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#386075 - 03/15/08 07:57 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Zach_Zinn]
evad74 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Qld, Australia
I had a very limited experience with goju ryu befrore starting koryu uchinadi, mostly basics in line foramtion, kata (I had geikisai dai ichi down for blank repetition/little understanding, and could mostly follow alond with dai ni & saifa), and singular applications. I enjoyed it, but was never a fan of learning the movements of kata first, and then looking for the applications.

For myself, I've found 2 person drills (like the renzoku drills) a much faster and easier way to learn, giving a base understanding before learning the solo form. The flow of these drills, having to deal with reactions of others,different body types of partners, what comes next etc..has helped me remember singular applications better. While I agree there is only so much value in these drills, as a beginner they haved definately helped me become more adaptable in freestyle applications/sparring, and I suspect the same way more advanced karateka find kata an invaluable resource to look through for information, these types of 2 person drills(and the longer sets that follow) I find really easy to go over and cover a lot of ground in a short amount of time. A beginners opinion for what it's worth.

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#386076 - 03/17/08 12:16 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: evad74]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Actually, my teachers often seem to teach applciation/2 man drills before teaching the kata they came from; i've continued this somewhat in the small time i've been teaching.

These kind of bunkai drills aren't a substitute for the more "advanced" bunkai study and drills which tend to be alot less robotic and predictable.

P.S. Koryu Uchindai looks like great stuff!


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/17/08 12:17 AM)

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#386077 - 03/17/08 02:42 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Personally I am a big fan of systemised training. I think that all applications and training should come after learning the kata, as I feel the kata should provide the relevant level of balance and co-ordination for the student to competently apply the apps in basic before flow drills like those discussed refine those skills and give the student adaptability.
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#386078 - 03/26/08 01:24 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: ndj]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Suffice it to say that every karateka should know how to use their karate for grappling. There is no use learning BJJ or some other art - unless sport competition is your goal (or its just for cross-training purposes). Higaonna Sensei will proudly tell you that all of his grappling knowledge comes from karate kata.




Grappling and groundfighting are two different things.

As for the "Wrasslin in krotty" comment. That was medulanet paraphrasing what I said and trying to make hick references since I'm from Arkansas. Prejudice to say the least.

So, you are saying that Goju covers more grappling than BJJ? That's like saying BJJ covers more striking than Karate..quite a stretch.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#386079 - 03/26/08 01:28 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Unyu]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Unyu,

If you think you aren't doing something modern you are just fooling yourself. Fighting has progressed, you are just stuck on stupid and we can't fix that.
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#386080 - 03/26/08 02:45 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: BrianS]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



the refabrication of history to serve current justifications is B.S." Ed Morris








From my studies that is agreed. But what happens if history can be proven (as far as history can be proven) that certain things were there to begin with that have been thought to have been lost or forgotten?

Like grappling that had elements of ground fighting in the study of the origins of ti, and why Medulant with his back ground in wrestling can see elements of it in karate?

From my research it is slowly looking like Medulant was 100 percent correct.

Jude.

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#386081 - 03/26/08 02:50 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: jude33]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

From my studies that is agreed. But what happens if history can be proven (as far as history can be proven) that certain things were there to begin with that have been thought to have been lost or forgotten?

Like grappling that had elements of ground fighting in the study of the origins of ti, and why Medulant with his back ground in wrestling can see elements of it in karate?

From my research it is slowly looking like Medulant was 100 percent correct.

Jude.





Show me your supposed research.

How is it 100 percent correct? I haven't seen anything. I don't take people's word for it either, no matter how good their credentials may appear.

BTW, I usually overlook your insights jude.


Edited by BrianS (03/26/08 02:53 AM)
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#386082 - 03/26/08 11:32 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: BrianS]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:


.

.

BTW, I usually overlook your insights jude.




Fine by me. History can be quite revealing.
Seen as my insights arent worthy I shall leave you guys to your own devices.

Medulant for what it is worth the evidence of your statements is growing.

Jude

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#386083 - 03/26/08 11:52 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: jude33]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Jude33 hanging there don't let mean BS chase you away. Remember he is not suppose to agree with you thats why we have opinions. Me and BS rarely agree on things and we practice a like system somewhat, but thats just means he is a hard man not easily swayed by intelligent input.

By the way I'm with BS on this one but thats just my opinion and they are like a$$ holes everybody has one. But where were all these guys before the UFC/1991 and why were they not the Champions being that they were practicing it all along shouldn't they be like the Gracies.

Don't let him run you away.


Edited by Neko456 (03/26/08 11:54 AM)

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#386084 - 03/26/08 01:16 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Neko456]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Jude33 hanging there don't let mean BS chase you away. Remember he is not suppose to agree with you thats why we have opinions. Me and BS rarely agree on things and we practice a like system somewhat, but thats just means he is a hard man not easily swayed by intelligent input.

By the way I'm with BS on this one but thats just my opinion and they are like a$$ holes everybody has one. But where were all these guys before the UFC/1991 and why were they not the Champions being that they were practicing it all along shouldn't they be like the Gracies.

Don't let him run you away.




Hi Neko.

Not running away, Neko there is definite proof outside the art of ti/ karate practiced on okinawa which I am following.

Why it wasnt practiced? I think it was but was stopped at some time and what continued was in the main watered down for different reasons. Some might have carried on and it has come through Medulants lineage in a way. The problem I have is the groundwork part. The influences and the connections. I need more detailed information on kata, mutou, tegumi( I think they might have been different methods) and other forms of wrestling before I can make a connection to the origins of ti.

Ti as thought before the addition of kata
Maki-wari
Sagi Maki-wari. How many people have heard of this let alone trained it?
Kakie
Iri- Kumi
kicks, knee and hand techiques, clothes and flesh grips, throws and trips, locks, chokes and hard physical training.

In all physical positions found in unarmed combat.

Jude

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