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#384194 - 03/07/08 06:13 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: shoshinkan]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Exactly Jim, it is prolonged in those arenas not due to the fact that it is ground grappling, but because it is a sport and people fight with different strategy than in a self/life preservation situation. Just look at how wearing a gi changes how people grapple. Then add strikes and they grapple differently. Add other factors and their grappling will change yet again. There are only so many techniques people can use to hold, choke, or lock a person, however, depending on the situation there are several variation on single themes. To believe there are is no overlap is naive. And to believe that the okinawans had no techniques to deal with holding, choking, and locking anyone in a self/life preservation art shows little confidence in them as well.
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#384195 - 03/07/08 06:30 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

I have a general question about karate and cross training to anyone who cares to answer. It seems that many people believe if you train grappling outside of a "karate" setting, then some the technqiues you develop and explore there cannot be a part of your karate/kata syllabus. Is this true.




It can be part of your own syllabus as it is a part of ours. It's called integrating, we integrate groundfighting into our goju. We do not claim that it was there in the kata bunkai all along and we are now just seeing it.

Quote:

In the same respect what about someone who trains the striking aspect of their karate with boxers in a kick boxing gym. Can that not be a part of karate either.




Striking is already a part of karate. Boxing and kickboxing is only a different way to go about it.

Quote:

I personally feel that "cross training" in MAs is simply the "hip" thing to label people's practices as if their scope falls outside of what people traditionally define them as. I think people truly have issues if they are unable to define what others do/are rather than letting them simply be who they are and do what they do.




It's just dishonest. I can let people be dishonest if they want to I guess.

Quote:




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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#384196 - 03/07/08 06:35 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Exactly Jim, it is prolonged in those arenas not due to the fact that it is ground grappling, but because it is a sport and people fight with different strategy than in a self/life preservation situation. Just look at how wearing a gi changes how people grapple. Then add strikes and they grapple differently. Add other factors and their grappling will change yet again. There are only so many techniques people can use to hold, choke, or lock a person, however, depending on the situation there are several variation on single themes. To believe there are is no overlap is naive. And to believe that the okinawans had no techniques to deal with holding, choking, and locking anyone in a self/life preservation art shows little confidence in them as well.




Again, you are twisting things around. To assume that is not naive, those who do karate know there is grappling involved,but not groundfighting. I'm not saying they could not defend themselves on the ground,but they certainly didn't integrate it into their bunkai.
1. shiko dachi is not a sprawl
2. sanchin kata in not done on the back and it is not pulling guard.
3. a zenkutsu dachi is not a sprawl
4. There are no RNC's in kata


Please show me some karate guys demonstrating groundfighting pre 1990.
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#384197 - 03/07/08 06:43 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: jude33]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


Zach, You tend to formalate an opinion based on assumptions.
I think kata has a wealth of techniques. I dont know them yet but meanwhile I will have to do grappling with grapplers.




I tend to make assumptions?? Lol if that's not the pot calling the kettle black. Most of the opinions you post are completely out of left field dude, and you rarely if ever have facts to back up what you say, just your own very loose conjecture about Karate and it's history.

Quote:


I stated some time ago I started working with grapplers, etc etc etc.





And i've noticed you never say what you actually train in, or who with, just "some grapplers"....so i'll take that with a grain of salt thanks. Who are you grappling? Highscool wrestlers? Judoka? MMA guys?

Quote:


Zach it seems to me you are stuck with an idea and your getting left way, way behind.
I dont believe that for one minute karate is as basic as you say.
You might wish/ hope for that kind of encounter in a self defence scenario.





Well thanks for the concern Jude, but as I mentioned I actually have done some crosstraining, and I train with some reputable guys, not gonna drop names in the thread, but you don't need to worry about me getting "left behind". Moreover, I'm actually public about who I train with, and what I train in; instead of making vague allusions to training with nameless grapplers.

Wanna keep going on the ad hominems, or shall we leave it at that?

Quote:


Ian aberneathy, trains judo on a regualr basis with some top judo guys, seminars with some top grapplers and other martial artists. He is also a 5th dan in the same organisation as Geoff Thompson and Peter Constantine?
and would you believe they train to fight from all positions?





Sure, however as Abernethy states in his books, basic pressure tested grappling skills are what's neccessary in Karate, when you go beyond this it is effectively crosstraining, and something beyond the realm of Karate specifically, Abernethy actually states stuff like this in the forward of his book "Karate's grappling Methods" I believe. Do you want me to find and quote it? I'd be glad to, the book is right on my bookshelf.

BTW the whole thing about Jujutsu and Okinawan Sumo sounds iffy to me, can you please cite references if you're gonna throw around stuff like this?

Honestly guys, to me it's a simple as this:

Karate is not Judo or Jujutsu

They may share common techniques but they have a very different strategy, and those techniques occupy a different place in their respective curriculums. I'm not de-valuing crosstraining at all, in fact I think it's well worth people's time (mine included) to do so.

However it's also important to know the context (not just the content) of your main art.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/07/08 07:08 PM)

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#384198 - 03/07/08 06:50 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

I have a general question about karate and cross training to anyone who cares to answer. It seems that many people believe if you train grappling outside of a "karate" setting, then some the technqiues you develop and explore there cannot be a part of your karate/kata syllabus. Is this true. In the same respect what about someone who trains the striking aspect of their karate with boxers in a kick boxing gym. Can that not be a part of karate either. If there are people who feel this way about either the striking or grappling aspects of karate training, then I assume the same can be said about someone who seeks do deepen their understanding of karate by training with a White Crane Gung Fu Sifu.

I personally feel that "cross training" in MAs is simply the "hip" thing to label people's practices as if their scope falls outside of what people traditionally define them as. I think people truly have issues if they are unable to define what others do/are rather than letting them simply be who they are and do what they do.




For my part Med, that's not what i'm trying to do, I do think however it's important to look at what the overall strategy of Karate is, and to my mind that includes pretty minimal groundfighting, obviously I don't expect anyone to agree with me.

We are afterall just guys on a forum, with something like MA when we can't meet and actually train together a big part of the equation is removed, but seriously, I'm not trying to say someone's Karate is not Karate due to inclusion of grappling, i'm simply playing devil's advocate because grappling in Karate is such an over-hip thing today.

There is also some really terrible stuff out there under the guise of "grappling bunkai", as well as some good stuff.

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#384199 - 03/07/08 06:54 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Its like this Brian there are two different conversations you can have regarding this topic.

Conversation 1:

What are you doing?

Karate.

What's with all the grappling?

Well, the okinawans trained in their own form of grappling. And the skill they developed from that allowed effective application of techniques and principles from kata. Much like strength and speed training.

That's interesting. Where did you learn that.

Well, my teacher taught me the principles contained within the kata, and I wrestled 4 years in high school and do some submission grappling when I can. I see a lot of overlap in my experience and I try to focus on those techniques I can draw straight from my kata.

Not the way I do it, but sounds interesting.

Conversation 2:

What are you doing?

Karate.

What's with all that wrasslin?

Well, the okinawans trained in their own form of grappling. And the skill they developed from that allowed effective application of techniques and principles from kata. Much like strength and speed training.

Nu Uh, Krotty ain't got no wrasslin in it.

Well the okinawans did train grappling and....

Oh so you do that cross training stuff, I seen that on Spike in the U-F-C.

Well, its not anymore cross training than lifting weights or running is. Actually there are books written by okinawans that talk a little bit about grappling as it relates to okinawan culture and its use as a prerequisite for classical okinawan training.

Wait a minute. You mean you practice kata on your back to train wrasslin? What in tarnation is that about? I never heard anything about no karate man doing no wrasslin.

Well, since grappling skill was a part of the okinawan culture it was usually assumed you had some sort of grappling skill and ....

Hold on there. You just makin this stuff up cause you think you better than us. Anyone that ever says they know something my Sensei ain't never taught me and my friends ain't never heard of must think they smarter than me. Boy, there ain't no way no wrasslin is a part of karate. I seen the videos on youtube. I never seen one of those there okinawas get on the ground like Matt Hughes on Spike TV.

Yeah, well, its not exactly like that. For example karate techniques are more like postures that have many uses than a set in stone....

Look here. I don't want to here no more from your cross training, no karate knowing, internet typing, a**. I know what karate is all about. And wrasslin and karate ain't nothing that no one in no island with no okinawas ever knew about.

It seems like we are always destined relate like the former rather than the latter. Not literally, but my humorus take on it.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#384200 - 03/07/08 07:41 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Very entertaining.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#384201 - 03/07/08 08:15 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Lol I have to admit that was pretty funny, humor is good in contentious debates!

"Nu Uh, Krotty ain't got no wrasslin in it." ---LMAO


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/07/08 08:17 PM)

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#384202 - 03/07/08 08:38 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
'To believe there are is no overlap is naive. And to believe that the okinawans had no techniques to deal with holding, choking, and locking anyone in a self/life preservation art shows little confidence in them as well.'

yes I agree, and I don't recall ever saying that or something similair?
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#384203 - 03/07/08 09:45 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I'm thinking any martial art blends with Karate. question is, did you draw those lessons from kata or did you first learn the lessons elsewhere, then 'see' them in kata later, then claim you need kata to learn that skill (the skills obtained separate from kata).

There is nothing wrong with blending. I don't think Brian is saying that. It's the wording used by many that seeks to credit kata practice for their BJJ skills which they learned quite separately.
It's a debate of semantics. but I understand where the annoyance comes from.

A person could say: Yes, I train Goju and BJJ and I enjoy both arts which I feel fills each others gaps.

-OR-

the same person could say: Goju has had EVERYTHING you'll ever need for stand-up and ground fighting and it's been developed over centuries. (meanwhile the person doesn't mention or downplays the BJJ crosstraining they do or have done).

people attribute all of their collective skill to the art they currently train or the art they've decided to become sold on....I guess it's human nature.

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