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#384164 - 03/05/08 06:47 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
"Be carefull of the tongue. It tends to come out of the mouth." ok, i gotta ask...what?
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its not supposed to make sense

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#384165 - 03/05/08 06:53 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: BrianS]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
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Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
here, here. i was about to forget my name.....
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#384166 - 03/05/08 07:13 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: jude33]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


This should be above.
Just a small point. Punches, forarm strikes, palm strikes etc are found in kata while performed standing. They are also used on the deck. Conditioning the limbs is also done standing but the result is applied on the deck, groundwork.

Jude






None of that is what i'd consider groundwork in the proper sense, obviously mounting someone and punching him could be said to be implicit in some techniques though.

However I stand by my feelings that the philosophy of Karate is short paced (and mostly percussive) exhanges intended to break your opponent, not passing the guard or setting up juji gatame. Whatever groundfighting there is surely is not the drawn out tactical game one finds in dedicated grappling arts.

Bottom line to me is that if someone integrates it in their practice more power to them, but it is not historically a part of Karate, and I find it a little silly anyone would suggest otherwise. Is someone saying this or are we just arguing methods of training for modern Karateka?

Ian Abernethy appears to have a simple but functional groundfighting program integrated into his Karate, but even he states in his books that for the most part this sort of fighting is absent from traditional Kata.

I've been through the Kata syllabus of Goju and Shorin with some depth (much more so Goju though) and personally I just don't buy the existence of detailed groundfighting in the tradition.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/05/08 07:19 PM)

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#384167 - 03/05/08 07:41 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling [Re: BrianS]
Usenthemighty Offline
Member

Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 78
Loc: Nash hood , TN
Always turns into a Karate Kata and ground fighting debate. I always saw it like this: If you fight and somehow end up on the ground, and continue fighting, then your ground fighting. Did they do that in 1920 shotokan, Goju Ryu, and Kyokushin(can't spell)? Don't know don't care because I wasn't alive and I do that anyway.

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#384168 - 03/05/08 08:10 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539



Quote:


This should be above.
Just a small point. Punches, forarm strikes, palm strikes etc are found in kata while performed standing. They are also used on the deck. Conditioning the limbs is also done standing but the result is applied on the deck, groundwork.

Jude





Quote:


None of that is what i'd consider groundwork in the proper sense, obviously mounting someone and punching him could be said to be implicit in some techniques though.





Ground fighting
Knee on belly, Uki Gatame, Reference Renzo Gracie BJJ.
Punching / striking while in Uki Gatame= ground work.
One knee on the floor and striking = groundwork

Quote:


However I stand by my feelings that the philosophy of Karate is short paced (and mostly percussive) exhanges




Can be done standing kneeling and groundfighting.
Quote:



intended to break your opponent, not passing the guard or setting up juji gatame.




A form of Juji gatame can be done from Uke Gatami when applied from the side.
Passing the guard? Not sure if it is in kata.
Quote:


Whatever groundfighting there is surely is not the drawn out tactical game one finds in dedicated grappling arts.




Not sure yet.
Quote:


Bottom line to me is that if someone integrates it in their practice more power to them, but it is not historically a part of Karate




Well a small amount of ground fighting is integrated in to my karate.
I would rather not be on the deck but more fool me if I donít prepare for it.
Quote:



Ian Abernethy appears to have a simple but functional groundfighting program integrated into his Karate, but even he states in his books that for the most part this sort of fighting is absent from traditional Kata.





Ian Abernethy is in the main Wado. Jujitsu based karate. I like his works. There are loads of katas not touched by some people.

Quote:


I've been through the Kata syllabus of Goju and Shorin with some depth (much more so Goju though) and personally I just don't buy the existence of detailed groundfighting in the tradition.





Time will tell how much there is.


Quote:


Be carefull of the tongue. It tends to come out of the mouth." ok, i gotta ask...what?






SOL.

The technique I described with the choke. It was used in early UFC. The result if applied is the tongue shoots out of the person who has it done to them.

Brian.


I read what you guys discuss and argue about. Then I research further valid point made by you or anybody else.

Just a small point. I donít think white crane was the greatest chinese influence on karate. It was other chinese arts. The ones I am looking at do have some ground grappling. Time will tell though.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/05/08 08:37 PM)

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#384169 - 03/05/08 08:23 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Quote:

I've been through the Kata syllabus of Goju and Shorin with some depth (much more so Goju though) and personally I just don't buy the existence of detailed groundfighting in the tradition.




Correct. No one is arguing that there is "detailed groundfighting in the tradition." Just the basics. One reason why in karate we grapple without the gi. And the same reason Kyan took his kimono off and stripped to his underwear when he fought a judoka. BJJ gi work is too complicated. One important thing to note is how karate was taught orginally. The okinawans had no complex system of technique names and such. They would simply say put your hand here or place your hand there. These are not all concrete ideas we are working with. Some are very abstract principles. In the same way a hold I obtain on someone to throw them can also be used to pin them to the ground. Anyone who has any legit grappling training would have put this into use many times.
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#384170 - 03/06/08 12:44 AM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Well if what people are referring to as groundfighting is to mean the same simple Karate specific tactics applied on the ground then i'd be in the same boat.

Don't you guys think though that maybe it's good at times to step back and look at what is the strategy of Karate and put the grappling in perspective?

Sometimes it seems to me that the Karate world is currently so in love with the idea of grappling in Karate that we confuse the main point of what we are doing, which is quick and efficient dispatch.

Jude: I think it's hard to call Wado-Ryu "Jujutsu based Karate", they do some Jujutsu waza but the Kata syllabus is (as far as I know) essentially similar to the other Japanese Shorin-based styles.

I'm not sure if Ian Abernethy's kata analysis is neccessarily related to his being Wado, there are plenty of Wado schools that don't seem to do anything like what he does.

Yeah I know Juji Gatame can be applied standing and in a variety of manners, I just don't think it should be priority #1 in Karate, as we've discussed elsewhere.

It's great to know and practice that stuff, I just think people lose perspective sometimes with the grappling in Karate thing.

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#384171 - 03/06/08 09:02 AM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Well if what people are referring to as groundfighting is to mean the same simple Karate specific tactics applied on the ground then i'd be in the same boat.

Don't you guys think though that maybe it's good at times to step back and look at what is the strategy of Karate and put the grappling in perspective?

Sometimes it seems to me that the Karate world is currently so in love with the idea of grappling in Karate that we confuse the main point of what we are doing, which is quick and efficient dispatch.





That is in an ideal world. But dont you think that sometimes it wouldnt always work that way and could get long and drawn out.? I need to know what most grapplers have. I also need to know how to get out of certain moves. The only way I can get to know is by studying grappling.
.
Quote:



Jude: I think it's hard to call Wado-Ryu "Jujutsu based Karate", they do some Jujutsu waza but the Kata syllabus is (as far as I know) essentially similar to the other Japanese Shorin-based styles.





Yes and I think in the main most just use the kata for gradings.
Quote:


I'm not sure if Ian Abernethy's kata analysis is neccessarily related to his being Wado,




I havent studied all his works. The stuff that I have seems jujitsu orientated.
Some chinese methods and I would venture to say some Okinawan methods seem different than western ideas of fighting. But I can only comment on the stuff I have studied. Still to early to make a hard and fast opinion.

Quote:


there are plenty of Wado schools that don't seem to do anything like what he does.




Yes and some end up dropping kata.

Quote:


Yeah I know Juji Gatame can be applied standing and in a variety of manners, I just don't think it should be priority #1 in Karate, as we've discussed elsewhere.

It's great to know and practice that stuff, I just think people lose perspective sometimes with the grappling in Karate thing.




Well seen as I trained primaraly on strikes I had to come to terms with the fact there are some good grapplers out there. So had to change somethings or get left behind.

Still studying.

Jude

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#384172 - 03/06/08 11:09 AM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
these things have been said 100 times already.
_________________________
its not supposed to make sense

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#384173 - 03/06/08 12:19 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: student_of_life]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Ok, Lets meditate and remove the impatient outlook(s) on life.





Topic
Anyhow back to the topic. Cross training with karate?
Bareknuckle boxing?
Nope I think most of the techniques found in bareknuckle were/ are already in most trad karate kata.
Gloved boxing?
Nope, unless its karate with gloves which isnt realy trad karate anymore.
Further study/ cross training in BJJ? wrestling? old style judo?
Def need of .

Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/06/08 12:24 PM)

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