that ended up with a Japanese name

Medulant in the near future everything you have stated will be as near provable as can be made.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/28/08 09:09 AM)

Top
#386113 - 03/28/08 08:48 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Shonuff]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
I honestly think when I have all the proof needed I will publish a book. Every one of these arguments and counter arguments have/ are playing a roll in my research.

I am afraid most are missing the basics.
Medulant is correct.

Jude

Top
#386114 - 03/28/08 08:53 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: jude33]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Shut up jude. You can't even get his name right.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#386115 - 03/28/08 09:07 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: BrianS]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Shut up jude. You can't even get his name right.




Did I miss spell Bryan again?
Ok My mistake Brian.
But, sorry boss otherwise I dont shut up. ?
And dont be making silly threats again that the moderators had to remove like last time eh?

Quote:


Words keep getting twisted, that's how they play this game. Now all of a sudden jude has groundfighting too,lol.






Of course I study ground fighting. Have done for some time.
Not long by some standards. Still learning Brian.

You see Brian when we take People like Geoff Thompson in to consideration. The amount of experience he has working on the doors etc. He states the different positions that fights end up in. His experince by the way was way before UFC/ MMA came on the scene.

Now if fights end up in all those positions what makes you think they didnt way back when in the formation of ti?
Seems unusual dont you think. If I observe wrestlers where do they go? All positions.

Including fighting from the ground?
Just because some karate ka didnt include it what does that mean?
Means they werent to experienced in the fighting application karate was meant for perhaps?

Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/28/08 09:42 AM)

Top
#386116 - 03/28/08 10:27 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: ThunderboltLotus]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Interesting but did you study wrestling and groundwork in your Karate curriculum I'm assuming you didn't. And thats the point we are making not that groundfighting didn't exist in Okinawa but it is not past down through Karate's Kata system.

There is little doubt that Chin na influenced Karate as it is almost a part of every Kung-fu system. And so Karate's kata does have standing, kneeling grappling and pound and ground aspects but not both people on the ground pining, submission, capturing techniques in Kata.

Get him Jude33 don't let him bully you , I like setting up fights I mean debates. Don't shut up then he wins, bad BS bad dog. Sickem Jude33!!


Edited by Neko456 (03/28/08 10:33 AM)
_________________________
DBAckerson

Top
#386117 - 03/28/08 10:36 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: medulanet]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Med,

first off, chill out.

As I see it the disagreement we have is that you feel ground grappling principles are contained within kata, and within the tradition of Karate training. I do not.

I see ground grappling as a seperate entity which may or may not have been practiced as an aspect of Okinawan wrestling.

Floor restraints, and generally the kind of techniques and principles I see as being present within Karate kata are illustrated thus:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEU1fGu0Vog

Ground grappling (aka rolling around on the floor) I see as this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6mMtHqXyYc

I don't feel the latter fighting method was systemised on Okinawa (I'm not even convinced it was practiced) because:
Most wrestling competitions that I've seen get stood up after a short time on the floor.
The historic ancestor style of Tegumi seems not to have had or needed ground techniques.
I've not seen anything that convinces me that Tegumi was any different.
The very fact that Okinawans had the tegumi tradition and that everyone took part in it means to me that there is no need to include it in the kata or the training regimen of Karate as everyone is doing it anyway. Why waste time doing tegumi in a karate class when I do tegumi on on the other days of the week.

I feel that tegumi was not transposed into Karate.
I feel this way because while I can find old black and white pics of throws, joint locks and floor restraints done by karateka of the past, I can't find anything that looks like what goes on in the second vid.
I know from experience that skill in the first does not lead to skill in the second.
Even though many of the principles are the same or similar when standing I feel that the techniques in ground work and the mechanics of movement and the skills and points to be aware of are different enough to warrant completely seperate practice. Since I don't see any kata or kihon done from the back or the knees (defenses to standing attackers while in seiza don't count Jude) in any of the Karate I've seen I am not convinced of its inclusion.
I see no reason to include ground techniques in a self defense art because I see it as an impractical method for self defense and I feel that the skills of standing grappling (which I do feel are necessary) are sufficient to facilitate avoidance or escape.

Now if you believe different Med that is cool and I would like to know your reasoning.
The impression I get is that because Nagamine mentioned that he learned Tegumi and used the phrase karate wrestling, and you hold different views as to it's practicality you are convinced of it's inclusion in Karate kata and training.
Is this a fair assesment?

If my definition of ground grappling is different to yours then please let me know. A vid of what you mean would be a good aid.

On a side note, Tegumi sounds to me like Judo (I know Judo has ground techniques), yet the Okinawans still took Judo into their schools. Does anyone know of technical differences between the two, or would it have just been the systematic nature of Judo teaching that made it popular?
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

Top
#386118 - 03/28/08 01:55 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Shonuff]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I agree with Shonuff on this, they exist but in different realms a part of but not a part of. They are a part because of wrestling being a common seperate traditional and culture event.
They are not trained together because they are not apart of the same formal set of kata trained. The Wrestling was almost a misnomer because it was so common that it didn't need to be mentioned or set in Kata or existed before kata.

Shonuff has in specific detail shown how we non ground fighting in the katas see it. I don't see how it can be proven unless you train and do kata with rolling in it as in Silat and Pankration or like Judo not in kata but a section of training writen and acknowledge as a tradition it's there for all to see. Not a spectulation.

To the Pro Ground fighting group much reknown Master Pat McCarthy agrees with you but not before 1991 he didn't,I'm assuming.

But my eyes don't lie to me. I see what I see. This is JMO. I may be too close to see it or to stuborn.


Edited by Neko456 (03/28/08 02:04 PM)
_________________________
DBAckerson

Top
#386119 - 03/28/08 02:12 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Shonuff]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Actually it appears you have no idea what I am talking about when it comes to ground fighting in karate/kata. You showed a video of a guy who's primary strategy was to take his opponent down. I have stated many times that the primary stragety of karate is striking.

So, where does the ground fighting come in? Well, a few ways really. First off if you are getting beat down in the striking department and cannot escape. Second if you have entered into close range fighting and damaged you opponent with strikes then it is time to put him down (if he has not already fallen). In these senarios you put him down with a throw or takedown in order to obtain a knee ride and hit him so he won't get back up. If he tries to entangle your arms utilize an arm bar or shoulder lock (not the kind where you are lying on the ground with him, but where you are either standing above or kneeling on your opponent). Use these to break a joint or open up things like kicks, stomps, or strikes to the downed opponent. Now, there may be a time where you may need to hold the opponent in place, either when on top or while on bottom. This is accomplished with the stacked hands position. Remember, this position is one of the dead givaways in kata that mucho grappling is occuring. It is simply an underhook with the other hand behind the neck of your opponent. This is used in ALL positions. For many different grappling applications. Now, if you get taken down by an opponent you use underhooks in all positions to work to your feet except if the opponent has not passed your legs. In karate hooking under the arm and controlling the head is used for control in a variety of situations. In the case where the opponent has not passed your legs you hand fight until you get control of the hands/wrists until you can scoot your hips out to get up. That is where all of the wrist locks, releases, and such come into play. I have always heard people ask when an attacker will actually grab your wrists. Its not standing when the are trying to punch you or grab you. It is usually on the ground. Shifting and switching of the hips, crossing of the legs, etc. is all good training to develop strength and dexterity so you can manuveur in all situations. Shorin Ryu karate is about motion. The motion does not stop if you hit the ground. You have to be able to move in all situations.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

Top
#386120 - 03/28/08 04:19 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Med, everyone knows there's techniques in kata that may put you on the floor, where I think the disagreement lies is in the assumption (tell me if this isn't what you're saying) that standing kata includes grappling on the ground for dominant position, or includes actual mnemonics for things like juji-gatame on the ground, knowing how to do some armbar standing doesn't imply neccessarily that the skills will naturally transfer in the horizontal world.

I personally feel that within (Goju kata at least) it seems there are plenty of throws and takedowns which maybe imply ending up in mount or side control if neccessary, but there is nothing there about the tactical game you need to learn for actual control on the ground. You simply have to learn that somewhere else, like they did with Tegumi, like you did with wrestling, like many do with Judo or BJJ.

That's really the bottom line, like any training method Kata has it's limits and I think grappling (and I mean specifically rolling around scrambling for dominant position) is not really addressed in it.

P.S. To Jude, none of that made any sense, so i'm not gonna bother with specifics. Just let us know when your awesome work of research on the lost arts of the Ryukyus is finished. I'm sure it will be an extensively detailed, well researched bit of scholarship lauded for it's exacting standards of detail and extensive bibliography, much like your posts. Furthermore i'm sure the Karate community will be taken by storm by the fact that a humble, reserved, still-learning, forum-dwelling student has turned all the past research into the history of Karate on it's head.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/28/08 04:25 PM)

Top
#386121 - 03/28/08 06:34 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: jude33]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
jood33,

Prove it or just keep quiet.

"medulant is right." lol

dir!!
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#386122 - 03/28/08 06:36 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Are you EVER going to show us where groundfighting applications are found in kata pre 1991? Are you EVER going to answer what those groundfighting techniques are and where they are?

Ofcourse you have stated that naihanchi crossing legs id a closed guard,lol.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#386123 - 03/28/08 11:07 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Are you EVER going to show us where groundfighting applications are found in kata pre 1991? Are you EVER going to answer what those groundfighting techniques are and where they are?

Ofcourse you have stated that naihanchi crossing legs id a closed guard,lol.




Nope, no closed guard in karate. If you close your legs you will never get back up. That is a BJJ fighting strategy and mentality. The legs are open and help you work to get to your base. Two different approaches to grappling.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

Top
#386124 - 03/28/08 11:11 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Med, everyone knows there's techniques in kata that may put you on the floor, where I think the disagreement lies is in the assumption (tell me if this isn't what you're saying) that standing kata includes grappling on the ground for dominant position, or includes actual mnemonics for things like juji-gatame on the ground, knowing how to do some armbar standing doesn't imply neccessarily that the skills will naturally transfer in the horizontal world.




No, you don't have it right. Karate grappling is not about grappling for a dominant position from top. You either hit your opponent, break his limbs, or you stand up and hit him. From the bottom you don't grapple for a dominant position on the ground. You grapple to stand up.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

Top
#386125 - 03/28/08 11:38 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Quote:

Med, everyone knows there's techniques in kata that may put you on the floor, where I think the disagreement lies is in the assumption (tell me if this isn't what you're saying) that standing kata includes grappling on the ground for dominant position, or includes actual mnemonics for things like juji-gatame on the ground, knowing how to do some armbar standing doesn't imply neccessarily that the skills will naturally transfer in the horizontal world.




No, you don't have it right. Karate grappling is not about grappling for a dominant position from top. You either hit your opponent, break his limbs, or you stand up and hit him. From the bottom you don't grapple for a dominant position on the ground. You grapple to stand up.




Edited because i'm done with the discussion for now, I think everyone has made their points and we are not going to agree, and I feel like this will never end lol.

Anyway good luck in however you decide to train, can someone please post something about renzoku drills or some such though, so we can stop talking about groundfighting in kata?

I swear that has been 80% of the conversations in this forum since i've been using it.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/28/08 11:45 PM)

Top
#386126 - 03/28/08 11:45 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

I agree with what you are saying above strategically, but I feel like you've shifted gears a bit from your defnition of "grappling" so far in the discussion.





Okay Zach, why don't you give me the definition I gave for grappling.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

Top
#386127 - 03/28/08 11:47 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Quote:

I agree with what you are saying above strategically, but I feel like you've shifted gears a bit from your defnition of "grappling" so far in the discussion.





Okay Zach, why don't you give me the definition I gave for grappling.




Bah you respond too quickly, see above i'm tired of arguing with you, it's going nowhere, have fun.

For my part I think you've been reasonable, we just disagree on certain things.

Top
#386128 - 03/29/08 12:55 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Zach_Zinn]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I agree with what you are saying above strategically, but I feel like you've shifted gears a bit from your defnition of "grappling" so far in the discussion.





Okay Zach, why don't you give me the definition I gave for grappling.




Bah you respond too quickly, see above i'm tired of arguing with you, it's going nowhere, have fun.

For my part I think you've been reasonable, we just disagree on certain things.




Ditto.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#386129 - 03/29/08 07:39 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo *DELETED* [Re: Shonuff]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Post deleted by jude33

Top
#386130 - 03/29/08 07:52 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: jude33]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



Interesting but did you study wrestling and groundwork in your Karate curriculum I'm assuming you didn't. And thats the point we are making not that groundfighting didn't exist in Okinawa but it is not past down through Karate's Kata system.







Hi, Neko , You have again made valid points for further research, great when we all communicate because I think everybody learns from each other.




Shonuff

Im glad you posted this. Good find .


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEU1fGu0Vog

0.45 on the video when the guy is sitting on top and pounding.

That is my term for what he is doing.
( Mounted position in BJJ terms)
(If brian needs the judo term because he doesnt know the bjj term I can post it)
(Have to ask Medulant for the wrestling term.) )


Ok, I am refering to one of the escapes from that position that brings a person back to their feet.

I agree in karate it would be aimed at getting to the feet.

I think the mechanics of this series of moves ( I am refering to one method that I practice (its found in BJJ and more than likely other arts) and I have had some succss with if done quickly and effectively) might have been put in to standing kata .

One of the important parts of the seriouse of moves are turning the body in the correct direction in regards to what the opponent is doing.

The last part of the moves could be practiced standing as well kneeling and lying prone.

Any how I am looking for the mechanics of that method in kata. When I find them I will post the whole thing.
Speaking of drills the method could be broken down practiced in parts as a drill.

Jude refusin to shut up about wrasslin in kata.


Edited by jude33 (03/29/08 08:10 AM)

Top
#386131 - 03/29/08 09:10 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: jude33]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Jude,

That sounds like an interesting line of reasoning, why don't you describe, or better yet post a vid of the technique you are talking about, some of us may start seeing where youguys are coming from then?

Med,

Do you have or have you seen any vids of the kind of techniques or method you're talking about that aims to stand from the ground? I think that would be very helpful.

I think much confusion has come into this because through this discussion you have talked about chokes and locks and submission fighting (in terms of Tegumi) and why those skills would be helpful, not so much about standing up.

If you'd said from the beginning "Karate's grappling centres around techniques specifically for standing someone up whose been taken down" opposition may have been less fierce. Maybe you did say it, but it certainly wasn't what most of your posts communicated, whether you intended it or not.

Personally I am still dubious (as is my right), mostly for the many reasons stated in my last post. I would love to see examples of the kind of technique/method you are talking about, but at this point I think we have enough common ground and enough good reasons of our own to agree to disagree.

Good discussion.
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

Top
Page 1 of 11 1 2 3 ... 10 11 >


Moderator:  Ames, Cord, MattJ, Reiki, Ronin1966 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Ryukyu Art
Artifacts from the Ryukyu Kingdom missing since WWII. Visit www.ShisaLion.Org to view pictures

Best Stun Guns
Self Defense Products-stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and more

Surveillance 4U
Complete surveillance systems for covert operations or secure installation security

Asylum Images
Book presents photo tour of the Trans-Allegany Lunatic Asylum. A must if you're going to take a ghost tour!

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga