Interesting but did you study wrestling and groundwork in your Karate curriculum I'm assuming you didn't. And thats the point we are making not that groundfighting didn't exist in Okinawa but it is not past down through Karate's Kata system.

There is little doubt that Chin na influenced Karate as it is almost a part of every Kung-fu system. And so Karate's kata does have standing, kneeling grappling and pound and ground aspects but not both people on the ground pining, submission, capturing techniques in Kata.

Get him Jude33 don't let him bully you , I like setting up fights I mean debates. Don't shut up then he wins, bad BS bad dog. Sickem Jude33!!

Med,

first off, chill out.

As I see it the disagreement we have is that you feel ground grappling principles are contained within kata, and within the tradition of Karate training. I do not.

I see ground grappling as a seperate entity which may or may not have been practiced as an aspect of Okinawan wrestling.

Floor restraints, and generally the kind of techniques and principles I see as being present within Karate kata are illustrated thus:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEU1fGu0Vog

Ground grappling (aka rolling around on the floor) I see as this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6mMtHqXyYc

I don't feel the latter fighting method was systemised on Okinawa (I'm not even convinced it was practiced) because:
Most wrestling competitions that I've seen get stood up after a short time on the floor.
The historic ancestor style of Tegumi seems not to have had or needed ground techniques.
I've not seen anything that convinces me that Tegumi was any different.
The very fact that Okinawans had the tegumi tradition and that everyone took part in it means to me that there is no need to include it in the kata or the training regimen of Karate as everyone is doing it anyway. Why waste time doing tegumi in a karate class when I do tegumi on on the other days of the week.

I feel that tegumi was not transposed into Karate.
I feel this way because while I can find old black and white pics of throws, joint locks and floor restraints done by karateka of the past, I can't find anything that looks like what goes on in the second vid.
I know from experience that skill in the first does not lead to skill in the second.
Even though many of the principles are the same or similar when standing I feel that the techniques in ground work and the mechanics of movement and the skills and points to be aware of are different enough to warrant completely seperate practice. Since I don't see any kata or kihon done from the back or the knees (defenses to standing attackers while in seiza don't count Jude) in any of the Karate I've seen I am not convinced of its inclusion.
I see no reason to include ground techniques in a self defense art because I see it as an impractical method for self defense and I feel that the skills of standing grappling (which I do feel are necessary) are sufficient to facilitate avoidance or escape.

Now if you believe different Med that is cool and I would like to know your reasoning.
The impression I get is that because Nagamine mentioned that he learned Tegumi and used the phrase karate wrestling, and you hold different views as to it's practicality you are convinced of it's inclusion in Karate kata and training.
Is this a fair assesment?

If my definition of ground grappling is different to yours then please let me know. A vid of what you mean would be a good aid.

On a side note, Tegumi sounds to me like Judo (I know Judo has ground techniques), yet the Okinawans still took Judo into their schools. Does anyone know of technical differences between the two, or would it have just been the systematic nature of Judo teaching that made it popular?

I agree with Shonuff on this, they exist but in different realms a part of but not a part of. They are a part because of wrestling being a common seperate traditional and culture event.
They are not trained together because they are not apart of the same formal set of kata trained. The Wrestling was almost a misnomer because it was so common that it didn't need to be mentioned or set in Kata or existed before kata.

Shonuff has in specific detail shown how we non ground fighting in the katas see it. I don't see how it can be proven unless you train and do kata with rolling in it as in Silat and Pankration or like Judo not in kata but a section of training writen and acknowledge as a tradition it's there for all to see. Not a spectulation.

To the Pro Ground fighting group much reknown Master Pat McCarthy agrees with you but not before 1991 he didn't,I'm assuming.

But my eyes don't lie to me. I see what I see. This is JMO. I may be too close to see it or to stuborn.

Actually it appears you have no idea what I am talking about when it comes to ground fighting in karate/kata. You showed a video of a guy who's primary strategy was to take his opponent down. I have stated many times that the primary stragety of karate is striking.

So, where does the ground fighting come in? Well, a few ways really. First off if you are getting beat down in the striking department and cannot escape. Second if you have entered into close range fighting and damaged you opponent with strikes then it is time to put him down (if he has not already fallen). In these senarios you put him down with a throw or takedown in order to obtain a knee ride and hit him so he won't get back up. If he tries to entangle your arms utilize an arm bar or shoulder lock (not the kind where you are lying on the ground with him, but where you are either standing above or kneeling on your opponent). Use these to break a joint or open up things like kicks, stomps, or strikes to the downed opponent. Now, there may be a time where you may need to hold the opponent in place, either when on top or while on bottom. This is accomplished with the stacked hands position. Remember, this position is one of the dead givaways in kata that mucho grappling is occuring. It is simply an underhook with the other hand behind the neck of your opponent. This is used in ALL positions. For many different grappling applications. Now, if you get taken down by an opponent you use underhooks in all positions to work to your feet except if the opponent has not passed your legs. In karate hooking under the arm and controlling the head is used for control in a variety of situations. In the case where the opponent has not passed your legs you hand fight until you get control of the hands/wrists until you can scoot your hips out to get up. That is where all of the wrist locks, releases, and such come into play. I have always heard people ask when an attacker will actually grab your wrists. Its not standing when the are trying to punch you or grab you. It is usually on the ground. Shifting and switching of the hips, crossing of the legs, etc. is all good training to develop strength and dexterity so you can manuveur in all situations. Shorin Ryu karate is about motion. The motion does not stop if you hit the ground. You have to be able to move in all situations.

Med, everyone knows there's techniques in kata that may put you on the floor, where I think the disagreement lies is in the assumption (tell me if this isn't what you're saying) that standing kata includes grappling on the ground for dominant position, or includes actual mnemonics for things like juji-gatame on the ground, knowing how to do some armbar standing doesn't imply neccessarily that the skills will naturally transfer in the horizontal world.

I personally feel that within (Goju kata at least) it seems there are plenty of throws and takedowns which maybe imply ending up in mount or side control if neccessary, but there is nothing there about the tactical game you need to learn for actual control on the ground. You simply have to learn that somewhere else, like they did with Tegumi, like you did with wrestling, like many do with Judo or BJJ.

That's really the bottom line, like any training method Kata has it's limits and I think grappling (and I mean specifically rolling around scrambling for dominant position) is not really addressed in it.

P.S. To Jude, none of that made any sense, so i'm not gonna bother with specifics. Just let us know when your awesome work of research on the lost arts of the Ryukyus is finished. I'm sure it will be an extensively detailed, well researched bit of scholarship lauded for it's exacting standards of detail and extensive bibliography, much like your posts. Furthermore i'm sure the Karate community will be taken by storm by the fact that a humble, reserved, still-learning, forum-dwelling student has turned all the past research into the history of Karate on it's head.

jood33,

Prove it or just keep quiet.

"medulant is right." lol

dir!!

Are you EVER going to show us where groundfighting applications are found in kata pre 1991? Are you EVER going to answer what those groundfighting techniques are and where they are?

Ofcourse you have stated that naihanchi crossing legs id a closed guard,lol.