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#386105 - 03/27/08 04:18 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Well said man, i can't find anything there to disagree with. So for now i'll stop my whining;)

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#386106 - 03/27/08 06:09 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Zach_Zinn]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

basically what I am telling you is that I have seen zilch in terms of credible scholarship which has found "groundfighting in kata", and as far as I can tell there is no historical example of it.




Very well put. And you will not see anything credible either.

Quote:

This does not imply Okinawans didn't know it, I don't doubt that they did, it means that it was not a systemized part of Karate training historically. If you can prove that wrong go ahead, but so far you guys have a big fat 0 in that department.




Words keep getting twisted, that's how they play this game. Now all of a sudden jude has groundfighting too,lol.

Quote:

So stop talking about how easy it is to prove, and prove it.




Yes, please please please.....

Quote:

Why can't you just integrate groundfighting into your Karate training (which is exactly the approach of people like Ian Abernethy etc.) and call it good?

Why is everyone so obsessed with "finding" it in kata?

Far as scholars who can fight, what the hell kind of question is that? You gonna go beat em up because they haven't found groundfighting in kata or what?

All this reminds of the "white crane" craze that started years ago, a bunch of tenous historical links (and that's being generous) and vague speculation combined with lots and lots of flavor of the month marketing terms seemed to obscure the actual valid research done in the area by Karate folks.

I suppose it would be easier to respond with specifics if you ever cited your sources for all the "research" and "studies" you constantly post about.

I'll try to keep it civil this time around.






Good post Zach. This is exactly the way I feel about things!
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#386107 - 03/27/08 06:13 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
medulanet,

Your statements have nothing to do with the question at hand.

FACT: There are no groundfighting applications from kata pre 1991 when ultimate fighting came on the scene. I have yet to see one single shred of evidence to the contrary, yet this is "easy to prove."

The Okinawans wrestled, yep, so what. The okinawans might have gone to the grouind in a fight, yep, so what.....This proves nothing in the least.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#386108 - 03/27/08 06:20 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

As far as research Zach, I didn't need detailed research at all. I practice Matsubayashi and I have for my entire karate life. The founder of our style only wrote two books. One about karate and another about karate and okinawan grappling/sumo. These are my reference points for my style.





Ok. Is groundfighting derrived from the kata he taught? If so, what?

Quote:

In the other regards you are correct, however, your stance on grappling in kata is the same for all application. They are not secrets, just things that must be taught. I was never keen on reverse engineering. However, if you are given a template to interpret kata then it unfolds before you. Remember application came before the kata in the form of Ti/Te/Di. The quan fa forms were then added later. They were then molded by the okinawans to fit their needs and reflect their fighting. This is what they called Tode. The okinawan hand became chinese hand with the advent of forms training which they did not previously have. It wasn't until the mid 1900's for Tode to become Karate. Two man drills and application training is the only way to fully understand okinawan karate beyond the basic/beginner level.






So, in other words kata now has groundfighting applications because of the way we fight?
Now all of a sudden karateka can "see" the groundfighting applications in kata because they might be taken down?

Quote:

I think one problem is that I am not one of those guys who believes he is training exactly as the okinawans did.




I'm not sure why anyone would wnat to train exactly the way they did. We have come so far since then.

Quote:

But in a real fight we would punch to the face with a closed fist and kick a downed opponent. I played football and wrestled as well. The culture in which I practiced these things was so far removed from that of the okinawans it isn't even funny. Therefore I realize that there are automatically certain requirements to developing good okinawan karate that I needed. The good thing is that these things can be replaced by practices available to us in the western non okinawan world.




Yes. That means that these applications weren't there all along and we can just now "see" them. It means that we recognize the need to integrate new material into our studies to be effective karateka, this includes groundfighting.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#386109 - 03/27/08 08:34 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: medulanet]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Quote:

Shonuff, since you seem to know what has and what has not been passed on in karate training over the years, can you give a list of anything other than kata, basics, and the classical or kihon bunkai which is impractical for fighting and a handful of conditioning tools?




Sure, but I don't need to. Yours is the assertion that groundfighting was a part of karate tradition from it's conception the burden of proof is on you. Why does Nagamine's book on Karate not include any ground fighting if it has always been part of the art and Nagamine was so clearly in the know about it even when all of his seniors said nothing of it?

Quote:

Karate has been used for many things over the years and not just fighting hoards of sailors on boats. Its odd that you use situations where fighting on the ground is impractical to illustrate why the okinawans would not have preserved any of it.




That's not odd, it's simple reasoning. What else am I going to do to make my point?

Quote:

What about in duties of the Shizoku class of Pechin. It seems as if all of the karate exponents from the 1700's and 1800s were of this class and had jobs such as law enforcement and such where subduing an enemy was very important. In fact, I know karateka who use their karate in security work to grapple with and put trouble makers on the ground in a variety of joint locks and chokes. And these are guys who have very limited grappling training.




As someone with experience in this area I can tell you that standing grappling skills are more than sufficient and not even necessary to restrain someone. Numbers and organisation are far more important in policing. Besides, police use weapons to subdue people, even on Okinawa.

Now if by ground grappling you mean floor restraint holds, that to me is a different thing to two people rolling on the floor. I happily accept that Karate does and always has contained some floor restraints. That is not where my issue lies although according to Pat McCarthy's research, Okinawan law enforcement favoured Chin na before Te evolved. Chin na is not a ground fighting art so it's incorporation into karate doesn't prove ground work.

Quote:

Which may include fighting on the ground if nothing else to get up SAFELY.




There is no other reason than to get up safely and that doesn't need specific ground grappling training as such.

Quote:

I would like to see someone not trained in any sort of ground fighting get up when I am trying to hold them down. Anything short of exceptional phsycial attributes and I guarantee they will not be able to do it quickly or effeciently if at all.
Its interesting that people with little to no wrestling knowledge believe it is a simple thing to simply stand up against a trained grappler. Very interesting. In fact, I believe that karate kept in mind defeating trained grapplers, especially since the practice of tegumi was so wide spread in okinawa up until the early 1900s. As a karate man it is likely that you would have had to defeat a skilled grappler. And despite many a karateka's wildest dreams not going to the floor against a highly skilled grappler is sometimes not an option.




You are confusing terms again Med. I'm not and have never disputed standing grappling in Karate. I'm not saying that some standing grappling cannot be used on the ground. I'm not even saying that standing grappling wasn't always practiced in Karate, I feel that it always was.
I also never said it was easy to stand, but there is no sense going to the ground unless you have back-up and you know for sure that that he doesn't. Otherwise you risk getting kicked in the head or worse.
What I am saying is that I don't think Okinawan wrestling involved specific ground grappling training (as in stuff you practice from both being on the floor).
Hence any wrestlers a medieval karateka would've faced would not likely be trying to hold him down and choke him, or if they were it is instinctive and not developed by training.
What I think the medieval grappler's would've been doing is throwing people to the floor and kicking them before they could get up.

Here's some reading other than Nagamine for you. These links are best gone through in order.

http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com/original_five_fighting_arts.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuai_jiao
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qin_na

http://www.swaijiao.com/media/techniques.php
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWG6eglkLa8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPE6YJpZjTM

No ground work in sight.

All that leaves us is the mysterious Tegumi, which seems to have evolved from a grappling/striking mix which was used on the battlefield. Now the Okinawans may have added ground submission and dropped the striking to make the sport (and it was a sport) more interesting and less dangerous. Thus it is conceivable that some such technique would've found it's way into Karate, but considering that one art is looked on as fun and the other as life and death I don't think it's very likely. And why did no one teach it any of this ground work in Karate's early days of expansion?
Why did no one older than Nagamine speak of it?
Why did Nagamine not include it's techniques in his book, or Motobu in his for that matter?
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#386110 - 03/28/08 01:50 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Shonuff]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Why does Nagamine's book on Karate not include any ground fighting if it has always been part of the art and Nagamine was so clearly in the know about it even when all of his seniors said nothing of it?




You may not know this, but there is ALOT that Nagamine's book does not show about his art. It is a very basic guide to his art and by no means a complete detailing. It simply shows kihon, kata, and yakusoku.

Quote:

Now if by ground grappling you mean floor restraint holds, that to me is a different thing to two people rolling on the floor.




Since when is ground fighting rolling around on the floor? I'm not sure what kind of fighting/grappling you're into but that is not my definition of ground fighting. I have even said hold downs, chokes, and joint locking techniques are the ground fighting techniques of okinawan karate. When did I exactly say rolling around on the floor was a part of okinawan karate? Or is this something you simply created in your mind?

Quote:

I happily accept that Karate does and always has contained some floor restraints.




Then what are you arguing with me about?

Quote:

There is no other reason than to get up safely and that doesn't need specific ground grappling training as such.




This statement proves you have never grappled against an experienced grappler that has any skill in holding a person down.

Quote:

You are confusing terms again Med. I'm not and have never disputed standing grappling in Karate. I'm not saying that some standing grappling cannot be used on the ground. I'm not even saying that standing grappling wasn't always practiced in Karate, I feel that it always was.
I also never said it was easy to stand, but there is no sense going to the ground unless you have back-up and you know for sure that that he doesn't. Otherwise you risk getting kicked in the head or worse.
What I am saying is that I don't think Okinawan wrestling involved specific ground grappling training (as in stuff you practice from both being on the floor).
Hence any wrestlers a medieval karateka would've faced would not likely be trying to hold him down and choke him, or if they were it is instinctive and not developed by training.
What I think the medieval grappler's would've been doing is throwing people to the floor and kicking them before they could get up.




I hate to break this to you, but an okinawan who was an expert in okinawan sumo, most likely practiced tegumi in his youth because he was an adolescent when tegumi was still practiced, and a historian of okinawa's grappling traditions disagrees with this statement. What other than pure speculation leads you to believe this?

Quote:

All that leaves us is the mysterious Tegumi, which seems to have evolved from a grappling/striking mix which was used on the battlefield. Now the Okinawans may have added ground submission and dropped the striking to make the sport (and it was a sport) more interesting and less dangerous. Thus it is conceivable that some such technique would've found it's way into Karate, but considering that one art is looked on as fun and the other as life and death I don't think it's very likely. And why did no one teach it any of this ground work in Karate's early days of expansion?
Why did no one older than Nagamine speak of it?
Why did Nagamine not include it's techniques in his book, or Motobu in his for that matter?




As far as Motobu I believe everytime he fought a legit okinawan grappling expert he got spanked. Due to this I would not expect him to mention much grappling.

Actually Hohan Soken was older than Nagamine and did speak of it.

And in karate's expansion the okinawans didn't teach much. They didn't even teach much application of technique. Why didn't they teach much of the many other things contained in karate?
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#386111 - 03/28/08 07:33 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: medulanet]
ThunderboltLotus Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 16
Loc: Cornwall, Great Britain
All - Make of this what you may

Like every other Okinawan boy, I spent many happy hours engaging in or watching Tegumi bouts, but it was after I had taken up Karate seriously that I came to realise that tegumi offers a unique opportunity for training, in that it need not be limited to two participants. One (usually, of course, an older stronger boy) may take on two or three opponents or as many he feels up to.
Such bouts begin with the lone wrestler lying down flat on his back, his opponents pinning down his arms and legs. Once I had determined to be a Karateka, I used to get four of five younger boys to wrestle with me…..now I cannot say how much tegumi actually contributed to my mastery of Karate, but I am certain it helped fortify my will.

Gichin Funakoshi 1868 – 1957 Karate-Do My Way of Life p.123/4
_________________________
Michael Powell

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#386112 - 03/28/08 08:38 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



So tell me, what is Ti? I've read probably like 100 threads on just that subjec tin the past 10 years or so and no one has been able to produce anything beyond some vague concepts, even the best reseachers like McCarthy seem don't seem to have exacting detail on it.





Here we go.

Ok Zach

Say little itsy bitsy me student and all can prove what ti was/ is? Including ground work. Admittedly my grappling skill arent high enough yet so I have to ask. I do posses some though. I saw the need some time ago.

Other things I research I dont know so I have to ask. But h I couldnt give a %%%%% about what scholers did or didint find. It is what I find. And guess what? This student has found stuff that will more or less back up everything Medulant has stated and what I thought in the first place.

When I do and say I publish my findings then it will have to be as near provable as I can get. Because the likes of you and others on here and else where will try to rip it to pieces.


And yes Sensie McCarthy does post on here so I am hardly going to post my research am I? Its a bit like sepia again.


Quote:


Far as scholars who can fight, what the hell kind of question is that? You gonna go beat em up because they haven't found groundfighting in kata or what?




So we are back to the silly stuff again.

Oh yes I nearly forgot. The silly statement about scholers that can or cant fight. How pray tell would someone who cant fight know what to look for? I am going to keep this cival.I have to ask on certain things and I have some expereince?
What is Joe Bloggs historian with none at all going to do?
Quote:



All this reminds of the "white crane" craze that started years ago, a bunch of tenous historical links (and that's being generous) and vague speculation combined with lots and lots of flavor of the month marketing terms seemed to obscure the actual valid research done in the area by Karate folks.




The white crane infleunce now that is getting interesting as well.Oh dear I havent realy trained in white crane.
But I can see connections to zan chin? I can see badly done wing chun? why is it badly done? Because the lineage got messed up?. Because I wouldnt use what some are trying to use? Perhaps the person teaching didnt complete their studies with Yip Man? Or is history wrong again?
And oh what else do I see? I observe lots.
Enought to know what I need to know and still learning.
Quote:


.
it would be easier to respond with specifics if you ever cited your sources for all the "research" and "studies" you constantly post about.





Easier for you perhaps?


Ti= fighting art.
Karate= the name given to fighting arts that ended up with a Japanese name

Medulant in the near future everything you have stated will be as near provable as can be made.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/28/08 09:09 AM)

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#386113 - 03/28/08 08:48 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Shonuff]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
I honestly think when I have all the proof needed I will publish a book. Every one of these arguments and counter arguments have/ are playing a roll in my research.

I am afraid most are missing the basics.
Medulant is correct.

Jude

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#386114 - 03/28/08 08:53 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: jude33]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Shut up jude. You can't even get his name right.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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