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#384204 - 03/08/08 05:50 AM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:


Well thanks for the concern Jude,




Thats fine Zach, anytime.
AS I have already stated somewhere. I train grappling, the type I train is more like old style judo combind with mixed martial arts. Most of the guys I train with have had MMA bouts. Some havent. I also train with a few thai boxers and boxers.

The guys I train with are just guys who want to train , like me.

The top guy name dropping part? If I want to try to B/S and look good by merely posting a name to back/ bluff my assumptions thats easy. Nip over and train with Iain machine Freeman on an open mat day.
Then state who I have trained with.

Not my style Zach I dont realy need such ego trip.s My attempts at mushin wont allow me

Zach, can I ask a question? Did you at some time try to study karate history and draw a blank?
What I post is in the main speculation and as all history best guess work.
.
History of Jujitsu, Japanese, one of the big infleunces is thought to be from Chen Yuanein. Who was chinese by the way.
So a Japanese art? furthered by chinese arts? Practiced by all sorts? Techniques of which seem to be in karate?
Did they arive in Okinawa via the chinese population?
I will let you work out the rest.
Karate evolved through cross training.
Techniques that are perhaps lost should be in the kata.
Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/08/08 06:21 AM)

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#384205 - 03/08/08 06:56 AM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: medulanet]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

You know, ground work in a fight is usually only prolonged if you are not good at it (you can't finish your opponent or you can't get up). And sometimes it is very short if your not good at it(you get your limbs broken, you get choked out, or you get knocked out). I don't think anyone has prolonged groundwork as a strategy. In fact, I'll do you one better and say that prolonged striking is not contained within classical kata. However, in training to develop skills you can engage in prolonged striking training sessions. Training methods to develop skill are different from classical kata. I personally believe that that is a big mistake many people are making. They are confusing principles of fighting contained in classical kata with training methods. I personally look at grappling training the same way I view weight lifting or sprint training or hojo undo or calesthenics. It is a training method to develop a skill set. That is why Kyan's father trained him in a form of wrestling before he began classical karate training.





I already believe this to be true.
I think my study in to karate history might bring up more conclusive proof at some time.

Jude

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#384206 - 03/08/08 02:42 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: jude33]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Just a general question, how much time must you train to gain something from cross training.

I find all arts have more layers than most begin to explore. Taking time cross training does mean you're not working deeper into your art.

Personally I've gone both ways. I have trained with many people outside of my system (Not to cross train but to have partners to train with). I did learn a lot, but in time found how much was in my own art that caused me to walk away from those studies (and they were and are good).

IMO there are absolutely no limitations in any art, there are just limitations of people trying to use what they have.

Every strike in karate is a strike, it is an armbar, it is a counter to a grab from the rear, you move that step is to disrupt an opponents leg, or even disrupt their instep so surgeons get large payments, you may practice straight line movement, but in application it might be at any angle to an attack.

The arts people want to cross train in, in themselves are vast studies. Will a little study really give you scope to use it?

The Okinawan cluture had it own local sumo/sport grappling tradition and many of karate's counters exist solely to defeat those trying to place you on the ground in their traditions.

One art is rarely better than the other, they're more entirely different approaches to train beginners.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#384207 - 03/08/08 03:38 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: Victor Smith]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
[Hi Victor.

My main art is and always will be karate. I agree in the main with your statement.
But If I am in the main correct with my assumptions as regards the escape of the knee on the chest being in tekki then how would I train to use it? In fact that would back up my thought process. If the knee on the chest existed in okinawan wrestling then more the reason the escape is in tekki.

The mechanics of the moves would be in the kata.
I can practice it as a two man drill.
But how can I then practice such a move against a live opponent thus counter attacking and / or getting back to my feet?

I think in judo the term would be randori.
Then in shiai.

If it is none striking randori and I have practiced and drilled my striking techiques/ kept up with conditioning/
fitness/ drilled and practiced arm bars and chokes ( no gi and with gi).
Then I will be be better able to see the application of striking during live practice.

And gain some grappling skills.

Its the same as working with the boxers/ thai boxers.
Getting use to working technique against a live opponent.



It was refered to early in the thread about being nonesense to think that simple bunkia would work against a grappler.
So if the simple bunkia is made to work in a grappling scenario?

I always take your valid points on board Victor.
Quote:


Every strike in karate is a strike, it is an armbar, it is a counter to a grab from the rear, you move that step is to disrupt an opponents leg, or even disrupt their instep so surgeons get large payments, you may practice straight line movement, but in application it might be at any angle to an attack.




I always take your valid points on board Victor. I tend to look at what you and some others post and research further.


The " surgeons get large payments" part of karate I have some knowledge of but am still learning is trained seperate.


Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/08/08 03:58 PM)

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#384208 - 03/08/08 04:28 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: jude33]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Jude,

Training even part of the range of kata application is not necessarily simple. Some are dangerous even in slow motion, this is where 'art' comes it, to find the range of application study drills to explore the full potential.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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