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#384154 - 03/05/08 10:52 AM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling [Re: janxspirit]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


I don't think I've ever seen any groundifghting in kata.

Not that it would matter, you can't learn to ground fight from a kata, I don't think?




Sigh....no one on here thinks simple performance of the kata will teach you how to use a technique, or how to fight. You need a partner and varying degrees of resistance for that obviously, it's a question of interpretation of the techniques.

There is alot more to kata training than the solo performance, in fact that is just the tip of the iceberg.

I've never met anyone in all my years of Karate who thought doing a solo Kata would magically teach you how to fight, that's what we call a red herring, funnily enough often presented by people who want to discredit or otherwise poke fun at Karate.

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#384155 - 03/05/08 02:34 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: student_of_life]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

the cross stepping in tekki can be used for all kinds of low kicks/stamps, sweeps, and trips. if you want to take it to the ground cause the legs are crossed go for it.




Its not so much about me taking it to the ground, my goal is to put my opponent there and stay up. However, sh*t happens and you may find that your opponent put you there. As far as the stand up stuff, I haven't really thou...oh, wait a second yes I have. Student, of course the naihanchi leg techs provide a wealth of stand up application. In fact in okinawan karate stand up fighting is primary. However, the okinawans believed in insurance, and I'm not talking about State Farm. Check out a few of these threads where I discussed some of the application of Naihanchi leg techniques from a standing position, among other things.

Naihanchi Thread

Bunkai Thread
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#384156 - 03/05/08 02:46 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: student_of_life]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

cause you love tooting that horn? lol. that all sounds good man, im limited by whats around me however.




I don't know about tooting my own horn. Wouldn't I just agree with the majority and actually look for people to agree with me if I wanted that? Maybe I'm not good at all in this whole karate thing and maybe I like messing with people's minds, or maybe I didn't know that I was supposed to limit myself and my training based on how others view karate. I don't know. For me grappling has always been a part of fighting. This is probably because I started karate in 1990 and I started wrestling in 1990 as well. I have always been game to take the fight to my opponent where ever it may go. And I have always seen wrestling principles in my karate. I saw it at 14 and I still see it at 31. I just understand a little bit better what I was seeing. I really think its all about one's experiences. Everyone's karate is different. There should be somethings that are the same, but the longer you study the more one's karate becomes unique to them. Or at least that was how I was taught. I try to leave the cookie cutter at home for the kids to use. I don't like cookies much anyway.
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#384157 - 03/05/08 03:28 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Med -

Quote:

For me grappling has always been a part of fighting. This is probably because I started karate in 1990 and I started wrestling in 1990 as well.




Pretty sure this is what Zach was referring to earlier:

Quote:

Med, it sounds like your grappling experience has informed your view of Naihanchi kata and not the other way around, is that accurate?




The idea being that had you NOT done wrestling, you likely wouldn't have seen all the kata/groundfighting connections. A well supported assumption when looking at the majority of other karate practitioners. Fine if you want to see the connections yourself. Stretching it badly to imply that the kata/ground connections were "always there", or that someone else's training is "impure" or whatever by lacking them.
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#384158 - 03/05/08 03:47 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA


I'd still maintain that an analysis of Naihanchi kata based on groundfighting is a bit of a stretch, but if you can make it work then I suppose that is ok.

Also only someone with wrestling or what have you experience is gonna be able to teach the techniques, and let's be honest most bunkai for Naihanchin kata don't involve ground fighting.


Quote:

There should be somethings that are the same, but the longer you study the more one's karate becomes unique to them. Or at least that was how I was taught. I try to leave the cookie cutter at home for the kids to use. I don't like cookies much anyway.




On this we are definitely in agreement, except I really like cookies.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/05/08 03:53 PM)

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#384159 - 03/05/08 04:06 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Matt, I never said anyone's training was impure because their karate lacked the grappling applications I practice. However, if you see an underhook in kata and use it standing and have no understanding of how it can be similarly used on the ground I would say your knowledge of grappling and fighting is lacking.
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#384160 - 03/05/08 05:48 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: medulanet]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
you've got some way with words.
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#384161 - 03/05/08 05:49 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling [Re: janxspirit]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



I don't think I've ever seen any groundifghting in kata.

Not that it would matter, you can't learn to ground fight from a kata, I don't think?




A karate students perspective on the art of karate ground fighting thus far but can get more detailed as progression in study and application against live opponents is made.

Skipping the how to get to the throw part being this is a ground-fighting in karate kata discussion .
Throw uke on to their backs. (Depending on throw) Remain standing
Keep hold of arm,
Depending on uke's response then ;
Shove knee in to throat or chest area hard.
Then either withdraw knee and stomp using bottom of foot to any target that presents itself or pound with opposite limb.
Or wanting to to get realy technical grab throat with open hand, let go of arm after applying choke and pound with opposite limb. Be carefull of the tongue. It tends to come out of the mouth. Which technique is dependent on target area and where and how uke and the thrower end up .

To remain on balance while standing it would be handy to practice those deep stances that some say have no use.

Just dont use the fist to the top of head if the case might be.

There are variations of the theme but there are a few techniques found in trad karate kata .
Of course as pointed out it has to be drilled. But go easy on the drill partner.(uke)

Knee on chest is the same classification as a mount in BJJ
is it not? Not to sure if they use a knee to the throat though. More than likely do but dont teach it. Bugs uke's to much I suppose.
Ther fore ground fighting.

If its BJJ you do then surely ne waza would have been recorded in some kata. Some where in the history ?

Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/05/08 06:12 PM)

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#384162 - 03/05/08 05:51 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: student_of_life]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

you've got some way with words.




Cos he is studies karate, he makes sense and its good, thats why.

Zach,
Quote:


I've never met anyone in all my years of Karate who thought doing a solo Kata would magically teach you how to fight, that's what we call a red herring, funnily enough often presented by people who want to discredit or otherwise poke fun at Karate.





Funny how we dont see to many of those types on these discussions? The conversation might be beyond their mental comprehension.


This should be above.
Just a small point. Punches, forarm strikes, palm strikes etc are found in kata while performed standing. They are also used on the deck. Conditioning the limbs is also done standing but the result is applied on the deck, groundwork.

Jude



Edited by jude33 (03/05/08 06:23 PM)

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#384163 - 03/05/08 06:43 PM Re: Karate - Cross training with boxing, grappling ?? [Re: jude33]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Quote:

you've got some way with words.




Cos he is studies karate, he makes sense and its good, thats why.

Zach,
Quote:


I've never met anyone in all my years of Karate who thought doing a solo Kata would magically teach you how to fight, that's what we call a red herring, funnily enough often presented by people who want to discredit or otherwise poke fun at Karate.





Funny how we dont see to many of those types on these discussions? The conversation might be beyond their mental comprehension.


This should be above.
Just a small point. Punches, forarm strikes, palm strikes etc are found in kata while performed standing. They are also used on the deck. Conditioning the limbs is also done standing but the result is applied on the deck, groundwork.

Jude






No jude, it's because he twists things around, which is why I have stayed out of this silly "debate" until now.

Would it be silly for me to assume that a groundfighting application would be in a kata done from the ground?

The thing is people don't want to believe that their style is lacking in any area,but the fact is that karate is done standing up, not on the ground as some would have you to believe. And by people I mean medulanet.

There is nothing wrong with practicing ground techniques(I do) and karate practitioners may very well get good at it, but in my opinion it is wrong to say that this has always been in karate and everyone else just isn't "seeing" it. There is no proof that I have seen that says otherwise.
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