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#386125 - 03/28/08 11:38 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Quote:

Med, everyone knows there's techniques in kata that may put you on the floor, where I think the disagreement lies is in the assumption (tell me if this isn't what you're saying) that standing kata includes grappling on the ground for dominant position, or includes actual mnemonics for things like juji-gatame on the ground, knowing how to do some armbar standing doesn't imply neccessarily that the skills will naturally transfer in the horizontal world.




No, you don't have it right. Karate grappling is not about grappling for a dominant position from top. You either hit your opponent, break his limbs, or you stand up and hit him. From the bottom you don't grapple for a dominant position on the ground. You grapple to stand up.




Edited because i'm done with the discussion for now, I think everyone has made their points and we are not going to agree, and I feel like this will never end lol.

Anyway good luck in however you decide to train, can someone please post something about renzoku drills or some such though, so we can stop talking about groundfighting in kata?

I swear that has been 80% of the conversations in this forum since i've been using it.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/28/08 11:45 PM)

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#386126 - 03/28/08 11:45 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

I agree with what you are saying above strategically, but I feel like you've shifted gears a bit from your defnition of "grappling" so far in the discussion.





Okay Zach, why don't you give me the definition I gave for grappling.
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#386127 - 03/28/08 11:47 PM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Quote:

I agree with what you are saying above strategically, but I feel like you've shifted gears a bit from your defnition of "grappling" so far in the discussion.





Okay Zach, why don't you give me the definition I gave for grappling.




Bah you respond too quickly, see above i'm tired of arguing with you, it's going nowhere, have fun.

For my part I think you've been reasonable, we just disagree on certain things.

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#386128 - 03/29/08 12:55 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: Zach_Zinn]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I agree with what you are saying above strategically, but I feel like you've shifted gears a bit from your defnition of "grappling" so far in the discussion.





Okay Zach, why don't you give me the definition I gave for grappling.




Bah you respond too quickly, see above i'm tired of arguing with you, it's going nowhere, have fun.

For my part I think you've been reasonable, we just disagree on certain things.




Ditto.
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#386129 - 03/29/08 07:39 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo *DELETED* [Re: Shonuff]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Post deleted by jude33

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#386130 - 03/29/08 07:52 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: jude33]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



Interesting but did you study wrestling and groundwork in your Karate curriculum I'm assuming you didn't. And thats the point we are making not that groundfighting didn't exist in Okinawa but it is not past down through Karate's Kata system.







Hi, Neko , You have again made valid points for further research, great when we all communicate because I think everybody learns from each other.




Shonuff

Im glad you posted this. Good find .


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEU1fGu0Vog

0.45 on the video when the guy is sitting on top and pounding.

That is my term for what he is doing.
( Mounted position in BJJ terms)
(If brian needs the judo term because he doesnt know the bjj term I can post it)
(Have to ask Medulant for the wrestling term.) )


Ok, I am refering to one of the escapes from that position that brings a person back to their feet.

I agree in karate it would be aimed at getting to the feet.

I think the mechanics of this series of moves ( I am refering to one method that I practice (its found in BJJ and more than likely other arts) and I have had some succss with if done quickly and effectively) might have been put in to standing kata .

One of the important parts of the seriouse of moves are turning the body in the correct direction in regards to what the opponent is doing.

The last part of the moves could be practiced standing as well kneeling and lying prone.

Any how I am looking for the mechanics of that method in kata. When I find them I will post the whole thing.
Speaking of drills the method could be broken down practiced in parts as a drill.

Jude refusin to shut up about wrasslin in kata.


Edited by jude33 (03/29/08 08:10 AM)

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#386131 - 03/29/08 09:10 AM Re: Renzoku drills/Bunkai Oyo [Re: jude33]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Jude,

That sounds like an interesting line of reasoning, why don't you describe, or better yet post a vid of the technique you are talking about, some of us may start seeing where youguys are coming from then?

Med,

Do you have or have you seen any vids of the kind of techniques or method you're talking about that aims to stand from the ground? I think that would be very helpful.

I think much confusion has come into this because through this discussion you have talked about chokes and locks and submission fighting (in terms of Tegumi) and why those skills would be helpful, not so much about standing up.

If you'd said from the beginning "Karate's grappling centres around techniques specifically for standing someone up whose been taken down" opposition may have been less fierce. Maybe you did say it, but it certainly wasn't what most of your posts communicated, whether you intended it or not.

Personally I am still dubious (as is my right), mostly for the many reasons stated in my last post. I would love to see examples of the kind of technique/method you are talking about, but at this point I think we have enough common ground and enough good reasons of our own to agree to disagree.

Good discussion.
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