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#386045 - 03/12/08 11:33 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: medulanet]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Zach-Zin I don't think he is ignoring you but Shotokan usually don't have standard Bunkais as in two man explaination of a kata, they do have one-two-three steps kumite for incidents. But that usually only testing a responce to these 1-2-3 strike attacks with an obvious offense start and defensive counter situation, not a flow within each counter. Mid to Long range assaults.


I question if the drills should be pressure tested to the point that it changes the flow of the drill too much, before the lessons learned w/o that how do you know how to apply it? Obvious once the drill has been learned its good for the Advance to alternate the sequence by introducing changes. But know the drill 1st anybody that train at home should adjust for changes once its learnt. And I'm sure thats where you are with this question.

Judo, Aikido and Jujitsu has two men throws that are required as you progress the purpose is to have develope effortless throws, locks, chokes and groundwork. Taking whats given. As you advance any measure to break the resistance is used even my what I like knee/kick to the grions r knee (pending the damage and position you want) to throw/lock/choke/strike.

We start with a flow lock from finger to shoulder, throw, then choke drills starting at 4th kyu - until, one of the purpose is of course if you teach a LEF or Security personnel you don't want them to beats someone down (but you teach strike within) the detainment procedure if need be. But it also introduce so that the students get an understanding of standing grappling/detainment. The purpose is to feel the resistance and flow into the next move.

The basic dojo bunkais teaches the flow of the kata, standing in range, flowing and exchanging, and the techniques applied within the kata movements. It is just a training/teaching method. There are other ways to teach the same lesson.


Edited by Neko456 (03/12/08 11:49 AM)
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#386046 - 03/12/08 01:05 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Neko456]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Zach-Zin I don't think he is ignoring you but Shotokan usually don't have standard Bunkais as in two man explaination of a kata, they do have one-two-three steps kumite for incidents. But that usually only testing a responce to these 1-2-3 strike attacks with an obvious offense start and defensive counter situation, not a flow within each counter. Mid to Long range assaults.







Hi Neko. I think its the other way around. Because I wouldnt tell him where hiki-te was in sepai he has used his ignore the user option.

Never mind. Not realy bothered.

I think after one year of sepai study, one of the things that comes to my mind is ;
One of the problems I find in analyzing kata might be that the skills that were used such as trapping etc dont seem to be used any more.

Or maybe a better way of putting it, I dont see many people using them. If the goal is competiton katate there is no point.

So have you or others on here covered such things as trapping drills taken from kata ?

Or perhaps trapping, like groundfighting/ wrestling was learned from an outside scource?

Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/12/08 01:08 PM)

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#386047 - 03/12/08 03:14 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Zach_Zinn]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Bascially a flow drill for the whole kata.

I learned the standard one's for Gekiha (don't do this one much anymore), Gekisai, we are now messing around with the Saifa one (I believe it was created by Seikichi Toguchi), and a Seisan drill of my teacher's. I've also seen a very nice one for Sepai my teacher created
(that's Sepia for Jude), but we don't actively practice that one yet, just "pieces" from the kata.

What do you guys think are the possible plusses and minuses of this kind of training?

Most people seem to equate it to yakusoku kumite (had a discussion on e-budo about it not to long ago), and their opinions good or bad seem to to stem from this.

For my own part i've found this kind of training to be extremely valuable as long as you keep mixing it up, changing the dynamics etc, alot of the time i've found students seem to get the most out of it if I take one to three movements from the drill, and focus on those in a more intense manner.

Here's some examples of this kind of training:

Koryu Uchinadi I think:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9-OlSjoJ4M

The standard Gekisai one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLG2YpNerYs

Never seen this one before, seems unique:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQeltFd_EKI

A Gekisai ground drill ( Ain't no wrasslin' in Krotty!!):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-l0lGbn4ks

One common theme in the discussion on the other forum which came up is that this kind of training decreases in value as skill increases, and that once one passes a point training in such a way might actually be detrimental.

Not sure if I agree fully, but I do think that in some ways the argument has merit.

As we train our skills should become less cookie cutter, and clearly we should be capable of thinking outside the box, even in terms of non-sparring drills. Also i should mention at least in my training the context of these drills was sort of as a "surface bunkai" that you can practice with a partner, i.e. the simple version of what could be in the kata.

Obviously this kind of thing is never a substitute for the more resistant practice, and arguably it has it's pitfalls.

So what is your opinion on this method of training?




I really don't believe the whole kata is meant to "flow" together in terms of self defense. How many times to you have to maim or kill someone?

That line of thinking fits well within the realm of multiple attackers from different directions,whhich is just bunk.

That method of training is counterproductive in my opinion.
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#386048 - 03/12/08 03:57 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: BrianS]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


I really don't believe the whole kata is meant to "flow" together in terms of self defense. How many times to you have to maim or kill someone?




I actually agreed with your sentiments when I first switched to training in Goju, now i'm not so sure, and believe it or not I've found these to be more useful than one would think.

What the Kata is "meant" to do is always a subject of debate, there is a school of thought that says that the Kata actually came from 2 man drills, whether they were pieces strung together or one long sequence I am sure no one knows.

To be clear, most Dojo I have seen (and certainly this is the case with my training) seem to teach shorter, more "direct" application as one advances in level, those are seperate from this kind of training, and more related to self defense, speaking strictly from my own experience.

The purpose of these drills isn't exactly directly related so "self defense"....they are supplementary excercises like alot of drills, something like Kote-Kitae (sp?) or Kakie doesn't relate directly to self defense either, but they have some uses. At any rate, these are distinctly different IMO than what I learned in terms of direct application.

Quote:


That line of thinking fits well within the realm of multiple attackers from different directions,whhich is just bunk.




Lol it has nothing to do with multiple attackers or any such thing, the purpose of doing a long string is to develop the ability to flow from attack to attack. These are not being presented as a "realistic" attack and defense anymore than those flow drills in stickfighting arts are meant to simulate a real fight, that is not the purpose.

Having been exposed to a few different "flavors" of this kind of drill, I do feel there are some that get so complex as to be counterproductive, and the fact is that as you say, the ultimate goal is to end a confrontation quickly.

Oddly, the ones that seem the best to me are the ones where there is not attack-counter attack going on, but rather you are just laying into in Uke as he tries to throw punches and do some basic actions.

I feel that as a supplement to other things they are great. And honestly I think they are miles above alot of the -stand in zenkutsu dachi then attack-"ippon kumite" style stuff.

Anyway thanks for the input guys, it's interesting to see other people's opinions on this.

On the subject, anyone have videos of something to compare and contrast?

Maybe some Shorin ryu yakusoku sets or something.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/12/08 04:08 PM)

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#386049 - 03/12/08 10:35 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Quote:


I really don't believe the whole kata is meant to "flow" together in terms of self defense. How many times to you have to maim or kill someone?





I feel that as a supplement to other things they are great. And honestly I think they are miles above alot of the -stand in zenkutsu dachi then attack-"ippon kumite" style stuff.



That is easy to state.
So do we get to see your training methods then?

Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/12/08 10:36 PM)

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#386050 - 03/13/08 01:05 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: jude33]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Dear sir: I have you on ignore, meaning I used the ignore function to block your posts.

I'm not going to respond to anything you say because I can't read it!

Go troll someone or somewhere else, you are wasting your time with me since I can no longer see what you write.

Cordially yours,

Non-white crane knowin', non-krotty wrasslin lovin, non-hikite understanding, non spelling Sepai wrong Zach.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/13/08 01:33 AM)

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#386051 - 03/13/08 04:32 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Thats fine by me.

Keep learning Zach.

No point in me competing with someone so highly trained in sports karate.

Childish but never mind.

I think the next communication might be when you post your teaching video.
Otherwise no point.

Jude

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#386052 - 03/13/08 08:17 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: jude33]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Quote:

Quote:

Zach-Zin I don't think he is ignoring you but Shotokan usually don't have standard Bunkais as in two man explaination of a kata, they do have one-two-three steps kumite for incidents. But that usually only testing a responce to these 1-2-3 strike attacks with an obvious offense start and defensive counter situation, not a flow within each counter. Mid to Long range assaults.







Hi Neko. I think its the other way around. Because I wouldnt tell him where hiki-te was in sepai he has used his ignore the user option.

Never mind. Not realy bothered.

I think after one year of sepai study, one of the things that comes to my mind is ;
One of the problems I find in analyzing kata might be that the skills that were used such as trapping etc dont seem to be used any more.

Or maybe a better way of putting it, I dont see many people using them. If the goal is competiton katate there is no point.

So have you or others on here covered such things as trapping drills taken from kata ?

Or perhaps trapping, like groundfighting/ wrestling was learned from an outside scource?

Jude




Kata are full of trapping/grappling/disbalancing/throwing/takedowns/locking/... etc as support to the ultimate end. Hit the opponents lights out or throw him so that he lands on his head first.
Almost any application I have learned from kata, transformed into yakusoku kumite will end in a strike or kick take out the opponent.
Locking/trapping/breaking... is imo not a goal on itself in karate.
However there are some cases where only a throw or braking technique was learned from a kata technique without a finishing strike or kick. It was considered that the technique was in itself enough to end the conflict.

But not all drills have the purpose to learn how to take out an opponent. Some yakusoku kumite have other goals like endurance training or learning how to execute a certain technique. These are usually not directly from kata application but support karate training.
Their goal is not SD but technical.

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#386053 - 03/13/08 10:45 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: CVV]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539


Quote:



Hi Neko. I think its the other way around. Because I wouldnt tell him where hiki-te was in sepai he has used his ignore the user option.

Never mind. Not realy bothered.

I think after one year of sepai study, one of the things that comes to my mind is ;
One of the problems I find in analyzing kata might be that the skills that were used such as trapping etc dont seem to be used any more.

Or maybe a better way of putting it, I dont see many people using them. If the goal is competiton katate there is no point.

So have you or others on here covered such things as trapping drills taken from kata ?

Or perhaps trapping, like groundfighting/ wrestling was learned from an outside scource?

Jude




Kata are full of trapping/grappling/disbalancing/throwing/takedowns/locking/... etc as support to the ultimate end. Hit the opponents lights out or throw him so that he lands on his head first.
Almost any application I have learned from kata, transformed into yakusoku kumite will end in a strike or kick take out the opponent.
Locking/trapping/breaking... is imo not a goal on itself in karate.
However there are some cases where only a throw or braking technique was learned from a kata technique without a finishing strike or kick. It was considered that the technique was in itself enough to end the conflict.

Their goal is not SD but technical.




Hi CVV.
Yes that was my assumption. At the moment I have been looking for some correctly thought out trapping/ disbalancing drills using the core kata.
It is something I will at some time drill. And I think as you so correctly stated although it is a drill, it is to help to reach the end goal.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/13/08 10:47 AM)

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#386054 - 03/14/08 12:01 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: jude33]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Quote:



Quote:



Hi Neko. I think its the other way around. Because I wouldnt tell him where hiki-te was in sepai he has used his ignore the user option.

Never mind. Not realy bothered.

I think after one year of sepai study, one of the things that comes to my mind is ;
One of the problems I find in analyzing kata might be that the skills that were used such as trapping etc dont seem to be used any more.

Or maybe a better way of putting it, I dont see many people using them. If the goal is competiton katate there is no point.

So have you or others on here covered such things as trapping drills taken from kata ?

Or perhaps trapping, like groundfighting/ wrestling was learned from an outside scource?

Jude




Kata are full of trapping/grappling/disbalancing/throwing/takedowns/locking/... etc as support to the ultimate end. Hit the opponents lights out or throw him so that he lands on his head first.
Almost any application I have learned from kata, transformed into yakusoku kumite will end in a strike or kick take out the opponent.
Locking/trapping/breaking... is imo not a goal on itself in karate.
However there are some cases where only a throw or braking technique was learned from a kata technique without a finishing strike or kick. It was considered that the technique was in itself enough to end the conflict.

Their goal is not SD but technical.




Hi CVV.
Yes that was my assumption. At the moment I have been looking for some correctly thought out trapping/ disbalancing drills using the core kata.
It is something I will at some time drill. And I think as you so correctly stated although it is a drill, it is to help to reach the end goal.

Jude




Agree the idea is to teach the lesson in the kata, not product a fight scene. The movement is like fighting another skilled fighter there's going to be some exchanges. Relating this feeling to dojo encounters you stay on them until you break there defense. It's is more like Jude33 mentioned its a technical lesson not a rehearsed fight.

B.S stated that the training is counter productive...

Each to there own, might be that Goju-kia nor USA Goju train them, if we all thought alike there be no reason for a forum like this. Learning has a lot to do with admitting you didn't know. By the way I know I can't spell when I'm speed typing, without my spellchecker. But you got be mean some thing to me, for me to use that.

By the way Jude33 there are others that enjoy your Threads and replies. Me included. Keep pluging away that two down and hundreds to go. I don't see why they find you so irritable is this a trait of yours? You gotta be good at somethings Karate and getting on people ig list, thanks for Joining me.
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