first off, chill out.
As I see it the disagreement we have is that you feel ground grappling principles are contained within kata, and within the tradition of Karate training. I do not.
I see ground grappling as a seperate entity which may or may not have been practiced as an aspect of Okinawan wrestling.
Floor restraints, and generally the kind of techniques and principles I see as being present within Karate kata are illustrated thus:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEU1fGu0Vog
Ground grappling (aka rolling around on the floor) I see as this:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6mMtHqXyYc
I don't feel the latter fighting method was systemised on Okinawa (I'm not even convinced it was practiced) because:
Most wrestling competitions that I've seen get stood up after a short time on the floor.
The historic ancestor style of Tegumi seems not to have had or needed ground techniques.
I've not seen anything that convinces me that Tegumi was any different.
The very fact that Okinawans had the tegumi tradition and that everyone took part in it means to me that there is no need to include it in the kata or the training regimen of Karate as everyone is doing it anyway. Why waste time doing tegumi in a karate class when I do tegumi on on the other days of the week.
I feel that tegumi was not transposed into Karate.
I feel this way because while I can find old black and white pics of throws, joint locks and floor restraints done by karateka of the past, I can't find anything that looks like what goes on in the second vid.
I know from experience that skill in the first does not lead to skill in the second.
Even though many of the principles are the same or similar when standing I feel that the techniques in ground work and the mechanics of movement and the skills and points to be aware of are different enough to warrant completely seperate practice. Since I don't see any kata or kihon done from the back or the knees (defenses to standing attackers while in seiza don't count Jude) in any of the Karate I've seen I am not convinced of its inclusion.
I see no reason to include ground techniques in a self defense art because I see it as an impractical method for self defense and I feel that the skills of standing grappling (which I do feel are necessary) are sufficient to facilitate avoidance or escape.
Now if you believe different Med that is cool and I would like to know your reasoning.
The impression I get is that because Nagamine mentioned that he learned Tegumi and used the phrase karate wrestling, and you hold different views as to it's practicality you are convinced of it's inclusion in Karate kata and training.
Is this a fair assesment?
If my definition of ground grappling is different to yours then please let me know. A vid of what you mean would be a good aid.
On a side note, Tegumi sounds to me like Judo (I know Judo has ground techniques), yet the Okinawans still took Judo into their schools. Does anyone know of technical differences between the two, or would it have just been the systematic nature of Judo teaching that made it popular?