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#386035 - 03/11/08 09:12 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: harlan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
not as a replacement, but these drills along with one-step kumite-like drills can be used as a stepping stone towards drills with increasingly less pre-arraingement. I only meant that if someone has no intention of passing these long prearrainged sets on, then they can 'get and forget' and move on without missing out.


long pre-arrainged sets seem more demonstrational than as learning material to me. The danger of only doing these indefinitely, would be recalling what you remember comes next as oppossed to reacting to what the opponent is doing.

freesparring also has it's limitations, since delivering a palm strike, forearm or elbow for instance with any kind of force would comprimise safety. But structured sparring can get the striking, guarding, grappling and takedown aspects reasonably safe....without having to rely on pre-arraingement as the built-in safety mechanism.

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#386036 - 03/11/08 11:16 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Ed_Morris]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Quote:

A Gekisai ground drill ( Ain't no wrasslin' in Krotty!!):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-l0lGbn4ks




thats a first: pre-arrainged ground grappling?

I look at these drills and the examples above as mostly for demonstration. Although they can help to build some fundamental skills, timing, distance, flow, etc. but (I believe) if worked on exclusively, they create more bad habits than good ones.

I guess my verdict is that they are disposable past basics unless you plan to teach them as supplimentary to early-on learning....in which case you keep them, in order to pass it on.




This was the basic consensus on e-budo as well.

I think that like any drill they have their strengths and weaknesses, definitely in my own training they were used up to a point, and later on we were moved to more "open" drills.

The other thing to keep in mind about these is that you can do whatever you want with them (if you are using them as a teaching tool), they aren't set in stone, so as students advance you can always throw them for a loop.

Anyway for the (relatively short) time i've been running a class i've found these to be great for instilling good fundamentals and getting people prepared for things that might involve more chaotic contact. They are also a good "intro to bunkai" course possibly. Time will tell I guess in terms of possible bad habits they create lol.

I have no comment really about the ground grappling drill, I just threw it in there because it looked interesting.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/11/08 11:17 AM)

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#386037 - 03/11/08 01:41 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
I once read a book about a student of Shinkage ryu kenjutsu. He stated that all kata were practiced solo and in partnership but that as he progressed sensei would deviate from the pre-arranged sequence and then come back into it smoothly and he would be able to follow?

Perhaps the teacher mearly snipped in sequences remembered from other kata, or perhaps the style constituted a few set responses which allowed for such deviation, or perhaps the guy was just that good???

Does anyone know of someone who is the product of these kind of drills alone? I have a feeling that if an appropriately graduated series of drills were crafted for a small enuogh system they may prove quite useful as a path of developing certain responses.
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#386038 - 03/11/08 01:44 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I believe pre-arrange sparring has its purpose it corridinates moves and counters to whats going in the kata. It shows the real fighting range of real fights sometimes, so its not jump in (from kicking range head low can't see the opponent) score a point and jump back parading around. It's hurt the guy finish him if he can't counter. Its hard to see this purpose with no one being awarded anything.

But it does serve a purpose I felt it when you start continous sparring were you stay in on the guy until takedown/sweep ect...

Its a way of sharping your reflexes and thinking one step ahead counters other then the ones that taught because if you try them against a dojomate he already knows the counter.

By the way the grappling Bunkia was not of Gakisai ichi it might be of Seuichin and Sepia or Sanseri but not Gakisai sho is more angles and cannon punching.

As mentioned its a good building block for eventually full range free sparring at least you will be slightly comfortable with in-coming at that range.


Edited by Neko456 (03/11/08 01:52 PM)

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#386039 - 03/11/08 02:07 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Neko456]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

By the way the grappling Bunkia was not of Gakisai ichi it might be of Seuichin and Sepia or Sanseri but not Gakisai sho is more angles and cannon punching.



Thanks for murdering the terms.

bunkai
Gekisai
Seiunchin
Sepai
Sanseiru

although the useful part when people insist on guessing and not learning the spelling of terms, is that their posts won't come up in searches on the subject. sortof a natural selection filter.

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#386040 - 03/11/08 02:42 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Quote:

A Gekisai ground drill ( Ain't no wrasslin' in Krotty!!):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-l0lGbn4ks




thats a first: pre-arrainged ground grappling?

I look at these drills and the examples above as mostly for demonstration. Although they can help to build some fundamental skills, timing, distance, flow, etc. but (I believe) if worked on exclusively, they create more bad habits than good ones.

I guess my verdict is that they are disposable past basics unless you plan to teach them as supplimentary to early-on learning....in which case you keep them, in order to pass it on.




Actually Ed, drills are a very important part of grappling training, just like they are in striking training. In addition, I have seen similar BJJ grappling demos that were prearranged. I think the main problem with this demo as opposed to some of the BJJ demos I have seen is this one has obviously never been pressure tested against a skilled grappler. I think it would look very different if it had. This demo is based on theory rather than acutal realistic practice. Where as BJJ demos are the other way around. They are based on practice and an understanding of what works rather than what they think might work.
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#386041 - 03/11/08 03:20 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-l0lGbn4ks





Very similar to technique practice in American Kenpo, or flow drills in JKD.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#386042 - 03/11/08 03:50 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
I think really this kind of training is best the more you muss' it up and vary it in terms of intenstiy, intent etc.

Obviously it's bad if you end up just being robotic, and I have noticed that can happen if people get too fixated on the pattern aspect of the drills.

If I ever get un-lazy enough I'll get some kind of camera and possibly post a drill we do.

If anyone has seen it, the Saifa drill in Okinawan Goju Ryu II by Seikichi Toguchi is the one we've been working lately, it is a pretty cool drill, but looks silly in the book because the guys are just posing rather than doing the drill.

It is very different from the other application i've learned from Saifa, but it is still a cool drill.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/11/08 03:55 PM)

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#386043 - 03/12/08 04:21 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:




If I ever get un-lazy enough I'll get some kind of camera and possibly post a drill we do.






I hope that might be soon,
Video would be perhaps better.


Jude

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#386044 - 03/12/08 11:01 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: jude33]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Jude, all I can see in your posts is ***you are ignoring this user***. Take the hint and talk to someone else lol.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/12/08 11:02 AM)

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